Class 319 future

[MatthewRead]

Seeing as GWR won't take on any 319s and London Midland and SouthEastern only want a few what happens to the rest that become surplus to requirements I hope they can find a new home but I cannot see one unless GWR change their minds and decide they want to use them after all.:cry:

 

[D365]

Why the sad face? They've had their time

 

[MatthewRead]

Why the sad face? They've had their time

Because they are good units comfortable have a good thrash and if the other MK3 based EMUs are getting a life extension why can't they?

 

[LBSCR Times]

Seeing as GWR won't take on any 319s and London Midland and SouthEastern only want a few what happens to the rest that become surplus to requirements I hope they can find a new home but I cannot see one unless GWR change their minds and decide they want to use them after all.:cry:

South Eastern may get more than just a few.....

 

[Nym]

20 odd years abuse on Thameslink?

 

[coppercapped]

Because they are good units comfortable have a good thrash and if the other MK3 based EMUs are getting a life extension why can't they?

I don't know what a 'good unit' means in this context. Their power, control and monitoring technology is now several generations old and they only have a quarter of the axles motored.

If they were to be really brought up to date about the only thing left would be the body shell.

 

[D365]

If they were to be really brought up to date about the only thing left would be the body shell.

Sounds like a job for... Vivarail!

 

[Bevan Price]

In the shorter term, I suggest that some could be usefully put on new semi-fast services on an electrified MML. For example, London St. Pancras to Corby / Derby / Nottingham, calling at St. Albans, Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering - splitting there with one portion for Corby, the other portion for Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, then Beeston & Nottingham, or Long Eaton & Derby. (A sort of MML equivalent of the LM services on WCML)

This would allow the new "express" stock to improve journey times to the larger cities & towns, calling only at Leicester, then either Nottingham or Derby / Sheffield.

Others may be stored for a while, pending possible use when the next batch of electrification schemes is started (2025 - 2035)
That might include some of:
Birmingham Snow Hill area services;
Calder Valley services (including Hebden Bridge - Preston);
Liverpool - Warrington Central - Manchester.
Manchester - Atherton - Wigan - Southport.
Leeds - Harrogate / Castleford / Barnsley / Sheffield routes.
Manchester - Marple line (assuming not grabbed by Metrolink)

Having some older emus available would be useful in reducing initial costs, with an assumption that newer units would be obtained in a few years.

 

[edwin_m]

In the shorter term, I suggest that some could be usefully put on new semi-fast services on an electrified MML. For example, London St. Pancras to Corby / Derby / Nottingham, calling at St. Albans, Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering - splitting there with one portion for Corby, the other portion for Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, then Beeston & Nottingham, or Long Eaton & Derby. (A sort of MML equivalent of the LM services on WCML)

Apart from St Albans that's pretty much what the slower EMT services do today, and there isn't the capacity available at St Pancras or on the route itself to duplicate them.

 

[Bevan Price]

Apart from St Albans that's pretty much what the slower EMT services do today, and there isn't the capacity available at St Pancras or on the route itself to duplicate them.

My suggestion was intended as a replacement for those, after electrification is complete. Pending new trains becoming afforable, Class 319 would be a useful temporary solution, and quite adequate for shorter journeys.

Other possible uses might be a Derby - Sheffield semi-fast service serving Belper, Chesterfield, Dronfield (and Dore if they cared to reinstate the fast line platforms.)
And Nottingham - Derby - Birmingham services could use them - if Derby / Birmingham ever gets wired...

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Personally think they've had their time - Southeastern is the best bet for most of them - however that's not a long term solution without a heavy refit and refurbishment. Northern could get a few more for further capacity expansion as more of the lines are electrfied, potentially. They'd be too old for the Snow Hill lines if they ever get electrified (and doubt that'll happen for a fair while considering the 172s, 168s and Locos are happy on there for the foreseeable future + it'd be a backwards step in quality from a 172).

 

[Clip]

Send them for use on C2C

 

[deltic08]

Three or four for Newcastle-Morpeth-Chathill if leasing costs are low enough.

