Class 175s to GWR

[geoffk]

The 175 training runs don't seem to be showing on RTT this week. Anyone know more please?

 

[paulwestwood]

Herding students into the correct coaches will be a huge faff. Then if only the rear set is opened at Barnstaple you can guarantee there will be somebody for a short platform who forgets to transfer to the front at Umberleigh!

Doesn't help when all the students at barnstaple want to sit with their mates, who will have to board in the front at all the short platforms, will we also be getting another member of staff onboard as well.

 

[Minstral25]

A 3-car 158 is sufficient for the Cornish Mainline local diagrams, so 3-car 175s will be sufficient for Cornwall, and if you require a couple of diagrams, they could be paired up; however, there are a number of short platforms on the route, which might prove to be an issue for some 175 formations. A 3-car 175 has 189 seats, a 3-car 158 has 200 seats, a 3-car 230 has 142 seats, and a 4-car 255 Castle has 301 seats. The Cornish Mainline also gets an hourly intercity service, which calls most stations between Penzance and Plymouth, as well as hourly local services.

The current most used units on the Cornish Main line local services are 4-car Castles with 301 seats, and 5 car IET's with 326 seats - you are suggesting that a 3 car 175 with 189 seats replaces both formations, basically removing at least 112 seats from all of those services. I'm not a local user but it doesn't seem logical that you would reduce seats like that, especially considering several comments in the press about severe overcrowding on services in Cornwall during summer months.

 

[vicbury]

So that frees up 150s to extend services on St Ives to St Erth, both directly, and possibly indirectly by the freed up 165s, 166s, and 158s.

Overall, the 175 are an expansion of the GWR fleet, even though they partially replace the Castles, so that allows for longer trains in places that need them, like St Ives.

The fleet expansion can't come soon enough. My last two journeys between Bristol Temple Meads and Severn Tunnel Junction at peak times (Portsmouth - Cardiff service) have been two coaches instead of five! Hideous.

 

[RPI]

The current most used units on the Cornish Main line local services are 4-car Castles with 301 seats, and 5 car IET's with 326 seats - you are suggesting that a 3 car 175 with 189 seats replaces both formations, basically removing at least 112 seats from all of those services. I'm not a local user but it doesn't seem logical that you would reduce seats like that, especially considering several comments in the press about severe overcrowding on services in Cornwall during summer months.

Most of the current trains carry fresh air about with the exception of the London services, a three car 175 will be more than adequate on most of these services, with the exception of one or two college time trains around Plymouth/Truro

 

[Roylang]

Most of the current trains carry fresh air about with the exception of the London services, a three car 175 will be more than adequate on most of these services, with the exception of one or two college time trains around Plymouth/Truro

I’ll remember that next time I have to stand going up country from St.Erth in the summer.

 

[Goldfish62]

I’ll remember that next time I have to stand going up country from St.Erth in the summer.

The comment about carrying fresh air certainly raised my eyebrows. It's nonsense of course. Having said that I think the three car, or a pair of 175s will mostly be fine.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The current most used units on the Cornish Main line local services are 4-car Castles with 301 seats, and 5 car IET's with 326 seats - you are suggesting that a 3 car 175 with 189 seats replaces both formations, basically removing at least 112 seats from all of those services. I'm not a local user but it doesn't seem logical that you would reduce seats like that, especially considering several comments in the press about severe overcrowding on services in Cornwall during summer months.

There was plenty of seats on the Local trains even during the Peak hence why I say a 3 car 175 will be fine and if you really want some extra capacity then run a pair of 2 car 175s to create a 4 car. The Platforms in Cornwall tend to be between 80-110metres. Do the class 175s feature ASDO?

 

[Goldfish62]

There was plenty of seats on the Local trains even during the Peak hence why I say a 3 car 175 will be fine and if you really want some extra capacity then run a pair of 2 car 175s to create a 4 car. The Platforms in Cornwall tend to be between 80-110metres. Do the class 175s feature ASDO?

The shortest platforms I can find are Lostwithiel at 103m. Most are a fair bit longer than this.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There was plenty of seats on the Local trains even during the Peak

Do you have a source for that?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Do you have a source for that?

From my recent muti day trip in Devon & Cornwall.

 

[ollyexe2808]

There was plenty of seats on the Local trains even during the Peak hence why I say a 3 car 175 will be fine and if you really want some extra capacity then run a pair of 2 car 175s to create a 4 car. The Platforms in Cornwall tend to be between 80-110metres. Do the class 175s feature ASDO?

I would argue peak in Devon and Cornwall is quite variable across the year....a sunny Sunday morning in February can mean a very full 2 car 150 which is standing room only on the Exeter to Newton Abbot stretch whilst a Thursday at peak morning commute time can be quite empt. As a resident of Exeter, it is more often that I see trains busy and full than empty - but times can vary and I don't think the demand is evenly spaced - so a 5-car Cardiff-Penzance service can be empty on a Saturday lunchtime but busy that same day at 2 or 3pm.

