Class 456's on the move?

[Emblematic]

It doesn't make any difference whether they're green or red, they're still "Pants" (Just to avoid a rollocking from the mods)

Unless they do change of IO cards on them when they refurb them, then they'll still be rubbish, however the only true way to make them better will be to retraction them, either using refurbished camshafts off of the 455s as they come off them or the new AC tractions systems as per the 455s.

You have to remember that the chopper controls were removed from the 455/9s because their reliability was so darn poor and they were replaced by the standard air/oil camshaft system that's currently under the 455 fleet.

I've already lost count on the number of failures the 456s have had since we've had them, many down to traction, so they'd be better off dumping the old chopper traction and using a refurbished camshaft as they're more reliable.

They will never get camshafts. The whole point of the AC traction exercise is to free depot space by reducing servicing on the 455 fleet, adding old equipment to the 456s would be counterproductive, and assumes that room could be found for the old stuff. If this AC conversion is even half-way competent, then a 455 pair should be able to haul or shove a coupled 456 around without stress even if the latter has it's motors tripped out. I don't see 456s running other than as part of 10 car sets once the platforms are all lengthened, and Southern managed to operate them as single units without the sky falling in.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It doesn't make any difference whether they're green or red, they're still "Pants" (Just to avoid a rollocking from the mods)

Unless they do change of IO cards on them when they refurb them, then they'll still be rubbish, however the only true way to make them better will be to retraction them, either using refurbished camshafts off of the 455s as they come off them or the new AC tractions systems as per the 455s.

You have to remember that the chopper controls were removed from the 455/9s because their reliability was so darn poor and they were replaced by the standard air/oil camshaft system that's currently under the 455 fleet.

I've already lost count on the number of failures the 456s have had since we've had them, many down to traction, so they'd be better off dumping the old chopper traction and using a refurbished camshaft as they're more reliable.

If the IO cards are just circuit boards, the components on the circuit boards might be becoming life expired. Is the weight of a 456's complete traction package a sizeable chunk of the unit's overall weight?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You'd have to look at the data for 456s to see how much the weights of the DM & DT differ, from that you should be able to approximate how much the traction system adds to the weight.

As for the new AC stuff I don't know how much that weighs.

@Emblematic, the problem is that there's quite a few pairs of 456s booked to run, particularly on the Guildford - Ascot route, one cannot haul another over the steep banks on that route, without problems. I and many other drivers know how bad it can get when that happens and speed drops to a maximum of ~30-35 mph and the TINs & delay minutes mount. Not that WICC seems to give a damn. :roll:

Whilst a newly retractioned 455 may be able to quite happily haul a single 456 around all day, it doesn't do it any good and it just slows things down. The BR chopper control needs to be removed & replaced as it's unreliable and causes delays when it plays up. So SW really do need to order some extra AC stuff, so they can do the 456s and make the traction completely uniform across the 455 & 456 fleets.

 

[Feathers44]

They will never get camshafts. The whole point of the AC traction exercise is to free depot space by reducing servicing on the 455 fleet, adding old equipment to the 456s would be counterproductive, and assumes that room could be found for the old stuff. If this AC conversion is even half-way competent, then a 455 pair should be able to haul or shove a coupled 456 around without stress even if the latter has it's motors tripped out. I don't see 456s running other than as part of 10 car sets once the platforms are all lengthened, and Southern managed to operate them as single units without the sky falling in.

Assuming the projected useful service life of the 456s is the same as that of the 455s (and why would it not be) I assume that the same economic arguement for re-tractioning could be made for one fleet as for the other.

Taking the quoted exam cycles for the different classes/traction combinations earlier in the thread as fact, the debate over the camshaft retrofit is surely also down to the exonomics of a 33% extension in cycle time as opposed to the 100% improvement for the AC package.

 

[Emblematic]

You'd have to look at the data for 456s to see how much the weights of the DM & DT differ, from that you should be able to approximate how much the traction system adds to the weight.

