Class 315 Withdrawals

[B&W]

Some good commentary there. All good things end. But the UK deserves a decent preserved PEP unit as they really do mark an important turning point in commuter train travel in the UK. They seemed transformational to me at the time, like the HST and APT. But yes, things move on. Nicely written post.

Totally agree about the commentary and about preserving one but just one. The PEP bodies are like Swiss Cheese now, just look closely at the 313s never mind the 315s or enjoy the rain coming out of the light fittings. I suspect all the ‘saved’ Pacers will not last as long in preservation as they did in service.
Current builds will not last as long, they are too inefficient and heavy for one thing and design will not permit cost effective life extension. It’s a bit like modern diesels are not scheduled for heavy strip down overhauls on the basis you get a new engine when that time comes as getting new will get you the latest Design and be more economic than overhaul.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Totally agree about the commentary and about preserving one but just one. The PEP bodies are like Swiss Cheese now, just look closely at the 313s never mind the 315s or enjoy the rain coming out of the light fittings. I suspect all the ‘saved’ Pacers will not last as long in preservation as they did in service.
Current builds will not last as long, they are too inefficient and heavy for one thing and design will not permit cost effective life extension. It’s a bit like modern diesels are not scheduled for heavy strip down overhauls on the basis you get a new engine when that time comes as getting new will get you the latest Design and be more economic than overhaul.

If one is to be preserved things need to start moving soon as there isn't many left now by this time next year they will all be gone! Only 19 out of 61 remain I think at present. I wonder which one they will get and what livery it will be repainted to. Hopefully NSE as the GN 313 looked good in it!

 

[WesternLancer]

If one is to be preserved things need to start moving soon as there isn't many left now by this time next year they will all be gone! Only 19 out of 61 remain I think at present. I wonder which one they will get and what livery it will be repainted to. Hopefully NSE as the GN 313 looked good in it!

See page 11 of this doc - Class 313201 - moots battery conversion to allow use within museum context.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

I hope it is held to, orgs like this have a habit of 'changing their plans' after having written detailed documents saying something a new broom comes along and says something else.
If it were to be a 315 then that would have to be a private preservation project. Is there such a proposal?

 

[samuelmorris]

Totally agree about the commentary and about preserving one but just one. The PEP bodies are like Swiss Cheese now, just look closely at the 313s never mind the 315s or enjoy the rain coming out of the light fittings. I suspect all the ‘saved’ Pacers will not last as long in preservation as they did in service.
Current builds will not last as long, they are too inefficient and heavy for one thing and design will not permit cost effective life extension. It’s a bit like modern diesels are not scheduled for heavy strip down overhauls on the basis you get a new engine when that time comes as getting new will get you the latest Design and be more economic than overhaul.

I actually think they will but not necessarily because they should, more just because economic reasons will see them sweated out well beyond end-of-life. In any case, that's for another thread

 

[221101 Voyager]

See page 11 of this doc - Class 313201 - moots battery conversion to allow use within museum context.

https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf

I hope it is held to, orgs like this have a habit of 'changing their plans' after having written detailed documents saying something a new broom comes along and says something else.
If it were to be a 315 then that would have to be a private preservation project. Is there such a proposal?

Yes there is a 315 preservation society that why I said they are slowly running out of time to secure one.

I was aware of NRM getting the lovely 313201, shame it looks like they're shoving it into Shildon Locomotion instead of it coming back home to York and taking pride of place which is a bit of a shame.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes there is a 315 preservation society that why I said they are slowly running out of time to secure one.

I was aware of NRM getting the lovely 313201, shame it looks like they're shoving it into Shildon Locomotion instead of it coming back home to York and taking pride of place which is a bit of a shame.

Thanks for that info - both good points of course!

 

[D365]

... and taking pride of place which is a bit of a shame.

York would only have the room to display one driving carriage surely.

 

[221101 Voyager]

York would only have the room to display one driving carriage surely.

True I was thinking about that.

 

[WesternLancer]

York would only have the room to display one driving carriage surely.

Possibly - tho the NRM has been awarded a multi million pound funding package for new buildings at York. However, the fashion in modern museums seems to be less is more - so a big empty space is more likely than any more, you know, erm, railway stuff - esp not trains...

 

[DustyBin]

Yes there is a 315 preservation society that why I said they are slowly running out of time to secure one.

I was aware of NRM getting the lovely 313201, shame it looks like they're shoving it into Shildon Locomotion instead of it coming back home to York and taking pride of place which is a bit of a shame.

Most of the NRM’s EMU collection is at Shildon so it will fit in nicely! I actually visit Shildon more than I do York so it suits me, but I take your point (and agree).

The 315 Preservation Society look like they’re making progress having looked at their FB updates, but as has been said time is running out. I suspect that finding a home for a 4-car EMU is going to be the main issue. I’d love to see one of these mainline certified (post-preservation) so it could run railtours, but can’t see it happening. It’s a shame, as an as-withdrawn EMU is a better starting point than a set of drawings for a never-built steam locomotive but it all comes down to how much money people are willing to put in and long term commercial viability. With the majority of MK1 and MK2 based AC EMU’s now extinct I do hope the same mistake isn’t made with the PEP based stock.

