Class 319s to Southeastern

[Stats]

377s to Southeastern has definitely made it into a franchise spec, but the variant of 377 to be used has never been officially confirmed. 377/1 is a fairly reasonable supposition, that's all.

377/1 is confirmed in the Southeastern franchise agreement

The Franchisee shall negotiate and enter into an agreement with the TSGN Operator for the subleasing by the Franchisee from the TSGN Operator of [redacted] x 4 car Class 377/1 units ("Additional Class 377 Units") (not being the dual voltage units forming part of the train fleet of the TSGN Operator) (the “Class 377 Sub-Lease").

 

[swt_passenger]

377/1 is confirmed in the Southeastern franchise agreement

Ah thanks for the correction, I was going by the original TSGN ITT from 2013 which doesn't seem to give the same detail, it just mentions four car 377s, not dual voltage. But of course the Southeastern spec is more recent.

 

[tsr]

It's a long shot, but if 455s were sent to the Coastways, replacing 313s, I wonder if they could be replaced by 319s here and there as needed (and of course by 700s on routes such as Tattenham Corner). It might upset the balance of available 377s and 319s in the SE and elsewhere, but I think it could make sense and either maintain or increase capacity.

Southern 455s may have some seating/comfort issues and no toilets but I feel in some ways they could easily provide a viable alternative to 313s. One of the big problems may be a lack of automatic SDO (door locking is authorised for Southern guards to use, but it's awkward) if running in multiple at many Coastway stations, and the lack of door panels leading to revenue issues on any length of 455 consist.

 

[RobShipway]

It's a long shot, but if 455s were sent to the Coastways, replacing 313s, I wonder if they could be replaced by 319s here and there as needed (and of course by 700s on routes such as Tattenham Corner). It might upset the balance of available 377s and 319s in the SE and elsewhere, but I think it could make sense and either maintain or increase capacity.

Southern 455s may have some seating/comfort issues and no toilets but I feel in some ways they could easily provide a viable alternative to 313s. One of the big problems may be a lack of automatic SDO (door locking is authorised for Southern guards to use, but it's awkward) if running in multiple at many Coastway stations, and the lack of door panels leading to revenue issues on any length of 455 consist.

I believe the passengers on the Coastway routes where promised that they would only have to be using the class 313's until the Thameslink Class 700's where introduced and that the services after that would return to Class 377 operation.

Is all the class 377/1's moving to Southern Eastern or just a percentage of the 377/1 units?

 

[Esker-pades]

By the way, how many platforms in the suburbs can actually fit 12 cars?

As a regular SE user, most stations on routes in and out of Charing Cross and Cannon Street have 12 car capacity. The Greenwich, Sidcup, Bexleyheath, South Eastern Main, Hayes and the North Kent (not sure about stations beyond Gravesend). To be honest, if St Johns can take a 12 car train, most stations would be able to take a 12 car train.

My guess is Metro services out of Victoria won't be able to extend beyond 8 car, but some platforms may be able to extend.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe the passengers on the Coastway routes where promised that they would only have to be using the class 313's until the Thameslink Class 700's where introduced and that the services after that would return to Class 377 operation.

Promised by whom? Because that's not the plan!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's a long shot, but if 455s were sent to the Coastways, replacing 313s, I wonder if they could be replaced by 319s here and there as needed (and of course by 700s on routes such as Tattenham Corner). It might upset the balance of available 377s and 319s in the SE and elsewhere, but I think it could make sense and either maintain or increase capacity.

Southern 455s may have some seating/comfort issues and no toilets but I feel in some ways they could easily provide a viable alternative to 313s. One of the big problems may be a lack of automatic SDO (door locking is authorised for Southern guards to use, but it's awkward) if running in multiple at many Coastway stations, and the lack of door panels leading to revenue issues on any length of 455 consist.

Would installing SDO on 455s involve stripping them back to the bare bodyshell to enable the installation of the wiring?

 

[Domh245]

I don't think it'd require being stripped down to the bodyshell, but you would probably need to take the ceiling panels off, and a few of the bodyside panels (we're talking internal panels here). You would however need to fit a few magical boxes (1 or 2 per car) and then run these to the individual door control mechanisms, as well as a control mechanism (dial, keypad, automatic system linked to PIS) to the door panels (both inside the cab and in the passenger environment)

 

[physics34]

Promised by whom? Because that's not the plan!

Yeh exactly. There are no plans to replace the 313s during the term of this franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

.
My guess is Metro services out of Victoria won't be able to extend beyond 8 car, but some platforms may be able to extend.

Deleted, confused Southern and Southeastern...

 

[Hophead]

Aren't Southern already running 10 car metro services with either pairs of 5 car 377 or other combinations such 4+3+3?

Think Felix refers to Southeastern, not Southern...