As for the new AC stuff I don't know how much that weighs.

@Emblematic, the problem is that there's quite a few pairs of 456s booked to run, particularly on the Guildford - Ascot route, one cannot haul another over the steep banks on that route, without problems. I and many other drivers know how bad it can get when that happens and speed drops to a maximum of ~30-35 mph and the TINs & delay minutes mount. Not that WICC seems to give a damn. :roll:

Whilst a newly retractioned 455 may be able to quite happily haul a single 456 around all day, it doesn't do it any good and it just slows things down. The BR chopper control needs to be removed & replaced as it's unreliable and causes delays when it plays up. So SW really do need to order some extra AC stuff, so they can do the 456s and make the traction completely uniform across the 455 & 456 fleets.

Right now the problem is that they are being used as 4-car sets, and if one unit fails, as you point out, the other doesn't have the grunt to keep the set running to time - so twice the frequency of failures of running 2 cars. But by the time they fit any replacement control of any type, they will come back to be used as 10 car sets, and the issue is lessened (albeit far from perfect.)
What needs to happen is SWT fleet need to get to grips with the problems. The traction package is basically the same as the 319s and not fundamentally unreliable. The 319s had teething problems when sent north but soon settled down. Maybe some of the components do need attention, not unreasonable for 25-year old electronics.
In the meantime, It would be sensible to keep the 456s in larger sets, maybe using them less between the peaks, until they are sorted. That's not going to happen though, is it.

Assuming the projected useful service life of the 456s is the same as that of the 455s (and why would it not be) I assume that the same economic arguement for re-tractioning could be made for one fleet as for the other.

Taking the quoted exam cycles for the different classes/traction combinations earlier in the thread as fact, the debate over the camshaft retrofit is surely also down to the exonomics of a 33% extension in cycle time as opposed to the 100% improvement for the AC package.

Unfortunately the economic argument isn't the same; The drive for the 455 retraction is to create enough maintenance capacity to accommodate the 707s. The alternative is a new or enlarged depot. Once you've achieved that, the savings for reducing maintenance further are substantially less. If the problems with the 456s look like they will cause problems with depot maintenance capacity, retraction might be considered - but so might extending the 707 order.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

My gut feeling is that SWT will have to bite the bullet and retraction the 456s as the electronics must be getting near life expired

 

[Emblematic]

I don't see anything happening until franchise renewal now. It may well be part of the new franchise bids, particularly if they remain unreliable for the next 18 months.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

My gut feeling is that SWT will have to bite the bullet and retraction the 456s as the electronics must be getting near life expired

I think you have hit the proverbial nail, squarely on the head there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will all classes of multiple units and locos built around the same sort of era/time that use electronics in part of their traction package have to have their traction package replaced at some point in the next few years (or at least the circuit boards replaced)?

 

[Emblematic]

Will all classes of multiple units and locos built around the same sort of era/time that use electronics in part of their traction package have to have their traction package replaced at some point in the next few years (or at least the circuit boards replaced)?

It's hard to say precisely. All components fail eventually, and some, such as electrolytic capacitors, have a predictably finite life. Temperature will have a large effect, chemical reaction rates roughly double for every 10 degrees C rise in temperature and that causes a halving of service life for some components. A 100 degree rise causes a thousand-fold reduction, which is why so much effort is spent cooling electronic systems.
The replacement traction package fitted to some Networkers was quoted as having a 25 year design life, that seems reasonable and I wouldn't be surprised if existing systems experience increasing failures approaching these ages.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I was on 5741+5737+456002 my first passenger turn on a 456 and no probs.You're welcome.

 

[Y186520]

Last day in traffic tomorrow for the green ones.

Work to prepare them for Wolverton trip starts straight after.

 

[TEW]

Reported elsewhere that yesterday was the last day in traffic for the Green pair. They certainly weren't out in service today, 3 red 456 pairs and 2 450s on Guildford-Ascot services today.

