Class 456's on the move?

[TEW]

Anyone know how long these units are going to be on SWT till withdrawal? Will the 707's create a cascade effect?

The 707s will cause a stock reshuffle within SWT. The displaced 458/5s replace the 450s on the Reading line, and some of those 450s release 456s off Guildford-Ascot services. The extra 456s are then used to create more 10-car formations on Suburban services once Waterloo platforms are lengthened. Can't see the 456s going anywhere whilst the 455s are still around as they're needed for the 10-car services in the future.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Not that SSWT will have to worry about it, as it won't exist.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not that SSWT will have to worry about it, as it won't exist.

Surely that depends whether Stagecoach wins the new franchise in 2017...

 

[Bigfoot]

There is a separate thread for franchise based japery....

 

[infobleep]

When the cascade finally happens front eh 707s we will finally get the services that were announced as having additional coaches as actually having them.

Are their currently aby services that were amounted in the early press releases that have more coaches? I only seem to render reading about mainline services but perhaps I'm selectively remembering as at the time that was what interested me most.

 

[Juniper Driver]

There is a separate thread for franchise based japery....

Basically though I was asking about what the future was for the class 456's.Due to the 707's imminent and the cascade effect.

 

[TEW]

When the cascade finally happens front eh 707s we will finally get the services that were announced as having additional coaches as actually having them.

Are their currently aby services that were amounted in the early press releases that have more coaches? I only seem to render reading about mainline services but perhaps I'm selectively remembering as at the time that was what interested me most.

A lot of the services receiving additional coaches as a result of the 458/5 and 456 introduction have now been lengthened, and more will be lengthened as more 458/5s come into service.

 

[Emblematic]

Bear in mind the 707 order is only 30 sets, i.e 15 x 10 car trains. So it's more of a route reallocation than a cascade. Once all arrive, SWT will have the following 10 car sets available:

• 15 class 707+707
• 18 class 458+458
• 24 class 455+455+456

i.e. 57 trains total
which still leaves 43 class 455 and 127 class 450 units to run as 4/8/12 car sets. The 456s will be needed until the 455s are replaced.

 

[Juniper Driver]

30 sets with 20 more optional.Bit like the desiros when they built 110 and added 17 more.

 

[Emblematic]

Cheers - I thought there was an option but couldn't find a reference or recall the numbers. That might allow additional routes to go 10 car, and may release some 455s. It would make sense to decide on that option early, so the 455 retraction can be scaled back to suit. I guess the SWT franchise renewal determines that now.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Cheers - I thought there was an option but couldn't find a reference or recall the numbers. That might allow additional routes to go 10 car, and may release some 455s. It would make sense to decide on that option early, so the 455 retraction can be scaled back to suit. I guess the SWT franchise renewal determines that now.

It would probably be sensible to take up the extra twenty but when has the railway ever been sensible?

 

[antharro]

Just rolled past Wimbledon depot very slowly. There was a 456 being offloaded from an Alleys low loader onto one of the roads behind the large shed, didn't see it's number.

 

[100andthirty]

Two cars seen just to the north of Milton Keynes Central station a day or three ago - 20 feet above the railway on the back of low loaders! Assume they were on their way to Wolverton

 

[WarrenTManager]

Just rolled past Wimbledon depot very slowly. There was a 456 being offloaded from an Alleys low loader onto one of the roads behind the large shed, didn't see it's number.

6007 I think
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Two cars seen just to the north of Milton Keynes Central station a day or three ago - 20 feet above the railway on the back of low loaders! Assume they were on their way to Wolverton

''Twas 6008

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Hope they do something with the traction system at the same time, those two have a nasty habit of getting stuck at low speed.

 

[ARoo21]

456 017 was on Ascot/Guildford duties - 2 trains are the refurbished 456's on the route while the 2 others are still to be refurbished.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Just rolled past Wimbledon depot very slowly. There was a 456 being offloaded from an Alleys low loader onto one of the roads behind the large shed, didn't see it's number.

Presumably it's cheaper to transport them carriage by carriage by road than hiring a locomotive and match-wagon and running them down by rail.

A few years back I was driving up the M40 and saw new tube carriages on low-loaders, one after the other, coming along towards London.

 

[100andthirty]

These were the 2009 Tube Stock for the Victoria Line which were made to the slightly larger size of the Victoria Line tunnels, so couldn't be guaranteed to fit the Piccadilly line for a rail transfer. The result; I know several people who can stand upright on a tube train for the first time ever!

 

[infobleep]

When all the 456s have been introduced and all the other trains such as the 458/5s are in service, will it reduce the morning delays that occur through Wimbledon and Clapham Junction on the metro lines?