The market in the South West is not just seasonal but also about opportunistic demand - I hope the introduction of the 175s evens out some of that demand and enables more rolling stock coverage across the whole network.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The shortest platforms I can find are Lostwithiel at 103m. Most are a fair bit longer than this.

Dockyard is the shortest platform at only 79m and 96m, then it is Menheniot at 97m and then Devonport at 100m.

I would argue peak in Devon and Cornwall is quite variable across the year....a sunny Sunday morning in February can mean a very full 2 car 150 which is standing room only on the Exeter to Newton Abbot stretch whilst a Thursday at peak morning commute time can be quite empt. As a resident of Exeter, it is more often that I see trains busy and full than empty - but times can vary and I don't think the demand is evenly spaced - so a 5-car Cardiff-Penzance service can be empty on a Saturday lunchtime but busy that same day at 2 or 3pm.

The market in the South West is not just seasonal but also about opportunistic demand - I hope the introduction of the 175s evens out some of that demand and enables more rolling stock coverage across the whole network.

I thought the Cardiff now had been cut back to Exeter as part of the 175 introduction? The only busy trains I was were the Longer distance services which went past Taunton from Penzance/Plymouth and a Riveria Line service due to train cancellations because of staff shortages.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From my recent muti day trip in Devon & Cornwall.

So you went on holiday to Cornwall, got on a few trains that weren't that busy, and from that you've deduced the stock doesn't need to be any longer than two or three coaches. That's not how it works

 

[BerkshireRails]

So you went on holiday to Cornwall, got on a few trains that weren't that busy, and from that you've deduced the stock doesn't need to be any longer than two or three coaches. That's not how it works

And this number of 3-4 coaches is based on how many coaches the GWR diagram shows for the 15X workings, which is 3 to 4 car services; hence, I feel that the 175s can also work in 3 to 4-car formations. In addition, do the 175s have ASDO?

 

[brad465]

A drag from Ely to Wolverton has appeared on RTT for Thursday, is this a 175?

Realtime Trains | 8Q70 0400 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to March | 10/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 8Q70 0400 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to March on 10/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[tfw756rider]

And this number of 3-4 coaches is based on how many coaches the GWR diagram shows for the 15X workings, which is 3 to 4 car services; hence, I feel that the 175s can also work in 3 to 4-car formations. In addition, do the 175s have ASDO?

The 175s don't have Automatic Selective Door Operation - ASDO (or any kind of system intended to be used as Selective Door Operation - SDO); they only have TUDI (Trailing Unit Door Isolation switch).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Operationally the shortest platform in Cornwall is Saltash (Up) which is limited to front 2 cars due to the position of the starting signal. (The points for the single line on the Royal Albert Bridge are right on the platform end so the signal is quite a long way back down the platform.) For multi-set 175 this requires a local-door operation if there is no ASDO and so alighting pax will need to be in the front set.

 

[Goldfish62]

From my recent muti day trip in Devon & Cornwall.

With the greatest of respect I think those of us who use the services at various times of day throughout the year have a greater insight into loadings.

 

[Snow1964]

The 175s don't have Automatic Selective Door Operation - ASDO (or any kind of system intended to be used as Selective Door Operation - SDO); they only have TUDI (Trailing Unit Door Isolation switch).

TUDI is less than ideal in an area with seasonal demand, and lots of unfamiliar users and holidaymakers. There are unmanned stations with negligible platform displays and PA so someone is bound to get in rear unit, but then can't alight at their destination. It is a recipe for disaster unless guards keep checking passengers destination in back unit.

There is probably a strong case for lengthening a few platforms if it can be done cheaply enough (and I commuted into Waterloo when all the extensions for 10car were going in 2015-2017, so know there are kits of standard parts available, many of which seem to be installed over number of nights so didn't interrupt the service). In an ideal world would be looking at 140m length, (so can operate anything upto pairs of 3car units, or 5car IET), but it is likely that something shorter would be cost effective on some lines where 6car formations are unlikely.

 

[ollyexe2808]

The only busy trains I was were the Longer distance services which went past Taunton from Penzance/Plymouth and a Riveria Line service due to train cancellations because of staff shortages.

I would say this is not representative. My local station is St Thomas and I can vouch for a very different picture throughout the day on the local trains across the Riviera and Avocet lines. Similarly I often get the train to Newton Abbot and Plymouth and the local stoppers are well used. Yes there are quiet times but those are the exception not the rule.

 

[RPI]

I’ll remember that next time I have to stand going up country from St.Erth in the summer.

