Class 175 future speculation

[skyhigh]

Northern - Too many fleets already, shame as you could give the maintenance problem back to Alstom at Crofton.

Is there capacity at Crofton? I'm fairly sure there's not.

 

[3RDGEN]

I believe Neptune has said that Northern aren’t planning on Northern taking on 158s cascaded from other TOCs, which is a shame as I’d rather see a bunch of those in the North East rather in the interim than the 175s or running the 156s into the ground for another 7 years

A few 158's to replace the 155's would remove a sub fleet and the issues that creates and also helps pathing the Hull - York services. Some for the North East to replace their local 156's would improve the passenger service but is it worth the cost/trouble of doing it?

Do you allow 27 newer trains go to scrap or cascade to start second generation replacement to buy sometime for when the next generation units are delivered late / don't work or the orders get cut when the money runs out?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2023 ==

Is there capacity at Crofton? I'm fairly sure there's not.

Not at present, would need a big investment so another reason it will not happen.

 

[Anvil1984]

A few 158's to replace the 155's would remove a sub fleet and the issues that creates and also helps pathing the Hull - York services. Some for the North East to replace their local 156's would improve the passenger service but is it worth the cost/trouble of doing it?

Do you allow 27 newer trains go to scrap or cascade to start second generation replacement to buy sometime for when the next generation units are delivered late / don't work or the orders get cut when the money runs out?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2023 ==


Not at present, would need a big investment so another reason it will not happen.

To be honest I don’t have the financials behind it so can’t answer the first part, it’s just a preference over what I drive.
The issue is that Northern need a lot more than 27 units so taking on the 175s just doesn’t make sense. However you are right, Northern’s current plans which we don’t know too much about (we have no clue internally except those at the top) aren’t guaranteed to happen on time or at all

 

[CAF397]

TPE aren’t replacing the LHCS.

Has the lease (due to end Feb 2024?) been extended?

 

[43102EMR]

Has the lease (due to end Feb 2024?) been extended?

I can’t remember which magazine, but an interview with TPE’s MD (yes this is post takeover) said they aren’t being replaced.

One for a different thread.

 

[craigybagel]

Why not? There is method of working in place for DOO at Chiltern which works just fine. There would be no requirement to fit external cameras and in-cab monitors to the 175s.

You can't see platform monitors from the drivers seat on a 175, the seat is too far forward from the window.

 

[Russel]

I assume we're no closer to knowing the fate of the 175 fleet after TfW?

 

[craigybagel]

I assume we're no closer to knowing the fate of the 175 fleet after TfW?

As I said on the 175 shortages thread:

At the moment nobody who knows for certain is in a position to say so publicly on social media, so until there's an official announcement I'd take anything with a pinch of salt.

 

[12LDA28C]

If you exclude Scotrail who say they don't want anymore secondhand trains

Too bad, they'll be getting 'secondhand trains' to replace the HSTs but that's off topic for this thread

 

[MattRat]

I assume we're no closer to knowing the fate of the 175 fleet after TfW?

The best guess right now is Chiltern to replace the 68s I'd say.

 

[D365]

An aternative which I've mentioned before, to avoid splitting the fleet, would be to send all 175s to Northern and for Northern's 170s to go to Chiltern for conversion to 168s and LHCS replacement. Perhaps the 170 depot at Hull could still be used to maintain some of EMR's 170s?

You certainly have - I’d better start counting my pound coins!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Too bad, they'll be getting 'secondhand trains' to replace the HSTs but that's off topic for this thread

If the rumours are true.

 

[Rhydgaled]

TPE will probably get more Azumas to replace the LHCS.

Point of note, they're WoE IETs that are used by TPE. "Azuma" is a dumb brand produced by Virgin / EC Trains.

Surely TPE operate neither IETs nor Azumas, the 802s with TPE are 'Nova 1s'.

GWR - Cardiff to Portsmouth and associated services, far more suitable than 16x on that route and again an internal cascade see's 150 replacement / extra capacity.

Given that Northern have been ruled out, GWR does seem like a sensible alternative home for the 175s with GWR losing the Castle HSTs. Yes, they are not running the planned extras to Bristol (via Bristol Parkway) which were envisaged when the IEP and IET fleets were ordered, so there were some spare 800s, but GWR have also extended more services to Carmarthen which I understood was using those spare Bristol units.

Problem is the cost of training / route clearance / leasing charges and operating costs. The big question is do the DfT want cascades like these with the costs involved

Indeed it is; the 175s also are hamstrung by not being able to make use of Sprinter differentials, but the big question is the financial one. There have been reports that TfW are unable to extend the lease on the 175s, which on the one hand suggests that the owners already have a new home lined up for them, but that could equally mean that TfW simply do not have any spare cash to extend the lease.

 

[Energy]

Given that Northern have been ruled out, GWR does seem like a sensible alternative home for the 175s with GWR losing the Castle HSTs. Yes, they are not running the planned extras to Bristol (via Bristol Parkway) which were envisaged when the IEP and IET fleets were ordered, so there were some spare 800s, but GWR have also extended more services to Carmarthen which I understood was using those spare Bristol units.

I'm sure GWR management would love the 175s, just as they did with the 180s!

 

[Anonymous10]

I'm sure GWR management would love the 175s, just as they did with the 180s!

To be fair if maintained properly the 175s are great trains, they just haven't been recently.

 

[m79900]

To be fair if maintained properly the 175s are great trains, they just haven't been recently.

And First Group are going to do a much better job aren't they!

 

[Anonymous10]

And First Group are going to do a much better job aren't they!

Well I never said they would necessarily maintane them brilliantly, my point was that if taken care of there's nothing inherently wrong with them.