The 8.20 Waterloo to Woking is regularly 4 minutes late leaving Clapham Junction due to it being delayed inwards. Will more carriages help trains such as this run on time? Or is it simply the London Bridge works causing these sorts of trains to get delayed inwards as more people use them than otherwise would?

 

[swt_passenger]

When all the 456s have been introduced and all the other trains such as the 458/5s are in service, will it reduce the morning delays that occur through Wimbledon and Clapham Junction on the metro lines?

The 8.20 Waterloo to Woking is regularly 4 minutes late leaving Clapham Junction due to it being delayed inwards. Will more carriages help trains such as this run on time? Or is it simply the London Bridge works causing these sorts of trains to get delayed inwards as more people use them than otherwise would?

Not really, because a basic assumption of railway time tabling is that the same number of trains, but running in longer formations, will always increase delays to a certain extent. If you think about it a ten car train must take 25% longer to enter or leave a platform at Waterloo, or to cross a flat junction etc etc.

If any trains appear to be running faster because loading and unloading times have improved, this will only be for a short time until passengers transfer to different trains nearer to their own ideal travel times.

The high peak trains will see no improvement in other words as they will attract passengers who are presently advancing or delaying their optimal journey time in search of space.

 

[infobleep]

Not really, because a basic assumption of railway time tabling is that the same number of trains, but running in longer formations, will always increase delays to a certain extent. If you think about it a ten car train must take 25% longer to enter or leave a platform at Waterloo, or to cross a flat junction etc etc.

If any trains appear to be running faster because loading and unloading times have improved, this will only be for a short time until passengers transfer to different trains nearer to their own ideal travel times.

The high peak trains will see no improvement in other words as they will attract passengers who are presently advancing or delaying their optimal journey time in search of space.

Thanks for explaining that. Makes sense. So in other words more trains means more minor delays unless one can modify a timetable to take this into account, which is unlikely in this particular case, given the number of trains running in the peak.

 

[jopsuk]

Not really, because a basic assumption of railway time tabling is that the same number of trains, but running in longer formations, will always increase delays to a certain extent. If you think about it a ten car train must take 25% longer to enter or leave a platform at Waterloo, or to cross a flat junction etc etc. .

That 25% is good for a first approximation, but it does of course end up even more than that This is why there's no appetite to carry out works to increase terminals for suburban trains beyond 200m or 250m (absolute max)- the longer times across junctions, the longer signal sections et end up reducing capacity. For High Speed 400m is OK as frequency is usually expected to be lower.

 

[Dr_Paul]

These were the 2009 Tube Stock for the Victoria Line which were made to the slightly larger size of the Victoria Line tunnels, so couldn't be guaranteed to fit the Piccadilly line for a rail transfer.

Yes, it was around that time. That explains it. Presumably the carriages were taken to the Victoria Line depot in North London, as I believe that's the only place where the line reaches the surface.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It seems that the time is nearly here for the final two green ones to go to the works, the last two are 022 & 013 bounding along towards Ascot from Guildford today.

At least two services are formed of 450's to my knowledge and another formed of red 456s.

 

[Y186520]

It seems that the time is nearly here for the final two green ones to go to the works, the last two are 022 & 013 bounding along towards Ascot from Guildford today.

Expecting both to go next week with the aim of being at Wolverton by Friday.

As usual with SWT these days planned doesn't always mean it will happen.:roll:

 

[Juniper Driver]

456 debut Friday.(10 Car)

 

[causton]

456 debut Friday.(10 Car)

Hmm! I'm RD Friday...!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Hmm! I'm RD Friday...!

I've driven a green in training and a red on empties to Wimbledon via Hampton Court but first this will be first time in service,plus empties after.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've driven a green in training and a red on empties to Wimbledon via Hampton Court but first this will be first time in service,plus empties after.

It doesn't make any difference whether they're green or red, they're still "Pants" (Just to avoid a rollocking from the mods)

Unless they do change of IO cards on them when they refurb them, then they'll still be rubbish, however the only true way to make them better will be to retraction them, either using refurbished camshafts off of the 455s as they come off them or the new AC tractions systems as per the 455s.

You have to remember that the chopper controls were removed from the 455/9s because their reliability was so darn poor and they were replaced by the standard air/oil camshaft system that's currently under the 455 fleet.

I've already lost count on the number of failures the 456s have had since we've had them, many down to traction, so they'd be better off dumping the old chopper traction and using a refurbished camshaft as they're more reliable.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They are very similar to 455's though?

I've had numerous problems on the 458/5s so can these ben any worse apart from the TMs+Chopper?