Class 456s and 460s

[smitha1]

I read on wikipedia that the Class 456s/460s currently with Southern are going to transfer to South West Trains. I know you can't always trust wikipedia but has anyone got any info on whether this is true or not?

 

[MCR247]

Class 456s? First I've heard of that. But there are talks of southern taking on the 7 442s, giving the 460s to south west trains, to take the middle cars out and put them into 458s to make them 5 car, and making a set and of the rest

 

[Lampshade]

What would SWT do with the DMLFOs?

 

[MCR247]

I dont know? Convert them?

 

[Fincra5]

It is a stupid idea using 442s over 460s. The 460s are desgined for airport use, no other. 442s are have far to narrow doors and walk ways for an airport train.

If southern are going to go ahead with this crazy idea they should use the 442s on Brighton Expresss services and 377s on gatwick express.

 

[SWT Driver]

Well as I'm a driver on SWT, I've yet to hear if we're going to get the 456's, it would be an interesting solution and I've noticed that there's a considerable number of new "car stop" marks been installed all over the place, including as far South as Haslemere.

As for the 460's they can be broken up & inserted into the 458's as they're identical to them in just about every way, the only thing that's different is the driving vehicles, which could I suppose get re-engineered, so that either the cabs are removed & they're converted into MOSL's or they're re-engineered to have gangway connections added, not that the gangways on 458's are used by MOP anyway.

 

[Helvellyn]

Whether SWT gets the 460s depends on what option is picked for the 5-car trains on the Windsor Lines. The SWT invitation to tender specifies that they will consider new build or rebuilt units.

Now Southern have apparently indicated they are willing to take on the remaining 442s and return the 460s to Porterbrook. 8 orphaned units kicking about in store won't go down well with the DfT. Plus, Porterbrook might be prepared to come up with a good leasing deal to re-engineer the 458s and 460s.

Such a deal would allow the 458s to be kept as a dedicated fleet for specific services, whilst at the same time proving cheaper than new build stock to lease. The rebuild could extend to both units, and Modern Railways indicates new cabs could be considered so that the units could be walked through by passengers.

Not sure about 456s coming to SWT. Although they can work with the 455 units, their lack of end gangways would mean that they were isolated from the rest of the train. Okay, the 455s don't allow through passenger access between units, but at least the Guard can walk through.

But we'll have to wait and see - who knows what the DfT will require to be done!

 

[455/8]

I heard this rumor floating about the woking depot a few months/weeks ago now can't remember exactally how long it was and from what i hear yes SWT are supposed to be getting both the 460s and the 456s mostly for the windsor lines to free up 450s as they are short of them at the moment as they are faling to bits alot SWT were first going to order 5 car sets of the 450s but that plan was scrapped by the goverment then they tested 5 car 455s not sure what they decided about that but then this rumor o 456s and 460s coming over from southern has been floating around too which i think would be a good idea plus might be a new traction i have to learn too.

 

[asylumxl]

I really don't understand why the 460s need to be split, or why they need replacing..

 

[455/8]

its what we call on the job "railway logic" it makes no sense at all but they do it for the hell of it really i can understand the reason of shortening them because they are 8 car i belive and on the windsor road there are a couple of platforms that can only take 4/5 cars max and the 460s i don't think have SDO so if they were left in their current formations they would either not beable to call at these stations or cannot run the line so they wll have to be shortened

 

[Matt Taylor]

With regard to SDO, the 455s have operated on thye Windsor route for over 20 years without SDO installed so I would imagine a 460 would be just as suitable.

 

[class377man]

With regard to SDO, the 455s have operated on thye Windsor route for over 20 years without SDO installed so I would imagine a 460 would be just as suitable.

455s have Grandfather rights though, the 460s wouldn't.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I think wikipedia is wrong in saying about the class 456s but I know the class 460s are going to go back to SWT as they do not run the Gatwick Express franchise no more,and Southern dont want them so they are being transferred back while class 442s are taking over the gatwick express services.

