Class 175s to GWR

[JN114]

Today's training runs with 175002 have been cancelled due to a 'signalling systems failure' that only seems to have affected these workings. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Issue with the signalling coming on/off Laira depot; leaving the 175 and a couple of IETs trapped on depot.

Also caused a few cancellations in the fairly early morning in Cornwall and several short forms

 

[paultucker1012]

Thanks for this.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

5D08 departure from Newton Abbot on Mon 23/6/25 (not my video)

Friend wanted me to post this on his behalf.

 

[REVUpminster]

It is interesting the 175 has been using at Plymouth platform TL (which I suppose was part of platform three?) for which entry and exit is via shunt signals.

 

[TurboMan]

It is interesting the 175 has been using at Plymouth platform TL (which I suppose was part of platform three?) for which entry and exit is via shunt signals.

TL isn't a platform, it's the through line between platforms 4 & 5. The 175 runs have been turning round there, except for the hour between the am and pm runs for which the train is going into the dock (the platform line that terminates head on to platform 3 - probably the one you're thinking of, as movements in and out are signalled using position light signals).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Will GWR/Angel be required to fit an external PIS to the side of the 175s under PRM legislation?

Has that become a requirement at some point for existing builds? East Midlands Railway didn't need to have it fitted to their older 170s (without it) for their transfer to them in the early 2020s.

My memory is hazy but isn't there something about only needing an external display on the side or the end of the vehicle? If so, since the 175s have a PIS display in the cab windscreens only coach B (the centre car of the 3-car units, which doesn't exist on the 2-car units) would need displays on the sides, even assuming the 175s don't have 'grandfather rights' to get round that. Of course my memory could be playing tricks on me...

 

[Ben Anslow]

My memory is hazy but isn't there something about only needing an external display on the side or the end of the vehicle? If so, since the 175s have a PIS display in the cab windscreens only coach B (the centre car of the 3-car units, which doesn't exist on the 2-car units) would need displays on the sides, even assuming the 175s don't have 'grandfather rights' to get round that. Of course my memory could be playing tricks on me...

I believe you are correct as many of trains have undergone a modernisation process eg 155,156,158 etc meeting minimum regulations side displays I’m sure don’t credit it for I may be incorrect but was a 2004/5 thing being a requirement before was a “luxury” I could be wrong on dates but a practical guess on rolling stock built through those years not an expert on that either

 

[D365]

I believe you are correct as many of trains have undergone a modernisation process eg 155,156,158 etc meeting minimum regulations side displays I’m sure don’t credit it for I may be incorrect but was a 2004/5 thing being a requirement before was a “luxury” I could be wrong on dates but a practical guess on rolling stock built through those years not an expert on that either

Have any Class 15x vehicles got sideways facing destination indicators?

 

[tfw756rider]

Have any Class 15x vehicles got sideways facing destination indicators?

I don't think so, no. They didn't come in until the late 170 builds and the 168/2s around 2004 time. And East Midlands Railway had older 170s (without them) transferred to them in the early 2020s and they didn't have to have them retrofitted. So I'm not sure why there would be a requirement for them to be retrofitted to the 175s for Great Western Railway operation as @TT-ONR-NRN asked, unless there's some very recent requirement to do so that we don't know about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2025 ==

Just to be clear, what exactly will the 175s be working? Am I right in saying it will be:

• Combined South Devon and Cornish Main Line services (between Exeter St Davids and Penzance, via [Dawlish/Teignmouth etc. and] Plymouth)
• Cornish Main Line-only services (between Plymouth and Penzance)
• South Devon Main Line-only services (between Exeter St Davids and Plymouth [via Dawlish/Teignmouth etc.])
• Tarka Line services (between Exeter Central and Barnstaple)
• Dartmoor Line services (between Exeter Central and Okehampton)

Please let me know if there's anything to add/remove from the list.

 

[The exile]

Granted, but possibly an option as how do you get a 5 carriage sprinter from a overstretched fleet of 2 carriage units.

By getting all those 175s into service.

 

[Anonymous10]

By getting all those 175s into service.

I personally dont see it freeing up enough units but we will see.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I personally dont see it freeing up enough units but we will see.

The 175s are replacing the Castle Sets, which will be withdrawn, the class 158s, which will move to Bristol Metro and IETs. The Class 158s will release some Turbos to head back to London Thames Valley to allow extra services to be run.

