Class 455 with AC Motors

[adc82140]

The 455s are approaching 40 years old within the life of the new franchise. My thoughts are traction packages salvaged and then the rest sent for scrap. It seems all of the new franchise announcements are commiting to new EMU orders, so a lot of BR era units will go this way.

 

[zn1]

the new holder of the south western division wont be buying newtrains, the current fleet of 455 are approaching their expected life end date...railway vehicles being built to the 40 year life..so First/MTR will be replacing life expired fleets, But considering wimbledons 455's are being traction repackaged, have a good interiors, are reliable, then there is fiscally no reason to replace..the old addage of if aint broken dont fix it applies, the new franchise will be wiser in investing in additional fleets and cascading 455 to the regional local runs, and allow newer commuter crush busting fleets to take over

 

[Chris125]

the new holder of the south western division wont be buying newtrains, the current fleet of 455 are approaching their expected life end date...railway vehicles being built to the 40 year life..so First/MTR will be replacing life expired fleets, But considering wimbledons 455's are being traction repackaged, have a good interiors, are reliable, then there is fiscally no reason to replace..the old addage of if aint broken dont fix it applies, the new franchise will be wiser in investing in additional fleets and cascading 455 to the regional local runs, and allow newer commuter crush busting fleets to take over

The 455s and 456s are going, their narrow doors are too great a constraint on dwell times and ultimately capacity. As we've seen with Greater Anglia it's perfectly possible to justify the replacement of modern, refurbished and re-tractioned fleets in the right circumstances.

 

[Goldfish62]

the new holder of the south western division wont be buying newtrains, the current fleet of 455 are approaching their expected life end date...railway vehicles being built to the 40 year life..so First/MTR will be replacing life expired fleets, But considering wimbledons 455's are being traction repackaged, have a good interiors, are reliable, then there is fiscally no reason to replace..the old addage of if aint broken dont fix it applies, the new franchise will be wiser in investing in additional fleets and cascading 455 to the regional local runs, and allow newer commuter crush busting fleets to take over

455,456, 458 and 707 are all going. Replaced with a new fleet of 60 10 car and 30 5 car units.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Giben a large chunk of SWT is siemens stock, it wouls make much more sense to retain the 707s and build more , adapting the interior to the route.

Im sure theres logic in the plan tho......

 

[59CosG95]

455,456, 458 and 707 are all going. Replaced with a new fleet of 60 10 car and 30 5 car units.

Given that the 707 order was 30 5-car units, surely it'd make more sense to tart them up to First's standards! But as @gimmea50anyday says, I'm sure there's logic in the reasoning.

 

[455driver]

Given that the 707 order was 30 5-car units, surely it'd make more sense to tart them up to First's standards! But as @gimmea50anyday says, I'm sure there's logic in the reasoning.

What stained carpets, ripped seats and a general feeling of neglect!

 

[Mordac]

What stained carpets, ripped seats and a general feeling of neglect!

I'll take your work that that's true of GWR, of which I've very little experience, but it definitely isn't the case on TPE.

 

[43096]

So with today's announcement confirming the replacement of these units (which was already believed to be true upthread), what could be the plan for them? Will they go to Southern, or will Vossloh take back the motors for retractioning other stock when they are retired instead?

Why would Vossloh take the motors back?

The issue is with Porterbrook as fleet owners.

 

[43096]

455,456, 458 and 707 are all going. Replaced with a new fleet of 60 10 car and 30 5 car units.

If that is the case then the fleet sizes don't add up.

Using those numbers, and using existing set numbers (using vehicles doesn't make sense as this is about capacity expansion to give a 10-car suburban railway):
91 x 455 replaced by 45 x 10-car
24 x 456 in 455 replacement
30 x 458 replaced by 15 x 10-car
6 x 458 replaced by 6 x 5-car
30 x 707 replaced by 24 x 5-car

So several units short on that basis, but adding in the 4tph Windsor service adds another 10 x 5-car shortfall (plus maintenance spares on top). So overall I reckon around 18 x 5-car short on the requirement.

 

[Hophead]

But allocation of 442s to the Portsmouth line bumps about the right number of 450s onto something else?

 

[Jonny]

Why would Vossloh take the motors back?

The issue is with Porterbrook as fleet owners.

Porterbrook could easily re-use them on other rolling stock.

 

[Silverlink]

Porterbrook could easily re-use them on other rolling stock.

Class 319 could take them

 

[Goldfish62]

If that is the case then the fleet sizes don't add up.

