Class 319s to Southeastern

[SF-02]

I saw this earlier in Modern Railways. Not confirmed but SE are pushing for it. Emminently sensible I'd say. I've been advocating it here - those 319s not allocated and are spare post class 700 could go there. There seems to be hardly any SE users on here so the 319 threads suggest some weird and wonderful locations for them without looking at SE, who have a huge amount of overcrowding.

319s already run in SE land with the infrequent Thameslink services. With them heading onto Vic to Orpington services, that will finally allow 12 car running on metro routes 30 years after planned! At the moment there's a token amount since January 2015 - something like 3 in the morning and a solitary 12 car in the evening. 319s would allow more networkers to run in 12 car.

Despite Crossrail etc SE London and Kent are seeing, and are planned to see further, some of the very largest population growth and housing programs in the entire country, so it all seems to make sense. New trains would be nice but for quite few years now SE metro is a bit of a forgotten child so any improvements would be welcome.

How many is feasible after all the ones to Northern and London Midland are accounted for?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would a new build of 700s be better for SE with the remaining 319s being split between Northern and LM?

 

[D365]

Don't forget that there may be a chance of seeing a fair few units of Class 313, 315, 317 or 321 going spare through fleet replacement on Great Northern or GE/WA. The 317 and 321 are AC-only and a full refurbishment is available for either, however the PEP units (which may be more suited to metro work) are reported that they may be coming to the end of their working lives.

 

[jopsuk]

The tender for the 313 replacement fleet isn't out yet- and when they do get replaced it really will be to the scrap yard for the 40 yr old units. The 315s are, as with the 317s and 321s, AC only.

new-build would of course be preferred by many, but is expensive. The 319s can be made "OK" with a relatively cheap refurbishment as seen for Northern.

 

[LLivery]

My first thought was oh please no, I thought we in South London were shot of them...

How on earth would Southeastern manage that without totally destroying their already terrible reputation? Yes, lets bring in a fleet older than our entire current fleet, that will do us favours! As a frequent user of the Penge East & Hayes lines the idea of having 319s fills me with dread. It may make sense operationally but, they have never seen a decent refurb compared to the 455s and we all know Southeastern wont even change the livery, let alone refurb them.

By the way, how many platforms in the suburbs can actually fit 12 cars?

 

[NSEFAN]

My first thought was oh please no, I thought we in South London were shot of them...

How on earth would Southeastern manage that without totally destroying their already terrible reputation? Yes, lets bring in a fleet older than our entire current fleet, that will do us favours! As a frequent user of the Penge East & Hayes lines the idea of having 319s fills me with dread. It may make sense operationally but, they have never seen a decent refurb compared to the 455s and we all know Southeastern wont even change the livery, let alone refurb them.

To be fair, they don't have the final say in rolling stock strategy. Although they are pushing for it on the surface, if SE get some 319s it will ultimately be because the DfT is rummaging around frantically trying to find suitable stock to make its mysterious master plan not get even further behind.

 

[Class 466]

My assumption would be that 319s would be used until new stock was available in the next franchise term... would be very good to see them get some more stock!

 

[theageofthetra]

Would make sense they are used on services which can only take 8 car such as Orpington-Victoria & Dartford-Victoria. Will require a lot of retraining though as many don't sign that traction.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely this could be overtaken by events at least while MML wiring is 'shelved'? Has the 375s to MML (Corby) ever been confirmed officially, or is it just a Modern Railways educated guess?

 

[DarloRich]

My first thought was oh please no, I thought we in South London were shot of them...

How on earth would Southeastern manage that without totally destroying their already terrible reputation? Yes, lets bring in a fleet older than our entire current fleet, that will do us favours! As a frequent user of the Penge East & Hayes lines the idea of having 319s fills me with dread. It may make sense operationally but, they have never seen a decent refurb compared to the 455s and we all know Southeastern wont even change the livery, let alone refurb them.

By the way, how many platforms in the suburbs can actually fit 12 cars?

