Class 319 future

[childwallblues]

A report on a Yahoo website states that the twelve 319 due to transfer to Northern at a future date will be 319004/05 319218/19 and 319424/31/34/42/48/50/56/58.

 

[AM9]

A report on a Yahoo website states that the twelve 319 due to transfer to Northern at a future date will be 319004/05 319218/19 and 319424/31/34/42/48/50/56/58.

If that is true then it looks like the class 319/4 trains prepared most recently for the Thameslink fast services (with some 1st class seats and vertical luggage racks) are being supplied. They would be more suitable for both airport services and the longer routes to Preston, and eventually Blackpool.
Let's hope that Allerton can get the entire fleet at least up to normal Thameslink availability levels by the time the combined fleet is deployed.

 

[northwichcat]

They would be more suitable for both airport services and the longer routes to Preston, and eventually Blackpool.

The Airport to Blackpool and Windermere EMUs have to have air conditioning as a franchise requirement (along with 2+2 seating, tables and wifi) so the new 332 331s will get used on those services. Arriva don't have provide First Class on any of their services.

If some of the 319/2s had been introduced on the Airport-Liverpool services originally they would have gone down better with passengers, given they have the same type of seating as the 156s which the 319s replaced, rather than the generally disliked BR 1980s 3+2 seating.

 

[D365]

The Airport to Blackpool and Windermere EMUs have to have air conditioning as a franchise requirement (along with 2+2 seating, tables and wifi) so the new 332s will get used on those services. Arriva don't have provide First Class on any of their services.

Class 331 Unless HEx has suddenly given up their fleet.

 

[507021]

A report on a Yahoo website states that the twelve 319 due to transfer to Northern at a future date will be 319004/05 319218/19 and 319424/31/34/42/48/50/56/58.

Thanks for sharing this, I have to say I'm surprised the 319/3 units that are still operated by Thameslink aren't heading to Northern. Despite that, I'm a big fan of the 319/0, /2 and /4 subclasses, so I'm looking forward to seeing this batch enter service with Northern.

 

[AM9]

If some of the 319/2s had been introduced on the Airport-Liverpool services originally they would have gone down better with passengers, given they have the same type of seating as the 156s which the 319s replaced, rather than the generally disliked BR 1980s 3+2 seating.

Well passengers can't have everything they want when they want them. The 319s (when maintained properly) meet the needs of the service. I presume there is nothing expressed in the franchise agreement that requires trains already providing the required service to be changed because they are more than 20 years old.
If the passenger flows require more capacity on those routes, more trains that are suitable for the role will be provided.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm (partly) surprised that it's these units as most are in the GTR white colour scheme. Will Northern repaint them again so soon?

 

[westcoaster]

I'm (partly) surprised that it's these units as most are in the GTR white colour scheme. Will Northern repaint them again so soon?

Also 319219 was the last 319 in SN colours, not seen her this week so she might be at wolverton already.

 

[Class377/5]

Also 319219 was the last 319 in SN colours, not seen her this week so she might be at wolverton already.

She went up on the 16/05.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm (partly) surprised that it's these units as most are in the GTR white colour scheme. Will Northern repaint them again so soon?

The it's not GTR livery but DfT TSGN livery. The reason for that livery is contracts were signed prior to TSGN winner being announced. GTR being a management contract will only do cost effective things that are required, so changing the livery to anything else isn't going to happen.

 

[northwichcat]

Well passengers can't have everything they want when they want them. The 319s (when maintained properly) meet the needs of the service. I presume there is nothing expressed in the franchise agreement that requires trains already providing the required service to be changed because they are more than 20 years old.
If the passenger flows require more capacity on those routes, more trains that are suitable for the role will be provided.

I was talking about the seating and the age of the seating design not the age of the train or the number of carriages. However, it seems you can't stop repeating how highly you rate a class of EMUs which has caused non-stop problems since arriving up here, despite an ex-FCC fitter working at Allerton and Northern never having more than 80% of them in passenger service. Maybe you need to update your generic 319 pitch given the younger 319s are now closer to 30 years old than 20 years old?

There is a requirement for 'like new' interiors on Northern units by the end of 2019. However, it seems Arriva's bid hasn't included new seats on all the older trains they are retaining/taking on.

 

[Class377/5]

A single fitter will only make so much difference especially when your stock is significantly different from anything that's gone before. This idea that one man is going to fix a fleet every day is rather bizzare drum to be banging to death like some are right now.

 

[northwichcat]

A single fitter will only make so much difference especially when your stock is significantly different from anything that's gone before. This idea that one man is going to fix a fleet every day is rather bizzare drum to be banging to death like some are right now.