 

[samuelmorris]

I do admit it seems unlikely but I hope they succeed - I must admit, the prospect of being an old fart reminiscing going on a heritage 315 in a few decades time the same way people nostalgia about 1st gen DMUs or steamers these days is quite appealing

 

[WesternLancer]

Most of the NRM’s EMU collection is at Shildon so it will fit in nicely! I actually visit Shildon more than I do York so it suits me, but I take your point (and agree).

The 315 Preservation Society look like they’re making progress having looked at their FB updates, but as has been said time is running out. I suspect that finding a home for a 4-car EMU is going to be the main issue. I’d love to see one of these mainline certified (post-preservation) so it could run railtours, but can’t see it happening. It’s a shame, as an as-withdrawn EMU is a better starting point than a set of drawings for a never-built steam locomotive but it all comes down to how much money people are willing to put in and long term commercial viability. With the majority of MK1 and MK2 based AC EMU’s now extinct I do hope the same mistake isn’t made with the PEP based stock.

In some cases it seems leasing companies have almost donated stock to preservationists (seemed to be the case with lots of Thumber DMUs), is that the sort of thing that could happen here? Seems that sale to scrappers seems to have been the option. Maybe it's about how viable the preservationists plans appear to be?

 

[DustyBin]

In some cases it seems leasing companies have almost donated stock to preservationists (seemed to be the case with lots of Thumber DMUs), is that the sort of thing that could happen here? Seems that sale to scrappers seems to have been the option. Maybe it's about how viable the preservationists plans appear to be?

I imagine it will be donated. If you have the means to arrange collection and take it away without it costing the leasing company anything I’m sure they’re more than happy to donate a small number of old trains to preservationists. Worst case scenario would be paying scrap value I suspect.

 

[43096]

I imagine it will be donated. If you have the means to arrange collection and take it away without it costing the leasing company anything I’m sure they’re more than happy to donate a small number of old trains to preservationists. Worst case scenario would be paying scrap value I suspect.

The different ROSCOs have taken different approaches. Porterbrook will donate items (from the Thumpers onwards), whereas Angel have sold (as an example) the Pacers, but donated the amount raised to charity.

Acquisition is the easy bit, though. Looking after it, and ensuring a supply of spares, is the tough bit. I'm afraid I'm somewhat pessimistic about 315 preservation - a newly formed group preserving an EMU is a massive ask. EMU preservation is difficult and if we can't keep first generation units (which have the advantage of standard couplers to couple to a loco for use as hauled stock), then something with Tightlock couplers is going to be a bigger task still.

 

[DustyBin]

The different ROSCOs have taken different approaches. Porterbrook will donate items (from the Thumpers onwards), whereas Angel have sold (as an example) the Pacers, but donated the amount raised to charity.

Acquisition is the easy bit, though. Looking after it, and ensuring a supply of spares, is the tough bit. I'm afraid I'm somewhat pessimistic about 315 preservation - a newly formed group preserving an EMU is a massive ask. EMU preservation is difficult and if we can't keep first generation units (which have the advantage of standard couplers to couple to a loco for use as hauled stock), then something with Tightlock couplers is going to be a bigger task still.

I agree with all that which is why I think maintaining one to mainline standards is, in some ways, the best option. We’ve seen it with the AC Locomotive Group, an EMU equivalent is probably the best way to provide a secure future for old units. I doubt it will happen but that should be the aim. Apart from the obvious problem of funding, we often don’t miss or appreciate things until long after they’re gone, at which point it’s too late.

 

[43096]

I agree with all that which is why I think maintaining one to mainline standards is, in some ways, the best option. We’ve seen it with the AC Locomotive Group, an EMU equivalent is probably the best way to provide a secure future for old units. I doubt it will happen but that should be the aim. Apart from the obvious problem of funding, we often don’t miss or appreciate things until long after they’re gone, at which point it’s too late.

Even if you're mainline with it, who's going to use it? It's not great for general charter use, indeed they would be severely restricted: 75mph top speed, metro layout and no toilets doesn't tick many boxes.

 

[DustyBin]

Even if you're mainline with it, who's going to use it? It's not great for general charter use, indeed they would be severely restricted: 75mph top speed, metro layout and no toilets doesn't tick many boxes.

It would be very much enthusiasts only I suspect, which is why I don’t think it will happen. Unless it could be spot-hired for the Romford to Upminster during rolling stock shortages!

 

[43096]

It would be very much enthusiasts only I suspect, which is why I don’t think it will happen. Unless it could be spot-hired for the Romford to Upminster during rolling stock shortages!