Using those numbers, and using existing set numbers (using vehicles doesn't make sense as this is about capacity expansion to give a 10-car suburban railway):
91 x 455 replaced by 45 x 10-car
24 x 456 in 455 replacement
30 x 458 replaced by 15 x 10-car
6 x 458 replaced by 6 x 5-car
30 x 707 replaced by 24 x 5-car

So several units short on that basis, but adding in the 4tph Windsor service adds another 10 x 5-car shortfall (plus maintenance spares on top). So overall I reckon around 18 x 5-car short on the requirement.

You've got your numbers wrong. 746 current coaches replaced by 750 new coaches. Plus 90 442 coaches, that's 96 coaches more than what the position will be once the 707s are all introduced.

 

[hwl]

Class 319 could take them

The only Porterbrook stock that could too...

 

[adc82140]

Or Porterbrook could sell the motors back to Vossloh/on to somebody else outside the UK rail industry. As long as they see some return on them, they should be satisfied. There's no rule that says they have to be used on a train

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably the motors are a drop-in AC replacement for the traditional EE507 (?) DC motors. Could they be used in the re-tractioning of the 442s?

 

[JohnElliott]

Presumably the motors are a drop-in AC replacement for the traditional EE507 (?) DC motors. Could they be used in the re-tractioning of the 442s?

No, because the 442s use the EE546, not the EE507.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Has the exact reason for the contractors moving their workplace from Eastleigh TRSMD to Eastleigh Works ever been made known?

The plan was always to do them at Eastleigh, the first two were only for trial purposes. The move across Eastleigh was so that three units could be work in progress at one time rather than two, to speed the program up.

 

[43096]

You've got your numbers wrong. 746 current coaches replaced by 750 new coaches. Plus 90 442 coaches, that's 96 coaches more than what the position will be once the 707s are all introduced.

I have not got my numbers wrong. I was - and I explained it but you have ignored it - talking UNITS not vehicles. You need complete units to resource diagrams, not a random number of vehicles.

 

[WarrenTManager]

I have not got my numbers wrong. I was - and I explained it but you have ignored it - talking UNITS not vehicles. You need complete units to resource diagrams, not a random number of vehicles.

750 coaches are replacing 742.

75 10 car units could easily replace the current allocation


Using daily requirements they need
20 ten car (455/455/456)
21 eight car (455/455)
16 ten car (458)
13 ten car (707)

That leaves 5 ten cars for maintenance.

The 18 extra Pompey units supplant 450 for Ascots and some 12 car strengthening.

Doddle

 

[swt_passenger]

The plan was always to do them at Eastleigh, the first two were only for trial purposes...

That's what I wrote earlier in post #170 isn't it? It was a reply to TEW in post #169 who thought it was the other way around. We seem to be going round in circles...

 

[Goldfish62]

I have not got my numbers wrong. I was - and I explained it but you have ignored it - talking UNITS not vehicles. You need complete units to resource diagrams, not a random number of vehicles.

So are you suggesting that First MTR have got their numbers wrong?

 

[43096]

So are you suggesting that First MTR have got their numbers wrong?

I'm questioning how it actually works - we probably need more details on future fleet deployment.

 

[hwl]

Some careful analysis before everyone claims everyone else is wrong.

As 5920 has pointed out indirectly the planned SW inner fleet stock utilisation is fairly low:
455 82/91 units 90.1%
456 20/21 units 83.3%
458 32/36 units 88.8%
707 26/30 units 86.6%

Which is for 2 reasons:
a) 4 sub fleets, a uniform fleet could have far higher utilisation
b) modern stock should have far lower maintenance requirements and therefore higher utilisation

With large modern fleet it should be possible to get 93-94% utilisation. (Southern 377 fleet has often been running at slightly higher utilisation than this)

The 70 out of 75 2x5car or 10 car units in service is a utilisation of 93.3%.

Hence it looks like First/MTR may have their sums spot on...

 

[Class455]

With First/MTR taking over the franchise, I wonder if one the last three units for overhaul (455 860/864/873) will receive their livery?

 

[455driver]

I have not got my numbers wrong. I was - and I explained it but you have ignored it - talking UNITS not vehicles. You need complete units to resource diagrams, not a random number of vehicles.

Are you really trying to say that a new 10 coach 'unit' is only equivalent to 1x455 'unit' when it will actually be replacing 2x455 'units' and a 456 'unit'! :roll:

 

[Class455]

Have any more units been converted?

 

[TEW]

They're continuing at a good rate now. I've had 5902, 5906 and 5915 over the last couple of days with AC Motors which haven't previously been reported on here.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

But have they resolved the jolting issue when they stop?