 

[Nym]

Surely TPE operate neither IETs nor Azumas, the 802s with TPE are 'Nova 1s'.

They are Intercity Express Trains. The same as every other IET delivered in the UK.
The 802s were not IEPs delivered under the Intercity Express Programme, but are still Intercity Express Trains.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

They are Intercity Express Trains. The same as every other IET delivered in the UK.
The 802s were not IEPs delivered under the Intercity Express Programme, but are still Intercity Express Trains.

They are not Intercity Express Trains (capitalised) or IET, those are specifically GWRs.
However they can be intercity express trains (not capitalised), as that is a description of their use, but would include more than just Hitachi's 80x+810 trains.

 

[Neptune]

They are all Hitachi AT300 trains adorned with brand names depending on the company that operates them.

I’m not sure why some people find that difficult to understand.

 

[MattRat]

They are all Hitachi AT300 trains adorned with brand names depending on the company that operates them.

I’m not sure why some people find that difficult to understand.

Because not everyone is train nerds. I use words interchangeably when talking to non train people. They know what you mean, even if it isn't accurate.

And yes, I know it's the rail forum, but a name doesn't mean everyone here will be an expert on railways.

 

[Neptune]

Because not everyone is train nerds. I use words interchangeably when talking to non train people. They know what you mean, even if it isn't accurate.

And yes, I know it's the rail forum, but a name doesn't mean everyone here will be an expert on railways.

Only pointing out what has been pointed out on many threads in the past. It’s not exactly difficult for said enthusiasts on here to google it either as they generally have more clues on individual train types than the lay public.

 

[MattRat]

Only pointing out what has been pointed out on many threads in the past. It’s not exactly difficult for said enthusiasts on here to google it either as they generally have more clues on individual train types than the lay public.

But I wouldn't call everyone here enthusiasts. People are here simply to discuss rail matters, even if that involves things like removing railways. And why would such people then care about the nuances of rolling stock?

 

[Philip]

Seriously? Which EMR 170’s go near Hull and why are you loading capacity issues back onto Neville Hill as a result.

You really need to digest what is explained to you about how Northern’s fleet operations run before making ridiculous repeated arguments and now ridiculous ideas about maintaining someone else’s units that go nowhere near our depot whilst loading issues onto another of our depots, just to get your beloved 175’s to Northern.

The idea about EMR 170s being maintained at the Hull depot would be so that the staff at the depot wouldn't need training on a different unit type and could continue maintaining 170s. However, even if Hull 170 depot became a 158 depot, it would still be logical to send the Northern 170s to Chiltern for conversion to 168s, which could in turn replace the LHCS without Chiltern having to take on a new train type. This would then be an opportunity for 175s to go to Northern to make up for the loss of 170s.

Nothing appears to be signed and sealed yet, so until we hear an official announcement for the future use of 175s, I think Northern remain a possible option - even if the company bigwigs are currently saying there are no plans to take them on. The DfT might have other ideas.

 

[liamf656]

The idea about EMR 170s being maintained at the Hull depot would be so that the staff at the depot wouldn't need training on a different unit type and could continue maintaining 170s.

EMR don’t serve anywhere near Hull so how would you expect them to get to/from there!?

Nothing appears to be signed and sealed yet, so until we hear an official announcement for the future use of 175s, I think Northern remain a possible option - even if the company big wigs are currently saying there are no plans to take them on. The DfT might have other ideas.

Nothing appears to be signed and sealed yet, so until we hear an official announcement, it’s probably best to calm down with the crazy ideas that are obviously not going to happen, such as 175s going to Northern, or EMR maintaining their trains way off the network.

 

[Philip]

EMR don’t serve anywhere near Hull so how would you expect them to get to/from there!?

EMR serve Cleethorpes which isn't that far from Hull.

Nothing appears to be signed and sealed yet, so until we hear an official announcement, it’s probably best to calm down with the crazy ideas that are obviously not going to happen, such as 175s going to Northern, or EMR maintaining their trains way off the network.

It isn't a crazy idea - Northern have lots of old diesel stock which needs replacing. There may well be a plan to replace them with new units for the long term, but this won't be for a good few years so there's a case for more modern and less polluting 175s replacing the 155s and 156s until the new stock arrives. And the point I have made about Northern 170s to Chiltern for 168 conversion is also logical, as then Chiltern could have one train type to operate all the mainline services.

 

[skyhigh]

It isn't a crazy idea

In your opinion.

Wonder what @Neptune would say...

 

[Anvil1984]

EMR serve Cleethorpes which isn't that far from Hull.

Maybe not as the crow flies but over 70 miles by train so it is way too far before the multiple other reasons

 

[craigybagel]

EMR serve Cleethorpes which isn't that far from Hull.

Barton on Humber is even closer. I think you'll find that big blue line on the map does complicate things however.

By rail, Hull and Cleethorpes are 76 miles apart

Nothing appears to be signed and sealed yet, so until we hear an official announcement for the future use of 175s, I think Northern remain a possible option - even if the company bigwigs are currently saying there are no plans to take them on. The DfT might have other ideas.

Keep telling yourself that.....

 

[Energy]

Nothing appears to be signed and sealed yet, so until we hear an official announcement for the future use of 175s, I think Northern remain a possible option - even if the company bigwigs are currently saying there are no plans to take them on. The DfT might have other ideas.

The DfT aim to run train services as well as possible within the budget set by the treasury, not to keep the 175s in work.

Northern have plans for new rolling stock to replace sprinters, why would the DfT spend cash on training staff, sorting maintanence and leasing the 175s just for them to be replaced a few years later?