 

[swt_passenger]

Think Felix refers to Southeastern, not Southern...

Sorry, my mistake, I was carried away with the stuff about replacing 313s... Think I'll have to give up for today.

 

[hwl]

I believe the passengers on the Coastway routes where promised that they would only have to be using the class 313's until the Thameslink Class 700's where introduced and that the services after that would return to Class 377 operation.

Is all the class 377/1's moving to Southern Eastern or just a percentage of the 377/1 units?

As Bald Rick has said that isn't the plan and never was. Some of them may have though or hoped i.e. spare 377s must meant they are for us...

25x 377/1 subleased to Southeastern and the 3car 377/3 that aren't already used for 10 car metro services (4+3+3) are used to form more 10 car metro services as at the moment only circa 50% of possible services actually runs as 10 car.

 

[ScotGG]

As a regular SE user, most stations on routes in and out of Charing Cross and Cannon Street have 12 car capacity. The Greenwich, Sidcup, Bexleyheath, South Eastern Main, Hayes and the North Kent (not sure about stations beyond Gravesend). To be honest, if St Johns can take a 12 car train, most stations would be able to take a 12 car train.

My guess is Metro services out of Victoria won't be able to extend beyond 8 car, but some platforms may be able to extend.

Yep almost all SE metro stations can take 12 cars except Woolwich Dockyard. Most work was done in the early 90s. Recession and privatisation halted it until NR finished the job around 2 years ago up to Dartford.

Past that to Medway, Rochester is being rebuilt, and Strood is seeing platform extensions, and when complete by the end of this year 12 cars should be more common, particularly after Aug 2016 when Cannon Street trains can't stop at London Bridge requiring big alterations.

319s were possibly going to Vic routes according to Modern Railways. That would free up more networkers for 12 car runing. The planned Aug 2016 timetable sees more trains skipping Woolwich Dockyard. After 2018 could 377/1s operate routes via Woolwich Dockyard with SDO?

Longer term, would it make sense to give TOCs who can only run 10 car on some third rail routes (eg Southern, SW trains) the 376s (comprised of 5 cars) and SE get stock that can be made 12-car with SDO to solve the Woolwich problem?

 

[hwl]

Yep almost all SE metro stations can take 12 cars except Woolwich Dockyard. Most work was done in the early 90s. Recession and privatisation halted it until NR finished the job around 2 years ago up to Dartford.

Past that to Medway, Rochester is being rebuilt, and Strood is seeing platform extensions, and when complete by the end of this year 12 cars should be more common, particularly after Aug 2016 when Cannon Street trains can't stop at London Bridge requiring big alterations.

319s were possibly going to Vic routes according to Modern Railways. 377/1s could operate routes via Woolwich Dockyard with SDO?

Longer term, would it make sense to give TOCs who can only run 10 car on some third rail routes (eg Southern, SW trains) the 376s (comprised of 5 cars) and SE get stock that can be made 12-car with SDO to solve the Woolwich problem?

377s would go on long distance services releasing the 465/9s back on to Metro services thus allowing more 8 or 10car on non-Woolwich services to become 12 car and all Woolwich Dockyard services could become 10car.

They are probably expecting Crossrail 1* to sort the Woolwich problem till the 465s retire and all up Charing Cross SE services stopping at London Bridge from 2018 onwards to even out demand between service on other lines.

Replace 465s, 466s and any 319s with 4car inc SDO in the 2030s

*12tph Abbey Wood / Woolwich - Canary Wharf & beyond should sort things for a while.

 

[SF-02]

With the news today that Corby electrification by 2019 is now back on, that means 25 Southeastern class 375's are once again likely to be off.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, they will get 25 class 377/1s from Southern but no real net gain, which looked possible when cl 375 transfers looked to be put back after the pause.

So once again a need for stock from elsewhere, which brings us back again to gaining some class 319s for Vic routes freeing up networkers. Or have things changed with cl 319 allocations since the Modern Railways story, with more of them allocated to Northern or London Midland? Even half a dozen to southeastern would allow a lot more 10 and 12 car networker running.

 

[D365]

I'm fairly sure it was never as many as 25 375/6s which were planned for 'CorPan'. 20 maybe, but even then it seems far too optimistic compared to the four units on present duties.

 

[northwichcat]

With the news today that Corby electrification by 2019 is now back on, that means 25 Southeastern class 375's are once again likely to be off.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, they will get 25 class 377/1s from Southern but no real net gain, which looked possible when cl 375 transfers looked to be put back after the pause.

So once again a need for stock from elsewhere, which brings us back again to gaining some class 319s for Vic routes freeing up networkers. Or have things changed with cl 319 allocations since the Modern Railways story, with more of them allocated to Northern or London Midland? Even half a dozen to southeastern would allow a lot more 10 and 12 car networker running.

