Class 456s and 460s

[455/8]

SWT wouldn't need to have 2 guards in a 455/456 hybrid as you would have 2 compitent people in each part of the train which if i am correct is the requirement of the rules, the driver would be a compitent person in the front part of the train and the guard would be a compitent person in the rear part of the train, which is what happens with the 458s in 8 car formations that don't have the corridor connection in place between the units, the driver is in the front unit and us guards will need to work the train from the leading cab of the rear unit covering the passengers in the whole 8 carriages thus solving the problem.

Alan

 

[ChampsRacing]

SWT wouldn't need to have 2 guards in a 455/456 hybrid as you would have 2 compitent people in each part of the train which if i am correct is the requirement of the rules, the driver would be a compitent person in the front part of the train and the guard would be a compitent person in the rear part of the train, which is what happens with the 458s in 8 car formations that don't have the corridor connection in place between the units, the driver is in the front unit and us guards will need to work the train from the leading cab of the rear unit covering the passengers in the whole 8 carriages thus solving the problem.

Alan

Cheers

 

[GospelOak117]

Wikipedia no longer says the 456's are to move, so has the idea passed? It also claims the 458's will be reliveried, SWT suburban blue perhaps? Would look good!

 

[royaloak]

458004 has just been repainted into the normal colours.

 

[GospelOak117]

ah, opportunity missed there. Either they should be blue or the standard 450/0's should be white. There is no way the Reading Line should be 'express' while the Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole services are shown as 'suburban', in terms of livery.

On another note, the reformed 5-car 460's would go nicely on the Portsmouth Expresses, in the white 'express' livery with their current 2+2 seating layout, with 450's on the P&S/Haslemere stoppers.

 

[Goldfish62]

I saw 8004 the other and it has just had a heavy clean outside (as opposed to the inside, which on the 458s is never cleaned!). SWT themselves have said a different livery will be applied from later this year/early next year when the main interior refurbishment starts. Presumably this will depend on whether they stay on the Reading (blue) or become 5-car inner-suburban units (red).

 

[Helvellyn]

ah, opportunity missed there. Either they should be blue or the standard 450/0's should be white. There is no way the Reading Line should be 'express' while the Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole services are shown as 'suburban', in terms of livery.

They keep them in white because the 450/5 High Capacity units are blue. It helps the passengers identify which trains have First Class. When you had 450s on the Readings too, they never knew which were declassified or not!

 

[royaloak]

Which would indicate that the 450/5s should be vinyled up in red to match the 455s.

 

[ChampsRacing]

Which would indicate that the 450/5s should be vinyled up in red to match the 455s.

I agree with you royaloak the 450/5s should be painted red to distinguish them apart from the 450/0/1s.
458s for blue i think would suite them compared to a red colour.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, they should be red, but SWT will of course now wait to see the outcome of the 10-car project and whether it's 350s from LM or 460s.

My money is on the whole thing being scrapped post-election, meaning that 458s will remain on the Reading line, repainted blue and refurbed and the 450/5s will soldier on....err....unchanged.

 

[MCR247]

What good would 350s be? Where would they be used?

 

[ChampsRacing]

Presumably they would be used with 450/5s on the windsor side where they are struggling with capacity. I know that waterloos platforms are supposed to be revamped to accomidate 10car units even on the suburban side but whether that goes ahead or not is a different matter.

 

[thefab444]

I imagine the 350/1s, which are rightfully ours anyway, would be used on Portsmouth diagrams, displacing 450s for usage up in London. In addition there would be an order for some extra centre coaches to bring the 450/5s up to 5 car formation.

Unless they'd split up the 350s, but that wouldn't make much sense as we'd be left with a large number of driving cars.

 

[Goldfish62]

What good would 350s be? Where would they be used?

Siemens are bidding for the 10-car project by splitting up 350s and reforming with 450/5s, then new build for LM.

Porterbrook are bidding with 460s and 458s amalgamated.
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SWT wouldn't need to have 2 guards in a 455/456 hybrid as you would have 2 compitent people in each part of the train which if i am correct is the requirement of the rules, the driver would be a compitent person in the front part of the train and the guard would be a compitent person in the rear part of the train, which is what happens with the 458s in 8 car formations that don't have the corridor connection in place between the units, the driver is in the front unit and us guards will need to work the train from the leading cab of the rear unit covering the passengers in the whole 8 carriages thus solving the problem.

Alan

How come the need on SWT to have such a "safety" requirement when other TOCs manage to get by with just a driver in charge of a whole train whether or not it is gangwayed throughout? Surely it's actually a "political" policy to justify retention of guards - if it was based on safety then no TOC woulod be allowed to run DOO trains of more than one unit.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Don't make much sense in using 350/1s if its got a Panto because it can just cascade to other Parts of the UK that some decent AC Stock. But It also has Shoes so its really difficult to decide.

It would make sense to use 460s instead.