They obviously have a team of fitters at Allerton but given it's just over 2 years since the first 319s arrived at Allerton and a fitter highly experienced in maintaining 319s will have trained others, the argument that the trains are good and the fitters lack the experience is now looking feeble.

 

[trainmania100]

Apologies, but I am looking for the thread which stated which services class 319s currently work.

I would like to see some 319s north of Luton, preferably at a weekend. I recall the thread saying Sundays were better than Saturdays for 319s north of Luton. Does anyone have the thread or can tell me which services north of Luton are 319 hauled on weekends?
I intend to go to Bedford Flitwick and maybe Harlington on Sunday coming.

Furthermore, does anyone know if the london midland 319s still operate and where? I would like to see them too :-P

Thanks

 

[swt_passenger]

Furthermore, does anyone know if the london midland 319s still operate and where? I would like to see them too :-P

London Midland is St Albans - Watford Jn, and the odd Euston services as shown in frequently requested diagrams here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1478558&postcount=10

 

[AM9]

They obviously have a team of fitters at Allerton but given it's just over 2 years since the first 319s arrived at Allerton and a fitter highly experienced in maintaining 319s will have trained others, the argument that the trains are good and the fitters lack the experience is now looking feeble.

Well I don't have actual figures for 319 reliability on GTR or NR services*however, I have only witnessed one failure in over 20 years of using them and that was a DC to AC changeover at Farringdon, which wouldn't be an issue in Lancashire. Maybe if somebody here did have any verified metrics, any myths about them being more (or less) unreliable in either of those two deployments could be laid to rest. It's not as if the stresses of the operating environment is significantly different in the two areas.
* the very low numbers recently introduced into LM service may not be representative.

 

[furnessvale]

Well I don't have actual figures for 319 reliability on GTR or NR services*however, I have only witnessed one failure in over 20 years of using them and that was a DC to AC changeover at Farringdon, which wouldn't be an issue in Lancashire. Maybe if somebody here did have any verified metrics, any myths about them being more (or less) unreliable in either of those two deployments could be laid to rest. It's not as if the stresses of the operating environment is significantly different in the two areas.
* the very low numbers recently introduced into LM service may not be representative.

If I, as a TOC, have to release some of my units to another TOC, can I choose which ones to give up or is this decided by the ROSCO or receiving TOC?

I think you can see where I am going. If it is my choice, I will be carefully selecting the worst performers, or ones coming up for major exams etc.

 

[northwichcat]

323 failures are a lot less common than 319 problems based on what Northern themselves report on their journey check site. Also TfGM haven't written to Northern asking why there are so many cancellations and short formations due to 323 problems but they have with 319s. And guess what? There's two cancellations on the entire Northern network currently and the reason for those cancellations is a shortage of 319s available for service!

 

[AM9]

I was talking about the seating and the age of the seating design not the age of the train or the number of carriages. However, it seems you can't stop repeating how highly you rate a class of EMUs which has caused non-stop problems since arriving up here, despite an ex-FCC fitter working at Allerton and Northern never having more than 80% of them in passenger service. Maybe you need to update your generic 319 pitch given the younger 319s are now closer to 30 years old than 20 years old?

There is a requirement for 'like new' interiors on Northern units by the end of 2019. However, it seems Arriva's bid hasn't included new seats on all the older trains they are retaining/taking on.

There were only ever seven class 319/2 trains and some of them may be converted to standard outer suburban seating for the class. ISTR that the North West already has 20 319s so they will create a few more opportunities.
I have never intimated that they are highly-rated by myself or anybody else. They are normal functional EMUs that have been doing the job in the South-East for over 20 years. If you want to be exact, the 319/3s that were sent to Northern Rail were built in 1990 as 319/1s making them nearly 26 years old.
My reference to 20 years was not concerning the 319s, just the expectation by some that trains cascaded should be younger, for no reason other than (some) passengers' preference. There doesn't seem to be any reason why those cascaded to NT should be any less capable of providing service on the newly electrified lines there than they did on Thameslink.
The question is, if the reported 12 additional units are cascaded by 2017, the NW will likely have the largest fleet of 319s in the country. Clearly, less than 20 units satisfy the LIV-MAN/MIA, the LIV-MCV, the LIV-WBQ and the LIV-WGN current service requirements. If the reported 12 additional 319s are sent next year, where will they be deployed? The only route likely to be added next year will be the MCV-PRE.
Unless of course, the explosive growth that the Government has promised for the North creates a demand for almost double the current capacity when the 'Northern Powerhouse' takes control.