Correct me if I am wrong anyone.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Class 455s operate the Weybridge route (via Hounslow) as a a 4-car. If they put a 8-car on there it would not be able to call at Isleworth and Chertesey (both directions) plus Virginia Water (Up), unless the Guard was going to do Local Door Operation only.

 

[455/8]

yes it is true the 455s have been working the windsor line as 8 cars but actually the way the 455s are designed an 8 car formation 455 can fit on the platforms at datchet and sunnymeads i don't actually sign the route my self but i know this to be true as its the same on the new line, epsom, dorking and chessy routes you can fit an 8 car 455 but you can't fit an 8 car 450 or 458 as the passenger doors are a little closer in on the 455s so they just fit on to the platforms and as far as i know all modern stock is not built in the same way so they have to use SDO as the passenger doors are either off the platform ramp or only half on so its not safe to open that one set of doors at either one or both ends of the train so guards have to use SDO to lock out the rear 4 carriages.

As for the weybridge or woking bay via staines route 455s only opperate 4 cars as chertsey, virginia water (up direction only) and isleworth are 4 car stations and to do local door on an 8 car 455 the guard would have to do it twice for the 2 separate parts of the train a local door for the front 4 and a local door for the rear 4 as offically passengers are not allowed to pass through the gangway between the 2 units but 9 out of 10 times control will issue a not to call order for the SDO stations in a 455 and as far as 458s are conserned if SDO is required the rear 4 would be lock out of use until the last SDO was complete as the guard has to be in the rear cab of the front unit (opposit way round from a desiro) and if there were any passengers in the rear 4 and a separation occured then there would be no member of staff in that unit to deal with the passengers so SWT policy states that the rear 4 is locked out of use unitl the last SDO station where the rear 4 car be opperated safely where the guard will then move to the leading cab of the rear unit confusing i know but this is why the 458s are used only on the reading road and the occasional guildford to ascot service and have not been sent to windsor and also why they 458s were taken off of weybridge services and replaced by 450s

 

[fgwrich]

"railway logic" it makes no sense at all

You got that right! - Something the TOC's seem to be losing day by day...

One thing i cant really understand is that these unit are Express units...unfortunatly desinged as part of the juniper family so a conversian to 458 is pretty easily enough, but for many years, SWT has always been unhappy with the 458's, so why bring in more Junipers? And why cant another TOC take them on for more of an express type service - sureley there easilvy convertable to AC aswell, so what about FCC and the Cambridge Express? or convert the Stansted Express to 20 minutes and have the junipers on that...

Anyone understand me on this ? And by this i mean, not only do i think Southern has made the wrong choice of converting Gat Ex services to 442,But these, like the 442's are more a express like unit than the 458's to which they could become, Afterall, think of all the wastage of converting and refurbishing these to Outer suburban units...

As for the 456's...God knows what SWT would do with them if they came this way...although thinking about it, the Lymington Line and london inner suburban services anyone ?

rich

 

[Fudgefrog]

I think wikipedia is wrong in saying about the class 456s but I know the class 460s are going to go back to SWT as they do not run the Gatwick Express franchise no more,and Southern dont want them so they are being transferred back while class 442s are taking over the gatwick express services.

Correct me if I am wrong anyone.

Erm, SWT never ran the Gatwick Express franchise! National express held the franchise until it was merged with the south central franchise (currently operated by Southern/ Govia).

And the class 460 were built specifically for GE and thus were never with SWT! You may be thinking of the 458s, two of which were loaned to Gatwick Express (back in national express times) when they were having problems with the 460s.


I don't see how moving the 456s over to SWT solves any problem really - you'd still come up short on Southern's carriage numbers!

In my opinion the gatwick express brand should be dropped and all services marketed as Southern, perhaps retaining GE as a "sub-brand".

The main reason for the 442s leaving SWT was they were too expensive to run compared to modern units - so why should Southern have to lose their 'modern' units to SWT and put up with older trains that aren't fit for GE services.