 

[MCR247]

Don't make much sense in using 350/1s if its got a Panto because it can just cascade to other Parts of the UK that some decent AC Stock. But It also has Shoes so its really difficult to decide.

It would make sense to use 460s instead.

Why doesn't it make sense?
a) Its as equally pointless using it on AC routes
b) Where needs decent AC stock ATM?

 

[Helvellyn]

Don't make much sense in using 350/1s if its got a Panto because it can just cascade to other Parts of the UK that some decent AC Stock. But It also has Shoes so its really difficult to decide.

Fit a pantograph to a 450 and you've got a 350/1. The vehicles for 350101-350130 were originally intended for SWT anyway. Along with the vehicles in 450101-450110 they would have made 32 5-car 450s (450201-450232). Funny that the SRA didn't go with the 10-car railway on the Windsor lines back then!

 

[ChampsRacing]

Guards are a part of the swt franchise if they get rid of them in this current franchise swt would loose it and it would go up for tender. Me being a guard for them currently i hope they keep guards on trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

Guards are a part of the swt franchise if they get rid of them in this current franchise swt would loose it and it would go up for tender. Me being a guard for them currently i hope they keep guards on trains.

This is true, and in your position I would totally agree. However, the position still remains that it is not unsafe to operate a british train of more than one unconnected unit with just a driver, or the driver and guard in the same section, because this is what happens elsewhere on the network.
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Why doesn't it make sense?
a) Its as equally pointless using it on AC routes
b) Where needs decent AC stock ATM?

Indeed - and if it didn't make sense why has Siemens, a multi-billion pound global business, put it forward as their bid?

 

[royaloak]

Don't make much sense in using 350/1s if its got a Panto because it can just cascade to other Parts of the UK that some decent AC Stock. But It also has Shoes so its really difficult to decide.

It would make sense to use 460s instead.

Why not just stick a panto on the roof of the 460s and move them around then? they are just as easy to do as all the wiring is in!

 

[Voyager 2093]

I would just move the 460s to SWT seen as they are gradually being ousted out by the 442s and there you go. Seen as 350/1s already have pantos just move them to the North West or wherever they are needed and move the 460s to SWT instead of shuffling them to different parts of the country for AC use because it would cost to add a Panto.

 

[MCR247]

I would just move the 460s to SWT seen as they are gradually being ousted out by the 442s and there you go. Seen as 350/1s already have pantos just move them to the North West or wherever they are needed and move the 460s to SWT instead of shuffling them to different parts of the country for AC use because it would cost to add a Panto.

How much do you think it will cost the rebuild the DMLFO whereas 350s are ready for use almost

 

[BlythPower]

I would just move the 460s to SWT seen as they are gradually being ousted out by the 442s and there you go. Seen as 350/1s already have pantos just move them to the North West or wherever they are needed and move the 460s to SWT instead of shuffling them to different parts of the country for AC use because it would cost to add a Panto.

The 350/1s are needed by London Midland! Most LM passengers, myself included would rather travel in a 350/1 than a 350/2.

 

[thefab444]

Nothing to say that any future builds for London Midland can't be low density, I imagine any 350/1 replacement orders would be.

 

[Dreadnought]

Nothing to say that any future builds for London Midland can't be low density, I imagine any 350/1 replacement orders would be.

Why not just build the new stock for SWT and leave the 350/1s where they are now.

 

[thefab444]

Not the faintest idea, that would make sense, but this is the DfT we're talking about here.

SWT could do with about 15 - 20 extra 444s, plus some centre cars for the 450/5s. This would then allow us to display about 15 - 20 450/0s which could move to London Midland. Sadly, the production line for 444s has closed, so I suspect we'd have to put up with a 350/1 style configuration.

 

[MCR247]

I don't think anymore 444s can be made (for some reason or an other), but more 350/450s can

 

[thefab444]

Yes, as I said, the production line has closed - I believe the 23m jigs have been destroyed.

 

[A60K]

Although that doesn't stop more being made, simply that the price of new jigs will need to be factored into the bids. I would think some changes would be necessary to incorporate the new front-end regulation requirements.

Personally I would rather like to see more 444-type stock, which could be a bit lighter (as with Desiro City). More could go to SWT for Weymouth/Portsmouth services, AC versions would potentially be useful for Liverpool Street to Norwich, Birmingham and Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh, and for southern West and East Coast semi-fast services as well. I'm sure the government is too poor to be able to afford any for the immediate future though.

 

[DjU]

AC versions would potentially be useful for Liverpool Street to Norwich, Birmingham and Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh, and for southern West and East Coast semi-fast services as well. I'm sure the government is too poor to be able to afford any for the immediate future though.

AC 444 were mooted for GEML back when they were being made, but that ended up as nothing.

The "plans" are for South WCML, South ECML, GEML to all be (the perpetually stalled) IEP using shorter interurban units (double up in peak).