We don't know what the Northern requirement for 319s is at present.

We know the 319s in their current state won't meet the 'Regional Express' requirements which the next Northern franchise will have to provide on Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Windermere services.

We also know the 323s aren't going to remain with Northern for much longer but the 319s can't keep to 323 timings on certain stopping services.

There's also rumours with regards to 350s going to Northern.

The above should be cleared up in December when the award for the next franchise is made.

 

[hassaanhc]

As 319s have all cars 20m long, wouldn't they be better at fitting at Charing Cross as 12 cars, than the 465s with 21m driving cars? A difference of about 6m

 

[Townsend Hook]

It's a long shot, but if 455s were sent to the Coastways, replacing 313s, I wonder if they could be replaced by 319s here and there as needed (and of course by 700s on routes such as Tattenham Corner). It might upset the balance of available 377s and 319s in the SE and elsewhere, but I think it could make sense and either maintain or increase capacity.

Southern 455s may have some seating/comfort issues and no toilets but I feel in some ways they could easily provide a viable alternative to 313s. One of the big problems may be a lack of automatic SDO (door locking is authorised for Southern guards to use, but it's awkward) if running in multiple at many Coastway stations, and the lack of door panels leading to revenue issues on any length of 455 consist.

If the 455s came down to the coast specifically to replace the 313s the lack of SDO wouldn't be an issue: the 313s are not permitted to run in multiple in scheduled service, and cannot run in formations greater than six-car (two units) under any circumstances.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would the Coastways route be suitable for a new build of Desiro Cities?

 

[Townsend Hook]

Would the Coastways route be suitable for a new build of Desiro Cities?

It would make more sense to build/cascade more Electrostars to bring back the fleet commonality we had before the 313s arrived. When the 377/3s held sway they had the benefit of being usable on the London services as well, which the 313s obviously do not.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It would make more sense to build/cascade more Electrostars to bring back the fleet commonality we had before the 313s arrived. When the 377/3s held sway they had the benefit of being usable on the London services as well, which the 313s obviously do not.

A new build of Electostars isn't an option as they're no longer on offer, Bombardier have replaced the Electrostar design with the Aventra. I've no idea if the Aventra is compatible in service with any Electrostar variant

 

[fusionblue]

A new build of Electostars isn't an option as they're no longer on offer, Bombardier have replaced the Electrostar design with the Aventra. I've no idea if the Aventra is compatible in service with any Electrostar variant

In hindsight (..like that ever exists on the railways) they should have ordered a batch of 4-car 376s with the option to increase them to 6-car when needed to allow them to run across most of the network.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I've no idea if the Aventra is compatible in service with any Electrostar variant

I'm sure it wouldn't be outside Bombardier's capabilities to make a batch of backwards-compatible Aventras. In any case, as services switch to 700s enough 377s may be released to enable the 313s to be sent to the scrapyard where they belong.

 

[hwl]

I'm sure it wouldn't be outside Bombardier's capabilities to make a batch of backwards-compatible Aventras. In any case, as services switch to 700s enough 377s may be released to enable the 313s to be sent to the scrapyard where they belong.

As previously mentioned the plan is that the released 377s are sent to the metro area to form more 10 car services formed 3+3+4 car

 

[physics34]

I'm sure it wouldn't be outside Bombardier's capabilities to make a batch of backwards-compatible Aventras. In any case, as services switch to 700s enough 377s may be released to enable the 313s to be sent to the scrapyard where they belong.

unfortunately this will not happen. The 377s released by the 700s on Horsham, Tattenham, peak time East Grinstead, Littlehampton and Caterham services ...and also by the 387/2s on Brighton services will enable the 25x 377/1 to move to southeastern and more 377s on metro 10 car services (which in turn will relieve some 455s.)

The 313s are here til the end of the franchise at least. The idea to use 319s to replace 313s (with their toliet facilities) is, IMO, a great idea but sadly, i dont make these decisions.

 

[D365]

A new build of Electostars isn't an option as they're no longer on offer, Bombardier have replaced the Electrostar design with the Aventra. I've no idea if the Aventra is compatible in service with any Electrostar variant

Why do you (again) suggest as if a Desiro City variant is better in a franchise area that does not run any Siemens-built rolling stock? The Thameslink Class 700 fleet will be operated and maintained on a totally different contract to existing stock.

 

[Townsend Hook]

It is somewhat irritating that GTR were straight in announcing replacement of the GN 313s, but have apparently forgotten about the plague of them on the coastway services..

 

[D365]

It is somewhat irritating that GTR were straight in announcing replacement of the GN 313s, but have apparently forgotten about the plague of them on the coastway services..

Replacement of the Great Northern Class 313 fleet was a franchise requirement.