 

[northwichcat]

Just seen posted on another forum 319377 failed on the 10:16 Lime Street to Airport service this morning while 374 failed on a Victoria service on Saturday, so it seems at the moment Northern have a 319 failure in passenger service every 48 hours, which is terrible when they only have 16 x 319 diagrams.

 

[AM9]

323 failures are a lot less common than 319 problems based on what Northern themselves report on their journey check site. Also TfGM haven't written to Northern asking why there are so many cancellations and short formations due to 323 problems but they have with 319s. And guess what? There's two cancellations on the entire Northern network currently and the reason for those cancellations is a shortage of 319s available for service!

Not verified metrics, more like anecdotes. Others have posted here that many of the service interruptions are actually OLE and driver shortage issues.

 

[158722]

I put together this post for another forum, but seems apt here regarding the 319 discussion. Given that there have been various rumours and stories about where they could go, put all those together and see what 'pick'n'mix' options exist when you total up what is possibly required for each rumour - just bringing together all the rumours and speculation into one place!

Facts/Current and expected deployment;
Northern; 20 currently, expected to rise to 32 (although 27 has also been quoted - temporary hiatus of 32 to cover for 323s/pending full 331 deployment?)
London Midland; 7 currently (if the expected 319455 has arrived from TSGN?)
South Eastern; Currently (nominally) 6, but used by TSGN vice 377s.
TSGN TL; Balance of 53 units (59 including the SE ones) and cover for the C6/PRM program at Wolverton.

Speculation/Rumours mentioned;
London Midland; Two suggestions; Replaced 2019ish with cascade of 323s ex-NOR and/or 350/4s ex-TPE. Alternatively, 319s take over Euston-Tring services, 4 diagrams, extra 8 units if all 8-car.
South Eastern; Deployment on Victoria-Bromley South/Orpington services, 8 diagrams, so 16 units if all 8-car sets. 18-20 units required if one pair kept as hot spare?
South Eastern; Deployment on Victoria-Dartford services, 4 diagrams, so 8 units if all 8-car sets. 8 units required on top of Orpington requirement?
TSGN Southern; Replacement of 313/2s on Coastaway services, 16 diagrams for 19 units.

NOR - 32 or 27
LM - 7 or 0 or 15
SET - 18 to 28
SOU - 19
Total anything between 63 and 94 units, so not all going to happen!

 

[northwichcat]

Not verified metrics, more like anecdotes. Others have posted here that many of the service interruptions are actually OLE and driver shortage issues.

As I said there was a 319 failure in service today and one on Saturday. Journeycheck shows when cancellations are due to staff shortages or infrastructure problems - a return Liverpool to Wigan was cancelled this morning due to a staff shortage. Cancellations due to 319 failures aren't that common but that's because in the event of a 319 failure they usually short form a diesel service to release a DMU to fill in for a 319, which means it appears as a short formed service on Journeycheck, not a cancelled one.

 

[AM9]

I put together this post for another forum, but seems apt here regarding the 319 discussion. Given that there have been various rumours and stories about where they could go, put all those together and see what 'pick'n'mix' options exist when you total up what is possibly required for each rumour - just bringing together all the rumours and speculation into one place!

Facts/Current and expected deployment;
Northern; 20 currently, expected to rise to 32 (although 27 has also been quoted - temporary hiatus of 32 to cover for 323s/pending full 331 deployment?)
London Midland; 7 currently (if the expected 319455 has arrived from TSGN?)
South Eastern; Currently (nominally) 6, but used by TSGN vice 377s.
TSGN TL; Balance of 53 units (59 including the SE ones) and cover for the C6/PRM program at Wolverton.

Speculation/Rumours mentioned;
London Midland; Two suggestions; Replaced 2019ish with cascade of 323s ex-NOR and/or 350/4s ex-TPE. Alternatively, 319s take over Euston-Tring services, 4 diagrams, extra 8 units if all 8-car.
South Eastern; Deployment on Victoria-Bromley South/Orpington services, 8 diagrams, so 16 units if all 8-car sets. 18-20 units required if one pair kept as hot spare?
South Eastern; Deployment on Victoria-Dartford services, 4 diagrams, so 8 units if all 8-car sets. 8 units required on top of Orpington requirement?
TSGN Southern; Replacement of 313/2s on Coastaway services, 16 diagrams for 19 units.

NOR - 32 or 27
LM - 7 or 0 or 15
SET - 18 to 28
SOU - 19
Total anything between 63 and 94 units, so not all going to happen!