 

[REVUpminster]

Devon will still need the Turbos for Paignton-Exmouth. They seem to be using 5 at the moment. 175s not suitable on Paignton-Exmouth but inevitable they will be used from time to time just as 158s are.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 175s are replacing the Castle Sets, which will be withdrawn, the class 158s, which will move to Bristol Metro and IETs. The Class 158s will release some Turbos to head back to London Thames Valley to allow extra services to be run.

I understand the theory, I am more questioning myself if it'll release enough units to do all the below, please note these are what my understanding of the plans are.

Remove all but 1 diagram of 16x stock from Portsmouth services.
Remove 158s from use in cornwall and Devon.
Remove class 80x from stopping services in cornwall and south Devon.
Release units for cornwall metro enhancements (namely Newquay to falmouth).

This all seems somewhat doable, however I think releasing enough units to reliably have 5 coach formations on st Ives (effectively meaning 2 3 coach units) may be pushing it a little as youd need to free up 2 units to split plus another 2 to join them with.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Devon will still need the Turbos for Paignton-Exmouth. They seem to be using 5 at the moment. 175s not suitable on Paignton-Exmouth but inevitable they will be used from time to time just as 158s are.

As far as I know, the Exeter Turbos will remain in Devon; it is just the Bristol Turbos that will be moving.

 

[cactustwirly]

As far as I know, the Exeter Turbos will remain in Devon; it is just the Bristol Turbos that will be moving.

They are all Bristol or Reading based

 

[BerkshireRails]

I understand the theory, I am more questioning myself if it'll release enough units to do all the below, please note these are what my understanding of the plans are.

Remove all but 1 diagram of 16x stock from Portsmouth services.
Remove 158s from use in cornwall and Devon.
Remove class 80x from stopping services in cornwall and south Devon.
Release units for cornwall metro enhancements (namely Newquay to falmouth).

This all seems somewhat doable, however I think releasing enough units to reliably have 5 coach formations on st Ives (effectively meaning 2 3 coach units) may be pushing it a little as youd need to free up 2 units to split plus another 2 to join them with.

There are 26 class 175s heading to GWR. There is currently 9 Cornish Mainline Diagrams stopper diagrams, 3 are taken up by Castles, 1 is taken up by 158s and the other 5 are taken up by IETs. 5 car trains aren't really needed on Cornish Mainline stoppers, 2, 3 and 4 car 175s will be enough. Okehampton takes 2 units and Barnstaple takes 3 units, so your up to 14 units. Falmouth to Newquay will probably need 5 units so that takes you up to 19 and if St Ives gets two units then that takes you to 21 units which is probably as many as you want to use on diagrams for spares and maintenance.


Cornish Mainline local Diagrams
Diagram 1 (IET) = 5E02 05:15 Long Rock-Penzance -> 2E02 05:40 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 2C14 09:26 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2E15 12:50 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 3C24 16:21 Exeter St David's-Plymouth -> 2C34 17:46 Plymouth-Penzance -> 5C34 19:55 Penzance-Long Rock

Diagram 2 (IET) = 5P04 06:03 Long Rock-Penzance -> 2P04 06:28 Penzance-Plymouth -> 2E04 08:49 Plymouth-Exeter St David's -> 2C18 10:27 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2P17 13:50 Penzance-Plymouth -> 2C31 15:56 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2P27 18:50 Penzance-Plymouth -> 5P27 21:09 Plymouth-Laira T&RSMD

Diagram 3 (HST) = 5C00 04:47 Laira T&RSMD-Plymouth -> 2C00 05:53 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2E06 07:46 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 2C20 11:28 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2P20 15:15 Penzance-Plymouth -> 5P20 17:34 Plymouth-XLZ

Diagram 4 (IET) = 5C02 06:03 Laira T&RSMD-Plymouth -> 2C02 06:40 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2E08 08:50 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 2C27 12:55 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2E23 16:50 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 2C44 21:31 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 5C44 00:55 Penzance-Long Rock

Diagram 5 (15X) = 5C03 05:30 Exeter-Exeter St David's -> 2C30 05:51 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2P09 09:50 Penzance-Plymouth -> 2C23 12:19 Penzance-Plymouth -> 2P19 14:50 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2C33 17:00 Plymouth-Liskeard -> 5P22 17:40 Liskeard-Liskeard -> 2P22 17:56 Liskeard-Plymouth -> 2C36 18:30 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2E30 21:00 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 5E30 00:36 Exeter St David's-Exeter

Diagram 6 (IET) = 3U06 03:15 Laira T&RSMD-Exeter St David's -> 2C05 06:55 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2E11 10:50 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 2C32 15:28 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2E28 19:15 Penzance-Exeter St David's -> 5P28 22:55 Exeter St David's-Laira T&RSMD