And we know what a fickle bunch enthusiasts are! One "red pen" ride and not seen again.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The work that’s been done by ROG on the locos that are taking all these 2nd Gen EMUs to the scrapyard are of course a very encouraging start for preservationists because they remove the need of translators and have provided enough power to at least put the tail lights on! Now if it’s possible to make some modifications further to allow a loco to power the doors and lights then you could have a novel little operation there. Of course another point to make is that if any saved units were kept in an operational state then they could be used on a self contained rural branch line for special events.

 

[WesternLancer]

Even if you're mainline with it, who's going to use it? It's not great for general charter use, indeed they would be severely restricted: 75mph top speed, metro layout and no toilets doesn't tick many boxes.

Yep, pretty much a non starter. Better to hold the NRM to keeping a whole PEP unit and consider that lucky. Good luck to a 315 group but I think it's a tough call.

Mind you merseyside museums might keep a 507/508 or a vehicle? Didn't they keep an LMS unit, or was that preservationists?

 

[reddragon]

You have to remember the value of scrap.

A HST coach, Pacer or Thumper is steel, with lots of worthless junk to dispose of so its value is quite low. £50 per tonne, less costs

A class 315 is aluminium at £600 per tonne.

 

[DustyBin]

You have to remember the value of scrap.

A HST coach, Pacer or Thumper is steel, with lots of worthless junk to dispose of so its value is quite low. £50 per tonne, less costs

A class 315 is aluminium at £600 per tonne.

That’s a fair observation, however I’m not sure how much the aluminium bodywork contributes to the overall weight?

 

[DBS92042]

Realtime Trains - 5Q80 1107 Northampton Tc Up Sidings to Ilford E.M.U.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A move on RTT for this Tuesday. Presumably it will be 315815 & 315801 as I think 802 & 807 are due to go to Booths on 5/11/20.

 

[Ewan M]

Realtime Trains - 5Q80 1107 Northampton Tc Up Sidings to Ilford E.M.U.D.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A move on RTT for this Tuesday. Presumably it will be 315815 & 315801 as I think 802 & 807 are due to go to Booths on 5/11/20.

Think everyone’s gonna go crazy should the pioneer 315 be sent to its South Wales grave this week!

 

[221101 Voyager]

Think everyone’s gonna go crazy should the pioneer 315 be sent to its South Wales grave this week!

I was hoping that 801 or 861 would've been preserved you know the 1st or the last one, but that clearly won't happen.

Is there another unit that is significant for any reason?

 

[prod_pep]

Is there another unit that is significant for any reason?

Interestingly, according to Ashley Butlin's British Multiple Units: Volume 3, 315841 was in fact the last 315 (and thus last PEP-derived EMU) to be built. Units 315801-831 were completed from May to November 1980, then 315842-861 were built, taking construction to April 1981. The final units to be built were 315832-841, with 841 the last to be completed in July 1981. I believe this discrepancy is due to the two traction motor types and their availability at the time of construction: 315801-841 originally had Brush motors and 315842-861 GEC motors.

Sadly, 315841 has long been scrapped so the last-built example isn't going to be saved.

Of the 315s left in service, I'm struggling to think of anything particularly significant for any of them. I think the Bed-Pan loans for driver training in 1980-81 are all withdrawn (315807/850/852 were the three I recall but there might be another) and the first in passenger service have definitely all finished (315802/804/806/808/809/811). It's really a case of preserve the best of whichever examples are left at the end.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Interestingly, according to Ashley Butlin's British Multiple Units: Volume 3, 315841 was in fact the last 315 (and thus last PEP-derived EMU) to be built. Units 315801-831 were completed from May to November 1980, then 315842-861 were built, taking construction to April 1981. The final units to be built were 315832-841, with 841 the last to be completed in July 1981. I believe this discrepancy is due to the two traction motor types and their availability at the time of construction: 315801-841 originally had Brush motors and 315842-861 GEC motors.

Sadly, 315841 has long been scrapped so the last-built example isn't going to be saved.

Of the 315s left in service, I'm struggling to think of anything particularly significant for any of them. I think the Bed-Pan loans for driver training in 1980-81 are all withdrawn (315807/850/852 were the three I recall but there might be another) and the first in passenger service have definitely all finished (315802/804/806/808/809/811). It's really a case of preserve the best of whichever examples are left at the end.

That's some very interesting history I never knew about, thanks!

Indeed, just get the unit in the best condition. What livery would you like to see it in once preserved? I'd like NSE as I've never seen an NSE train as I'm not old enough to have seen them!

 

[43096]

I was hoping that 801 or 861 would've been preserved you know the 1st or the last one, but that clearly won't happen.

Is there another unit that is significant for any reason?

If you're preserving one, wouldn't you take the one in the best condition? EMU preservation is hard enough as it is without making things more difficult.

 

[221101 Voyager]

If you're preserving one, wouldn't you take the one in the best condition? EMU preservation is hard enough as it is without making things more difficult.

Read the post above, that's what I and prod_pep agree on.

 

[prod_pep]

That's some very interesting history I never knew about, thanks!
I'd like NSE as I've never seen an NSE train as I'm not old enough to have seen them!

No problem. Yes, definitely NSE for me too.