 

[The 4th Rail]

Wouldn't happen due to the metrocentre extensions of the Morpeth service .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Others may be stored for a while, pending possible use when the next batch of electrification schemes is started (2025 - 2035)

In the year 2035, providing that I am still around, I will be 90 years of age.

How old will the Class 319 units be in 2035?

 

[tsr]

Because they are good units comfortable have a good thrash and if the other MK3 based EMUs are getting a life extension why can't they?

Have you ever actually used a 319 regularly, say for daily commuting? Drop the "good thrash" bit (something which often doesn't actually make a terribly good train) and please look at it realistically. I don't mean that in a harsh way towards you, but...

They are pretty much some of the least comfortable trains I have ever had the misfortune to ride, barring the Southern refurbishments with 2+2 seating. They are draughty, rattly old things which were left looking like a pig sty after the FCC franchise ended. Accessibility features are being updated a bit, but aren't very good anyway. The ambience is poor inside. They have no wifi, power sockets, reading lights, or (in most areas) armrests - neither do most bits of the 700s which replace them, but 319s are certainly no improvement on anything else on the line. Realistically, they can only run in 8 car formation in passenger service, and even then they have no proper through gangways to the whole train. Crash safety will be outdated by now, even if it is "good enough" at present. And, as above, they can have performance issues, even if they are not critical to Thameslink or other routes at present.

They were smart and fresh at one point, and have some great history, including some pretty innovative features - but without a massive overhaul, and very deep clean, their job may as well be done. I can almost guarantee that not one single non-enthusiast commuter will be sad to see them go. If Southeastern can use them, somehow, to make a viable addition to their fleet, I should imagine that will be the last we see of them.

My opinions on this are not unique to the 319 fleet. I wish several other fleets across the country could be binned and a fresh start made. This thread is not the time nor the place for discussion about those classes of train.

 

[Haydn1971]

My opinions on this are not unique to the 319 fleet. I wish several other fleets across the country could be binned and a fresh start made. This thread is not the time nor the place for discussion about those classes of train.

I'd second this, the 319 fleet is a great stop gap for Northern and other franchises, but need to be culled at the end of the next Northern franchise before we get into the "pacer" situation all over again. They are no longer fit for purpose.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If they're not in a bad shape structurally could they be re-tractioned and have a major overhaul and refurb (inc DDA stuff)? btw would they be able to fit into the MerseyRail tunnels?

 

[D365]

Btw would they be able to fit into the MerseyRail tunnels?

Don't, you're opening that can of worms again... Merseyrail are procuring brand-new rolling stock, that's the end of that.

Other than that, I'm sure the 319s are due for a proper overhaul, AIUI that is being undertaken at Wolverton.

 

[jon0844]

Because they are good units comfortable have a good thrash and if the other MK3 based EMUs are getting a life extension why can't they?

I have mixed views on them, as no doubt do regular commuters who probably hate them a lot more when crowded, but after the 321s get refurbed is there not a chance the ROSCO might see fit to do these? Or are they too old and worn?

As someone said, it may just be the shell that gets retained, but if they aren't totally shot corrosion wise, there might still be a business case. I think the 321s are going to look pretty much brand new and have a few years left in them. Surely they were worked pretty hard too?

 

[northwichcat]

I'd second this, the 319 fleet is a great stop gap for Northern and other franchises, but need to be culled at the end of the next Northern franchise before we get into the "pacer" situation all over again. They are no longer fit for purpose.

I think we could be in a worse situation at the end of the next franchise. Northern are set to get all the 150/1s, as well as the majority of the 150/2s and they'll be significant numbers of 156s and 158s which will all be quite old come the end of the next franchise.

 

[D365]

I have mixed views on them, as no doubt do regular commuters who probably hate them a lot more when crowded, but after the 321s get refurbed is there not a chance the ROSCO might see fit to do these? Or are they too old and worn?

Different ROSCOs:

317/318 = Angel Trains
319 = Porterbrook
320/321/322 = Eversholt

 

[jon0844]

Different ROSCOs:

317/318 = Angel Trains
319 = Porterbrook
320/321/322 = Eversholt

Perhaps, but the company doing the refurb work could approach Porterbrook and say 'hey, we can do a lovely job on your trains like we did for Eversholt' as I assume internally there are a lot of similarities?