 

[nlogax]

Reported elsewhere that yesterday was the last day in traffic for the Green pair. They certainly weren't out in service today, 3 red 456 pairs and 2 450s on Guildford-Ascot services today.

Think they've been parked up at Wimbledon beside the mainline all day today.

 

[dgl]

Saw a green 456 hooked up to a 455 at Northam a few moments ago

 

[Bigfoot]

Saw a green 456 hooked up to a 455 at Northam a few moments ago

Visiting the lathe.

 

[Juniper Driver]

After 7 months without a 456 turn I get two in a week.Booked a turn tomorrow.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Visiting the lathe.

Wish it was visiting the oxyacetylene torch.

 

[ARoo21]

Reported elsewhere that yesterday was the last day in traffic for the Green pair. They certainly weren't out in service today, 3 red 456 pairs and 2 450s on Guildford-Ascot services today.

Was a green pair parked up at Wimbledon CSD outside by the mainline yesterday.

456 017 (deffo) and 007 (I think) were one red pair on Guildford to Ascot Services.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Two loaders noted parked outside the crew block at Wimbledon Park this lunchtime, so that would suggest either the arrival of one or the departure of one of the final two.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Worked with 456024+456010+455724,don't think I will forget yesterday in a hurry.Oh yeah forgot to say,the cabs are very retro and remind me a lot of the 321 fleet which I did my driving assessment on just over 25 years ago.Also saw green leading a red @ Surbiton yesterday I would guess on their way to Wimbledon Park.Afternoon time.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Also saw green leading a red @ Surbiton yesterday I would guess on their way to Wimbledon Park. Afternoon time.

Could that have been the return working from Northam? When I was in Southampton yesterday morning a red one was in the lathe building, with the green at the London end.

Does that mean, by the way, that whatever the limitation was on using them in mixed pairs it was a 'passenger only' issue?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Could that have been the return working from Northam? When I was in Southampton yesterday morning a red one was in the lathe building, with the green at the London end.

Does that mean, by the way, that whatever the limitation was on using them in mixed pairs it was a 'passenger only' issue?

I would guess so.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Saw a green 456 hooked up to a 455 at Northam a few moments ago

Saw a Green + 5871 at Wimbledon on the up slow on Thursday afternoon

 

[TEW]

Does that mean, by the way, that whatever the limitation was on using them in mixed pairs it was a 'passenger only' issue?

Would make sense given then green 456s have worked with 455s on ECS and test movements.

 

[Pumbaa]

Could that have been the return working from Northam? When I was in Southampton yesterday morning a red one was in the lathe building, with the green at the London end.



Does that mean, by the way, that whatever the limitation was on using them in mixed pairs it was a 'passenger only' issue?

Yes. The PIS/CfA systems were totally different. The root issue was the the driver would have been totally unaware of any emergency buttons being pressed in any unit other than the one they were driving from.

 

[JB25]

Actually got on a 456 for the first time under SWT control today. They have done an amazing job on them. I used to hate travelling on them when we had them as they were so drab and dreary inside, but now they are bright and spacious.

I also see they have changed the crap aws reset button we used to have to put up with, and the lights now actually work rather than being there for effect.

 

[WarrenTManager]

6022 split and being loaded to do one up North.

 

[Defiance149]

6022 split and being loaded to do one up North.

Reported elsewhere that 456022 went on Friday so should have been 456013 tonight, or have they gone the other way round? There's certainly been two moves.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Actually got on a 456 for the first time under SWT control today. They have done an amazing job on them. I used to hate travelling on them when we had them as they were so drab and dreary inside, but now they are bright and spacious.

I also see they have changed the crap aws reset button we used to have to put up with, and the lights now actually work rather than being there for effect.

Still on the left hand side whereas every unit I seemed to have been on has been on the right hand side.