Either way this sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul. They're clearly going to need more units one way or another, moving 460s and 456s over to SWT isn't the solution.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Erm, SWT never ran the Gatwick Express franchise! National express held the franchise until it was merged with the south central franchise (currently operated by Southern/ Govia).

And the class 460 were built specifically for GE and thus were never with SWT! You may be thinking of the 458s, two of which were loaned to Gatwick Express (back in national express times) when they were having problems with the 460s.


I don't see how moving the 456s over to SWT solves any problem really - you'd still come up short on Southern's carriage numbers!

In my opinion the gatwick express brand should be dropped and all services marketed as Southern, perhaps retaining GE as a "sub-brand".

The main reason for the 442s leaving SWT was they were too expensive to run compared to modern units - so why should Southern have to lose their 'modern' units to SWT and put up with older trains that aren't fit for GE services.

Either way this sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul. They're clearly going to need more units one way or another, moving 460s and 456s over to SWT isn't the solution.

Sorry I got that wrong I always thought SWT was running the gawick express franchise before Southern so sorry about that.

 

[MCR247]

Maybe if Southern gave SWT 460s, modified some 377s when the /5s get to SN, and then use 442s on Brighton express workings?

 

[Helvellyn]

It's not necessarily the fault of the TOCs. The DfT play a big part in where rolling stock ends up, though that is behind the scenes in franchise negotiations, so it's the TOCs who take the flak.

SWT had to increase capacity as part if its 2007 franchise. On the Portsmouth route the only way to do this was to replace 10-car 444s by 12-car 450s on some of the peak trains. In addition, with the commitment to go to two trains per hour to Weyouth, 24 442 units wasn't quite enough to maintain this service all day. They could have had a mix of Desiro/442 trains, but in any disruption it'd be harder to recover the service. In the old franchise the 442s essentially opertaed the Poole/Weymouth turns as self-contained diagrams.

It also turned out cheaper to lease the 458 units from Porterbrook than 442s from Angel. Thus as part of the requirement to increase capacity, a stock reshuffle saw the 458s kept (remember virtually the whole fleet had been stored at one point) and the 442s leave.

SWT supposedly had plans for a major interior refurbishment of the units, but the way the new franchise was let meant the units left - despite over a third receiving the revised long distance livery as part of their overhauls at Ilford.


When Southern took on Gatwick Express, the decision that led to that was to increase capcity on the Brighton mainline into/out of London in the peaks. There were no extra paths to this, hence the extension of certain GatEx services to the South Coast. Now the 8-car 460s weren't suitable to do this, and Southern had no spare stock to operate these trains. The 442s were off lease, and thus Southern ended up having to take these units. The move now to take the remaining 7, and put the 460s off lease, will allow Southern to remove a fleet type, i.e. the 460s. Operating all 24 442s will allow it to standardise the GatEx operation. I agree the 442s aren't ideal for an airport service, but that dedicated service is being subsumed into the perceived greater need to serve the South Coast (capacity wise). Plus Gatwick is not the airport it was, with the Low Cost carriers increasingly dominating, and a lot of the longhaul flights now at Heathrow (particularly trans Atlantic flights, where you used to have a lot of early morning arrivals). The demand for a premium airport service has dropped off, and many people are happy to travel on Southern or FCC rather than on GatEx, where it costs more.

 

[Edvid]

On UKmodernEMU it has also been suggested that the relatively limited power supply (despite the major upgrades across the Southern region for all MkI replacements) played a part in 442s being chosen as opposed to a younger class - the BML power supply had to be upgraded (again) to accommodate more than half of the 377/5 fleet.

 

[RobShipway]

If my working out is correct, then 24 of the 30 4 car class 458 trains will have an MSO coach from class 460 inserted.

The six remaining class 458 trains get converted as follows with a DMLFO, TSO, TFO, TCO & DMSO added to each set. I would imagine that Peterbrook will convert the TSO to have 2+2 seating and the DMLFO will be converted to have windows and 2+2 seating.

• DMLFO
• DMCO
• PTSO
• TSO
• TFO
• TCO
• MSO
• DMCO
• DMSO

What route would only require six trains though?