 

[Jonny]

Wouldn't happen due to the metrocentre extensions of the Morpeth service .

True as it stands, but they could be split up (as per Liverpool to Blackpool). Then it would be viable in principle, but would there be issues? Other 31x classes have restrictions around Newcastle in the sectional appendix.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a Northerner who has travelled over the TL core on a 319, they are OK units, at least as good as equivalent DMUs and quite lively as well (at least on AC).

 

[sprinterguy]

True as it stands, but they could be split up (as per Liverpool to Blackpool).

That depends whether the statement that "the MetroCentre will have...at least 12 trains per day to and from each of Sunderland and Morpeth" is a franchise requirement or a level of service that can be amended at will by the franchisee.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the year 2035, providing that I am still around, I will be 90 years of age.

How old will the Class 319 units be in 2035?

The younger former 319/1 units (many in service with Northern as 319/3s) would be 45, but the majority of the fleet will be pushing fifty.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Birmingham Snow Hill area services;

I, and I imagine many other regular users of the Snow Hill lines, would not be impressed to see a modern diesel fleet replaced by forty year old electrics; older than any other electric fleet operated by the London Midland franchise even at present (barring the small number of 319s on the southern WCML): It would take one heck of a refurbishment to bring 319s up to the standard of the light, airy, air-conditioned 172s. Plus 4 x 20m carriages is pretty inflexible compared to the current formations that allow train lengths of anything between 2 and 6 carriages to operate.

I'd be surprised if users of the Harrogate line, for one, would be any more enthusiastic to receive 319s, when the electrified Airedale and Wharfedale lines will have seen investment in two brand new fleets of electric trains by that point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a Northerner who has travelled over the TL core on a 319, they are OK units, at least as good as equivalent DMUs and quite lively as well (at least on AC).

On Thameslink, I found them equally as depressing as those 150 units which have retained comparable 3+2 interiors. At least the Northern refresh has given them a much needed tart up so that they seem a bit brighter inside.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd be surprised if users of the Harrogate line, for one, would be any more enthusiastic to receive 319s, when the electrified Airedale and Wharfedale lines will have seen investment in two brand new fleets of electric trains by that point.

If Harrogate gets electrified before CAF end production of the Civity then it might be more cost effective in the long run to get additional Civities opposed to having a small 319 fleet alongside modern EMUs.

 

[sprinterguy]

If Harrogate gets electrified before CAF end production of the Civity then it might be more cost effective in the long run to get additional Civities opposed to having a small 319 fleet alongside modern EMUs.

Additional Civities would certainly seem the most beneficial and logical outcome in my view.

 

[ScotGG]

I've asked on here before but I don't think we worked out a definitive answer. If 319s move to Southeastern to takeover Victoria-Orpington services then that would be about 10 needed. If they takeover Victoria-Dartford that could be 3-4 more? And also Victoria-Gillingham?

Basically, all Victoria services which aren't mainline long distance could go 319s. Maybe even Ashford services too? It does end flexibility but free up a fair few networkers to allow a great deal more 12 car services on London metro services to use the infrastructure - usual caveats withstanding at Woolwich, Charing Cross etc.

With a fair few Victoria services being 4 car at the moment due to stock shortages and being incredibly overcrowded, around 25 319s could be a win-win for the franchise.

That's 25 out of 86 cl319s in total for Southeastern.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I've asked on here before but I don't think we worked out a definitive answer. If 319s move to Southeastern to takeover Victoria-Orpington services .......

With a fair few Victoria services being 4 car at the moment due to stock shortages and being incredibly overcrowded, around 25 319s could be a win-win for the franchise.

That's 25 out of 86 cl319s in total for Southeastern.

You could be closer to the answer than everyone else...
That's all I can say at the moment, as things change every week!

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'd second this, the 319 fleet is a great stop gap for Northern and other franchises, but need to be culled at the end of the next Northern franchise before we get into the "pacer" situation all over again. They are no longer fit for purpose.

The Pacers never were, let's be honest At least 319s feel like real trains.