Perhaps that is all they can get and have decided that some stock is better than no stock - at least as a short term capacity addition?

 

[Deepgreen]

My assumption would be that 319s would be used until new stock was available in the next franchise term... would be very good to see them get some more stock!

The issue is surely whether the stock would be reliable, not necessarily how old it is.

 

[northwichcat]

Would a new build of 700s be better for SE with the remaining 319s being split between Northern and LM?

Given the news that TPE electrification will be 'paused' it would seem a bad idea to propose building any further new commuter EMUs in the next 5 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely this could be overtaken by events at least while MML wiring is 'shelved'? Has the 375s to MML (Corby) ever been confirmed officially, or is it just a Modern Railways educated guess?

Network Rail's CP5 delivery plan said 377s for Corby-London. Suggestion for 375s being used instead appears to be the DC only 377s have less potential future uses while the 375s have AC equipment which isn't used.

 

[SF-02]

My first thought was oh please no, I thought we in South London were shot of them...

How on earth would Southeastern manage that without totally destroying their already terrible reputation? Yes, lets bring in a fleet older than our entire current fleet, that will do us favours! As a frequent user of the Penge East & Hayes lines the idea of having 319s fills me with dread. It may make sense operationally but, they have never seen a decent refurb compared to the 455s and we all know Southeastern wont even change the livery, let alone refurb them.

By the way, how many platforms in the suburbs can actually fit 12 cars?

Pretty much all metro lines can run 12 cars now I believe. Most were finally upgraded over the past couple of years but theres a severe shortage of stock to utilise them. Woolwich dockyard cant so probably just on semi fasts on the Charlton line.

I doubt many would mind 319s if more space. The networkers are badly in need of a refurb now, are pretty scuzzy and theres hardly any difference in interior quality.

 

[D365]

Somewhat of a moot point really as on Thameslink/Great Northern (I'm not sure about other TOCs) the 319 and 317/321 fleets aren't permitted to operate in 12-car formations - not sure how much paperwork is needed to change that.

EDIT: Thanks for correcting me, not sure why I thought it applied to the others but I remember on the 319, the restriction being due to the cab emergency doors.

 

[SF-02]

They probably wont but that still allows quite a few more metro peak networkers to go 12 car, which will help a lot.

 

[hwl]

Network Rail's CP5 delivery plan said 377s for Corby-London. Suggestion for 375s being used instead appears to be the DC only 377s have less potential future uses while the 375s have AC equipment which isn't used.

The problem with transferring 375s from SE to MML (even if they get a very slightly larger number of 377s ex Southern/TSGN in 2 years) is that it ignores passenger growth rates of circa 5% (NR estimates were always much lower) which means SE will have to cope with far more passengers than NR would have been expecting by that time so transferring them may be politically difficult in several years time with the potential crowding levels at the time the greater the MML delay the less sense a stock transfer makes.

 

[Skimble19]

Somewhat of a moot point really as on Thameslink/Great Northern (I'm not sure about other TOCs) the 319 and 317/321 fleets aren't permitted to operate in 12-car formations - not sure how much paperwork is needed to change that.

Well I can assure you that's not entirely true as 321s run in 12 Car formations every weekday on Great Northern... I can't remember if 317s do and can't vouch for 319s though!

 

[hassaanhc]

Somewhat of a moot point really as on Thameslink/Great Northern (I'm not sure about other TOCs) the 319 and 317/321 fleets aren't permitted to operate in 12-car formations - not sure how much paperwork is needed to change that.

I was thinking it might be better to go for 12 car 319s as they'd be shorter than a similar 465 consist (Networker driving cars are almost 21m long), so may have less restrictions at Charing Cross. Poor acceleration compared to 465s may cause issues with timings for any 319 consist though.

There will also be 455s from Southern going spare

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Somewhat of a moot point really as on Thameslink/Great Northern (I'm not sure about other TOCs) the 319 and 317/321 fleets aren't permitted to operate in 12-car formations - not sure how much paperwork is needed to change that.