 

[Crossforth]

What about the lack of end gangways on the 460s?

That's what led to the transfer of the 170s to TPE

 

[jopsuk]

It's the joys of the fractured investments. I'd have thought that if they were available for lease, Southern would be more than happy to have nothing but Electrostar varients in its third rail fleet, including for the Gatwick Express. Likewise, if it wasn't for lack of availibility and probable power/track issues, SWT would cheerfully run all-Desiro (remember, the 350s were originally to be 5-car 450s)- and I bet Southeastern management wouldn't be too sentimental if the money was there to replace their networkers with electrostars too.

But instead there's some odd little classes- the two third rail Juniper classes seem to have been problem children for a long while now. The 460s, once the teething issues cleared, were sensible enough as an isolated, fully dedicated fleet but make less sense as part of a larger franchise. As for the 458s, I think if SWT had any option they wouldn't be in service- that's why they went for the Desiros instead of more Junipers.


Wonder what the south of London would be like now if NSE's slam door replacement plan had been carried through- would they have replaced the 442, 455 and 456 with Networkers as well?

 

[starrymarkb]

The 170s were on longer runs though, plus it was just a factor, the Turbostars were nowhere near as reliable as the 159 fleet, add in an increase in capacity from swapping 8 two car 170s for 8 three car 159/1s and you can see why SWT offloaded them.

Also Porterbrook were offering heavy discounts on surplus stock, thats why FGW and SWT swapped their Angel 158s for Porterbrook units from TPX - Angel don't seem as willing to cut prices to move stored stock

 

[RobShipway]

I am hoping that the new trains for Thameslink/Crossrail come on stream soon, then the class 377/5's can be passed back to Southern such that they can replace the class 442's and be used in place of the calss 350/1 trains on London Midland. Then the class 350/1 trains can be passed to South West Trains.

 

[Juniper Driver]

In my opinion here the trouble with the 442s was also crew training which has been eradicated with the reason all drivers are trained on Desiro's as they are basic traction.Wessex wasn't.

So now at the depot where I am at I find I am no longer going down to Bournemouth every week due to the fact that the drivers who have 'learned' the road also have the advantage of already knowing the traction.

On the stock rumours I have heard that as the 378's have taken over then the 313s are surplus and will be going down to the south coast to free up the 377's thus freeing up the 456's.The 460's to be replaced by 442's and some surplus 460 coaches inserted into the 458's making 5 car unit except 6 units if I remember rightly.I think I got some of this from a Modern Railways printout in the messroom.

It seems to me the 456's with toilets was a bit of a mistake as they were always vandalised and locked out of use but how true this is I don't know as I have never been on a 456.

 

[royaloak]

If my working out is correct, then 24 of the 30 4 car class 458 trains will have an MSO coach from class 460 inserted.

The six remaining class 458 trains get converted as follows with a DMLFO, TSO, TFO, TCO & DMSO added to each set. I would imagine that Peterbrook will convert the TSO to have 2+2 seating and the DMLFO will be converted to have windows and 2+2 seating.

• DMLFO
• DMCO
• PTSO
• TSO
• TFO
• TCO
• MSO
• DMCO
• DMSO

What route would only require six trains though?

Did you manage this all by yourself or did you read it somewhere?
Not nice passing off other peoples information as your own!

 

[Juniper Driver]

What route would only require six trains though?

Guildford - Ascot?

Perhaps the spares could go round the Hounslow loop or something.

 

[fgwrich]

Well...I can offer you these...

A 460 In South West Trains Express Livery - say they where kept as full units but the passenger space was extended into the lugguage van - makes space for bycyles etc...

A 459 - Well Poterbrooks option for SWT is to rebuild the Juniper Cabs with something closely related to the 450s - With replacement Dellner Couplings...So here is a 459...Complete with 444...

And a SWT 456...Dosent look as bad as i first thought it would actualy!

Although ill admit, i still prefer the Angel Trains offering!