Diagram 7 (IET) = 5J74 05:43 Laira T&RSMD-Plymouth -> 3E09 06:48 Plymouth-Exeter St David's -> 2C09 08:09 Exeter St David's-Penzance -> 2P13 11:50 Penzance-Plymouth -> 2C28 14:42 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2P24 17:15 Penzance-Plymouth -> 5P24 19:36 Plymouth-Laira T&RSMD -> 5E29 21:48 Laira T&RSMD-Plymouth -> 2E29 22:23 Plymouth-Exeter St David's -> 5E29 23:35 Exeter St David's-Exeter New Yard

Diagram 8 (HST) = 5C11 09:45 Laira T&RSMD-Plymouth -> 2C11 10:14 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2P16 13:15 Penzance-Plymouth -> 5P16 15:20 Plymouth-Laira T&RSMD

Diagram 9 (HST) = 5C26 13:12 Laira T&RSMD-Plymouth -> 2C26 13:40 Plymouth-Penzance -> 2P21 15:52 Penzance-Plymouth -> 5P21 17:56 Plymouth-Laira T&RSMD

They are all Bristol or Reading based

GWR Class 165s are Bristol based.

I am unsure as to their fate but I believe it was mentioned up thread that TFW and SWR also bought 6DMs 3 Trailers and 4 DMs respectively. Could GWR buy any of these to source for an even larger fleet?

They are spare parts Donors for TfWs and SWRs fleet of units.

 

[The exile]

I personally dont see it freeing up enough units but we will see.

St Ives already sees 2x150s in the summer so all it needs to boost that to 5 cars is 1 150 car (or more practically 1 unit - with 27 arriving)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2025 ==

There are 26 class 175s heading to GWR. There is currently 9 Cornish Mainline Diagrams stopper diagrams, 3 are taken up by Castles, 1 is taken up by 158s and the other 5 are taken up by IETs. 5 car trains aren't really needed on Cornish Mainline stoppers, 2, 3 and 4 car 175s will be enough. Okehampton takes 2 units and Barnstaple takes 3 units, so your up to 14 units. Falmouth to Newquay will probably need 5 units so that takes you up to 19 and if St Ives gets two units then that takes you to 21 units which is probably as many as you want to use on diagrams for spares

Unless you’re saying that Falmouth to Newquay will need 5 units on top of those currently required, those 5 are then releasing 3 (?) 150s to strengthen things elsewhere (like St Ives)

 

[Minstral25]

There are 26 class 175s heading to GWR. There is currently 9 Cornish Mainline Diagrams stopper diagrams, 3 are taken up by Castles, 1 is taken up by 158s and the other 5 are taken up by IETs. 5 car trains aren't really needed on Cornish Mainline stoppers, 2, 3 and 4 car 175s will be enough. Okehampton takes 2 units and Barnstaple takes 3 units, so your up to 14 units. Falmouth to Newquay will probably need 5 units so that takes you up to 19 and if St Ives gets two units then that takes you to 21 units which is probably as many as you want to use on diagrams for spares and maintenance.

Surely with 26 Class 175's, there could be 9 Cornish main line diagrams will take 18 units (running in pairs), Okehampton 2 units (single) and Barnstaple 3 units (Single) taking you to 23 out of 26 Class 175's in use every day.

 

[Trainbike46]

Surely with 26 Class 175's, there could be 9 Cornish main line diagrams will take 18 units (running in pairs), Okehampton 2 units (single) and Barnstaple 3 units (Single) taking you to 23 out of 26 Class 175's in use every day.

But that frees up:
Castles (for scrap)
80x (for Mainline IC duties ?)
158s
whatever is currently running Okehampton and Barnstaple

So would still enable longer units for the St Erth - St Ives shuttle

 

[BerkshireRails]

Surely with 26 Class 175's, there could be 9 Cornish main line diagrams will take 18 units (running in pairs), Okehampton 2 units (single) and Barnstaple 3 units (Single) taking you to 23 out of 26 Class 175's in use every day.

A 3-car 158 is sufficient for the Cornish Mainline local diagrams, so 3-car 175s will be sufficient for Cornwall, and if you require a couple of diagrams, they could be paired up; however, there are a number of short platforms on the route, which might prove to be an issue for some 175 formations. A 3-car 175 has 189 seats, a 3-car 158 has 200 seats, a 3-car 230 has 142 seats, and a 4-car 255 Castle has 301 seats. The Cornish Mainline also gets an hourly intercity service, which calls most stations between Penzance and Plymouth, as well as hourly local services.