Thanks for that, very interesting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I said there was a 319 failure in service today and one on Saturday. Journeycheck shows when cancellations are due to staff shortages or infrastructure problems - a return Liverpool to Wigan was cancelled this morning due to a staff shortage. Cancellations due to 319 failures aren't that common but that's because in the event of a 319 failure they usually short form a diesel service to release a DMU to fill in for a 319, which means it appears as a short formed service on Journeycheck, not a cancelled one.

What would really be valid is a figure for 319 availability based on confirmed faults, over the last year maybe in both NT area and TSGN area. That would be a simple percentage for the period. Porterbrook and the two TOCs must have the data.
Snapshots of short periods don't give any indication of actual reliability. I don't have such figures and am reluctant to draw a conclusion on any gut feeling, however it makes 319s or their maintenance regimes look, (they are after all just trains that are there to run a service).

 

[trainmania100]

London Midland is St Albans - Watford Jn, and the odd Euston services as shown in frequently requested diagrams here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1478558&postcount=10

Many thanks for that
Dont suppose you have the diagrams for Sundays north of Luton?
Many thanks
If not don't worry I can ask Thameslink

 

[swt_passenger]

Many thanks for that
Dont suppose you have the diagrams for Sundays north of Luton?

I'm afraid not, hence editing out the first part of your question.

 

[MatthewRead]

I put together this post for another forum, but seems apt here regarding the 319 discussion. Given that there have been various rumours and stories about where they could go, put all those together and see what 'pick'n'mix' options exist when you total up what is possibly required for each rumour - just bringing together all the rumours and speculation into one place!

Facts/Current and expected deployment;
Northern; 20 currently, expected to rise to 32 (although 27 has also been quoted - temporary hiatus of 32 to cover for 323s/pending full 331 deployment?)
London Midland; 7 currently (if the expected 319455 has arrived from TSGN?)
South Eastern; Currently (nominally) 6, but used by TSGN vice 377s.
TSGN TL; Balance of 53 units (59 including the SE ones) and cover for the C6/PRM program at Wolverton.

Speculation/Rumours mentioned;
London Midland; Two suggestions; Replaced 2019ish with cascade of 323s ex-NOR and/or 350/4s ex-TPE. Alternatively, 319s take over Euston-Tring services, 4 diagrams, extra 8 units if all 8-car.
South Eastern; Deployment on Victoria-Bromley South/Orpington services, 8 diagrams, so 16 units if all 8-car sets. 18-20 units required if one pair kept as hot spare?
South Eastern; Deployment on Victoria-Dartford services, 4 diagrams, so 8 units if all 8-car sets. 8 units required on top of Orpington requirement?
TSGN Southern; Replacement of 313/2s on Coastaway services, 16 diagrams for 19 units.

NOR - 32 or 27
LM - 7 or 0 or 15
SET - 18 to 28
SOU - 19
Total anything between 63 and 94 units, so not all going to happen!

Just found out that GTR are keeping the 29 387/1s for the Kings Lynn services which means the 377/5s are no longer heading there and there is talk of them either going to SouthEastern or Southern and GWR are going to get the 20 new 387s with possible additional units fitted with battery power for non-electrified routes but they still won't take the 319s :cry:

 

[158722]

Just found out that GTR are keeping the 29 387/1s for the Kings Lynn services which means the 377/5s are no longer heading there and there is talk of them either going to SouthEastern or Southern and GWR are going to get the 20 new 387s with possible additional units fitted with battery power for non-electrified routes but they still won't take the 319s :cry:

As has been discussed at length on the 387 thread.

You'll also note that this opens up doubts as to where the 40x 365s and 19 or so 377/5s which were thought to be for GWR and/or GN.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

She went up on the 16/05.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The it's not GTR livery but DfT TSGN livery. The reason for that livery is contracts were signed prior to TSGN winner being announced. GTR being a management contract will only do cost effective things that are required, so changing the livery to anything else isn't going to happen.

Sorry, at the time of posting I forgot I was thinking of GTR and TSGN synonymously when in fact they are two different entities as you rightly pointed out.

But does seem odd (to me) that TSGN liveried units are going to Northern when it would make sense (to me) for the remaining FCC units due for overhaul to go up instead. I still need to photograph a couple more FCC units for prosperity before they get repainted

 

[Mordac]

Sorry, at the time of posting I forgot I was thinking of GTR and TSGN synonymously when in fact they are two different entities as you rightly pointed out.

But does seem odd (to me) that TSGN liveried units are going to Northern when it would make sense (to me) for the remaining FCC units due for overhaul to go up instead. I still need to photograph a couple more FCC units for prosperity before they get repainted

&
Can you get rich doing it?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

&
Can you get rich doing it?

Ha - too much money spent today taking wife out to Brighton (and too much alcohol...) so yes, prosperity isn't the correct choice of word...