Bear in mind I work these trains daily, I'd say my point is most definitely valid. A three car 175 will be more than adequate outside of school/college times. Which service have you had to stand on?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

I would say this is not representative. My local station is St Thomas and I can vouch for a very different picture throughout the day on the local trains across the Riviera and Avocet lines. Similarly I often get the train to Newton Abbot and Plymouth and the local stoppers are well used. Yes there are quiet times but those are the exception not the rule.

My point is purely related to the Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance stoppers, the Exmouth to Paignton is another matter, they are very busy from start to end of service regardless of day or time of year!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

I would also add, that currently some of these services are operated using 3 car 158's and don't struggle for capacity, the current use of IET's on some of these services is a total waste.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Bear in mind I work these trains daily, I'd say my point is most definitely valid. A three car 175 will be more than adequate outside of school/college times. Which service have you had to stand on?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==


My point is purely related to the Exeter/Plymouth to Penzance stoppers, the Exmouth to Paignton is another matter, they are very busy from start to end of service regardless of day or time of year!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

I would also add, that currently some of these services are operated using 3 car 158's and don't struggle for capacity, the current use of IET's on some of these services is a total waste.

Let's say you diagram 9 of 16 3 cars on Penzance to Plymouth/Exeter with another 3 units on Barnstaple. Then 2 of 10 2 cars on Falmouth and another two on Nequay and finally 2 on Okehampton. You can use the freed-up 150s to strengthen services like the Riviera Line. Penzance to Plymouth/Exeter also gets an hourly 9 or 10 car from London which can soak up any passengers left behind. That leaves you with 18 sets in use, with some more diagrams could be made like the Axminster services. I don't think there would be enough units to put the 175s on Riviera Line however you could certainly have 3 car Turbos and 4 car 150s as standard.

 

[RPI]

Let's say you diagram 9 of 16 3 cars on Penzance to Plymouth/Exeter with another 3 units on Barnstaple. Then 2 of 10 2 cars on Falmouth and another two on Nequay and finally 2 on Okehampton. You can use the freed-up 150s to strengthen services like the Riviera Line. Penzance to Plymouth/Exeter also gets an hourly 9 or 10 car from London which can soak up any passengers left behind. That leaves you with 18 sets in use, with some more diagrams could be made like the Axminster services. I don't think there would be enough units to put the 175s on Riviera Line however you could certainly have 3 car Turbos and 4 car 150s as standard.

You wouldn't want the 175's on the Exmouth Paignton line, like 158's, the doors at the ends of the coaches don't suit the stop start nature of the line. The current 150/Turbo's are ideal for the route with their commuter type layout of the trains.

 

[Ashley Hill]

You can use the freed-up 150s to strengthen services like the Riviera Line. Penzance to Plymouth/Exeter

Were the 150s not cascading west for the Cornish Metro?

 

[The exile]

Were the 150s not cascading west for the Cornish Metro?

Yes - for a start, end-door units would be as unsuitable on Truro - Falmouth as they would be on the Paignton - Exmouth circuit. That then rules 175s out for Newquay as well.

 

[Roylang]

Bear in mind I work these trains daily, I'd say my point is most definitely valid. A three car 175 will be more than adequate outside of school/college times. Which service have you had to stand on?

Summer holiday season, so not school/college times, I have had to stand several times St.Erth - Truro, normally when a 4-car 150 formation, but also a Castle set last summer.

Yes, things are better than they were pre-Covid, but still have found capacity to be an issue.

Roy

 

[irish_rail]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2025 ==

I would also add, that currently some of these services are operated using 3 car 158's and don't struggle for capacity, the current use of IET's on some of these services is a total waste.

1219 3 car 158 off plymouth to Penzance on Monday had standees. Don't forget alot of these trains connect off London services and are swamped at Plymouth when not formed of a 5 car IET. Saturday mornings too, especially when Argyle are at home are going to need more than a 3 car. I like 175s, I think they look good trains, but I do fear we are going to see overcrowding in a way that we just haven't seen down here on local stuff, post covid.

 

[Goldfish62]

Summer holiday season, so not school/college times, I have had to stand several times St.Erth - Truro, normally when a 4-car 150 formation, but also a Castle set last summer.

Yes, things are better than they were pre-Covid, but still have found capacity to be an issue.

Roy

It's certainly true that trains can get quite heavily loaded at St Erth in the summer with passengers having had a day out in St Ives. Can be the same in the mornings in the opposite direction - big tip-out at St Erth for St Ives.

 

[St. Paddy]

A drag from Ely to Wolverton has appeared on RTT for Thursday, is this a 175?

Realtime Trains | 8Q70 0400 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to March | 10/07/2025

Real-time train running information for 8Q70 0400 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to March on 10/07/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Reported as 175101/113 T&T by 37501/510. Passed March 74 late and no further reports on RTT. May be in trouble