But that frees up:
Castles (for scrap)
80x (for Mainline IC duties ?)
158s
whatever is currently running Okehampton and Barnstaple

So would still enable longer units for the St Erth - St Ives shuttle

Okehampton and Barnstaple, get 150s, 158s, 165s and 166s.
The 158s will go to Bristol.

Unless you’re saying that Falmouth to Newquay will need 5 units on top of those currently required, those 5 are then releasing 3 (?) 150s to strengthen things elsewhere (like St Ives)

The five units includes the existing 3 units in use.

 

[Trainbike46]

Okehampton and Barnstaple, get 150s, 158s, 165s and 166s.
The 158s will go to Bristol.

So that frees up 150s to extend services on St Ives to St Erth, both directly, and possibly indirectly by the freed up 165s, 166s, and 158s.

Overall, the 175 are an expansion of the GWR fleet, even though they partially replace the Castles, so that allows for longer trains in places that need them, like St Ives.

 

[REVUpminster]

Okehampton is getting two 3 car 175 which frees up 2 150s for Cornwall. Barnstaple which has a big capacity problem could get three 3 cars coupled with 3 two car units to give 5 car sets. Or they could use 6 two car units for the three diagrams giving 4 car sets. Whatever works best
Newquay could be the big winner with a one hour service instead of two hours should increase the passenger numbers where two car 150s are not enough. So Paignton-Exmouth might need more turbos to free up 150s unless 230s are sent into Cornwall. With the 158s gone there is space at Exeter for 175s to stable overnight as do some of the turbos.

 

[BerkshireRails]

So that frees up 150s to extend services on St Ives to St Erth, both directly, and possibly indirectly by the freed up 165s, 166s, and 158s.

Overall, the 175 are an expansion of the GWR fleet, even though they partially replace the Castles, so that allows for longer trains in places that need them, like St Ives.

The shortest platform on the St Ives branch is 105 metres long and limits trains to 5 cars formed from 20m cars. The spare 158s, 165s & 166s will move East with the 158s going to Bristol and the 165s and 166s going to London Thames Valley.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2025 ==

If the turnarounds are so tight that there isn't even time for a driver to change ends, then maybe even with fast charging this isn't the appropriate route.

They have a four-minute booked turnaround time at St Erth's.

 

[Trainbike46]

The shortest platform on the St Ives branch is 105 metres long and limits trains to 5 cars formed from 20m cars. The spare 158s, 165s & 166s will move East with the 158s going to Bristol and the 165s and 166s going to London Thames Valley.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2025 ==

Aren't there some 150s working around Bristol that could be freed up if the 150s freed up directly aren't sufficient?

They have a four-minute booked turnaround time at St Erth's.

Four minutes booked, but that presumably means they sometimes turn around faster if arriving slightly delayed?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Aren't there some 150s working around Bristol that could be freed up if the 150s freed up directly aren't sufficient?

Four minutes booked, but that presumably means they sometimes turn around faster if arriving slightly delayed?

There is no regular 150 working in the Bristol area as they mainly work Devon & Cornwall of the 20-strong fleet. There are only 16 daily diagrams for the GWR 150/2s; there used to be 17 diagrams in 2019.
Allocations Sunday
Ives = 2 Units
Falmouth = 2 Units
Looe = 1 Units
Gunnislake = 1 Units
Newquay = 1 Units
Okehampton = 2 Units
Riveria = 5 Units
Cornish Mainline 2 = Units



St Erth's they arrive at XX:14 & XX:44 and depart at XX:18 & XX:48
St Ives they arrive at XX:28 & XX:58 and depart at XX:03 & XX:33
There will be times when it has less than four minutes, however, St Ives is a self-contained branch of Line Henley-On-Thames.

 

[Trainbike46]

There is no regular 150 working in the Bristol area as they mainly work Devon & Cornwall of the 20-strong fleet. There are only 16 daily diagrams for the GWR 150/2s; there used to be 17 diagrams in 2019.
Allocations Sunday
Ives = 2 Units
Falmouth = 2 Units
Looe = 1 Units
Gunnislake = 1 Units
Newquay = 1 Units
Okehampton = 2 Units
Riveria = 5 Units
Cornish Mainline 2 = Units

Clearly things have changed than since I last was in the Bristol area (which was a few years ago, admittedly), or alternatively they were in the Bristol area unusually while I was there.

What does "Riveria" mean?