Too many stations where they don't fit? No SDO available?

 

[physics34]

I still think the spare 319s would be ideal to replace southerns 455s...

With the toilet facility they can be happily used on outer suburban services such as Horsham/Dorking via Sutton, Vic to Reigate etc etc (ex-LBG, changing from December).

 

[Minstral25]

I still think the spare 319s would be ideal to replace southerns 455s...

With the toilet facility they can be happily used on outer suburban services such as Horsham/Dorking via Sutton, Vic to Reigate etc etc (ex-LBG, changing from December).

Vic to Reigate - no thanks we were almost rid of the horrible things.

 

[physics34]

Vic to Reigate - no thanks we were almost rid of the horrible things.

They are great lol. Actually the more sensible would be to replace the 313s on the coast with em

 

[jopsuk]

Somewhat of a moot point really as on Thameslink/Great Northern (I'm not sure about other TOCs) the 319 and 317/321 fleets aren't permitted to operate in 12-car formations - not sure how much paperwork is needed to change that.

I was on a GN (then FCC) 12-car 317 on the 19th of May last year (2014). I know it was that day as though I'd been elsewhere, the train was an extra service to help get Cambridge United supporters back home after their play-off final win.

(they all crammed in the back, I was in a near empty carriage at the front).

And, as said, the 321s are used in 12 car daily to Peterborough

 

[AM9]

The issue is surely whether the stock would be reliable, not necessarily how old it is.

It would be slightly more reliable than when used on TL (as it wouldn't have any ac or changeover) problems, - unless there are specific issues with the SE route infrastructure or more significantly, its passengers.

 

[SF-02]

I still think the spare 319s would be ideal to replace southerns 455s...

With the toilet facility they can be happily used on outer suburban services such as Horsham/Dorking via Sutton, Vic to Reigate etc etc (ex-LBG, changing from December).

Are the 455s completely life expired? If not why give them up to be replaced by trains which can do a job nearby, on routes they already operate, and on a TOC seeing growth but doesnt have the luxury of giving up stock, if thats the plan with 455s?

 

[physics34]

Are the 455s completely life expired? If not why give them up to be replaced by trains which can do a job nearby, on routes they already operate, and on a TOC seeing growth but doesnt have the luxury of giving up stock, if thats the plan with 455s?

well there are plans to ease the usage of southerns 455s when the 700s are running, im not sure if that also means withdrawing a few because i doubt southern would want to have them sitting around all day, plus i doubt there is the room.. but to have stock that is "slightly" an upgrade..... can do 90mph and has a toliet (s), they would be a decent replacement.

It of course wouldnt be long term is the 319s are only 6-9 years younger but....!

 

[ScotGG]

Is the Corby electrification definitely off the cards now with the MML pause, or is that smaller stretch still going ahead?

If paused then 20 (I think) 375s wont be moving from SE to EMT in 2018, so what will happen to the 25 377/1s that were due to move over?

Even without losing the 375s some 319s and/or 377/1s will be needed to deal with increasing passenger numbers, particularly in London on metro routes. I wonder what's more likely to move to SE to help there - 319s or 377/1s?

 

[swt_passenger]

If paused then 20 (I think) 375s wont be moving from SE to EMT in 2018, so what will happen to the 25 377/1s that were due to move over?

375s to MML has never been confirmed - it was a Modern Railways story only.

377s to Southeastern has definitely made it into a franchise spec, but the variant of 377 to be used has never been officially confirmed. 377/1 is a fairly reasonable supposition, that's all.

It's probably far too early for anyone in these forums to give anything other than an educated guess...

 

[RichardN]

Didn't the Brighton Expresses run as 12 coach 319s when Southern had them?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Didn't the Brighton Expresses run as 12 coach 319s when Southern had them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issues with 12-car 319s is to do with DOO. On the Brighton expresses they operated with guards.