Both the Okehampton and the mainline units will be freed up by the 175s, so would be available to run longer services on St Ives to St Erth services (and other places, given the numbers available.

St Erth's they arrive at XX:14 & XX:44 and depart at XX:18 & XX:48
St Ives they arrive at XX:28 & XX:58 and depart at XX:03 & XX:33
There will be times when it has less than four minutes, however, St Ives is a self-contained branch of Line Henley-On-Thames.

I was not questioning your 4 minutes scheduled, I was just stating that in practice they may not reach that, if there are any delays en-route (and that will happen ocasionally). Out of a 4-minute turn-around even a 1-minute late arrival will cut the time available for charging significantly.

If it was up to me, I wouldn't select a route that has 2 drivers, to ensure it keeps to time by enabling very quick turn-arounds as the route using the fast-charge system used by the 230s, or at least not without some intervention to ensure the battery stays sufficiently charged even if the turn-around time drops. Otherwise you risk delays leading to insufficient charging leading to more delays.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Clearly things have changed than since I last was in the Bristol area (which was a few years ago, admittedly), or alternatively they were in the Bristol area unusually while I was there.

What does "Riveria" mean?

Both the Okehampton and the mainline units will be freed up by the 175s, so would be available to run longer services on St Ives to St Erth services (and other places, given the numbers available.

I was not questioning your 4 minutes scheduled, I was just stating that in practice they may not reach that, if there are any delays en-route (and that will happen ocasionally). Out of a 4-minute turn-around even a 1-minute late arrival will cut the time available for charging significantly.

If it was up to me, I wouldn't select a route that has 2 drivers, to ensure it keeps to time by enabling very quick turn-arounds as the route using the fast-charge system used by the 230s, or at least not without some intervention to ensure the battery stays sufficiently charged even if the turn-around time drops. Otherwise you risk delays leading to insufficient charging leading to more delays.

Slowly, more turbos have moved westwards, which has allowed the 150s to move more Westwards.
Riveria is the name given to the Paignton to Exmouth services.
The platforms on the St Ives branch prevent more than a 5-car 150.
The Greenford Branch operates with a 3-minute turnaround time, so I think 4 minutes should be enough, especially considering Greenford has freight trains on the same branch. St Ives is only double manned when it has a pair of 150s; during the off season, St Ives is only a 2-car 150 with one driver.

 

[RPI]

Okehampton is getting two 3 car 175 which frees up 2 150s for Cornwall. Barnstaple which has a big capacity problem could get three 3 cars coupled with 3 two car units to give 5 car sets. Or they could use 6 two car units for the three diagrams giving 4 car sets. Whatever works best
Newquay could be the big winner with a one hour service instead of two hours should increase the passenger numbers where two car 150s are not enough. So Paignton-Exmouth might need more turbos to free up 150s unless 230s are sent into Cornwall. With the 158s gone there is space at Exeter for 175s to stable overnight as do some of the turbos.

Barnstaple doesn't have "big capacity problem", it has a capacity issue on one train in the morning, using multi 175's for that one train is also probably more hassle than it's worth with the short platforms, the train in question is very busy, but as long as it's a three car it doesn't get into the realms of leaving people behind, just rammed after Crediton.

There is talk of making it a 5 car 175, with everyone from Barny loaded into the rear set at Barny, leaving the front set free for the other stations, in reality, that's just going to be a huge faff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2025 ==

Okehampton is getting two 3 car 175 which frees up 2 150s for Cornwall. Barnstaple which has a big capacity problem could get three 3 cars coupled with 3 two car units to give 5 car sets. Or they could use 6 two car units for the three diagrams giving 4 car sets. Whatever works best
Newquay could be the big winner with a one hour service instead of two hours should increase the passenger numbers where two car 150s are not enough. So Paignton-Exmouth might need more turbos to free up 150s unless 230s are sent into Cornwall. With the 158s gone there is space at Exeter for 175s to stable overnight as do some of the turbos.

I believe there is going to be one less turbo diagram in Devon, there is also now a 4 car 150 used on the Barny line most days, this splits in the evening with 2 going on to Axminster and the other set goes back to either Okie or Barny. This currently sees a 158 on the Exmouth Paignton circuit which is a pain in the derrière.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There is talk of making it a 5 car 175, with everyone from Barny loaded into the rear set at Barny, leaving the front set free for the other stations, in reality, that's just going to be a huge faff.

Herding students into the correct coaches will be a huge faff. Then if only the rear set is opened at Barnstaple you can guarantee there will be somebody for a short platform who forgets to transfer to the front at Umberleigh!