Class 175 future speculation

[Mitchell Hurd]

Obviously it's been said that 175s may go to Chiltern. Personally this does make sense to me as they can run the express services out of Marylebone to Birmingham and Stourbridge, and either run the EWR services or cascade some 168s onto it. This does save leasing 196s from WMR to cover EWR.

That would be the better idea. I know I'm probably going to get bitten on this bit but what if the 175's got sent to Northern and got cascaded to longer routes displacing 195's to replace the 170's?

It's a pain that Northern have 170's when really 20 more 195's should have been introduced instead.

175 - 195 - 170 (to Chiltern) would be easier for Chiltern!

 

[D365]

Do any depots in the Midlands or South have capacity for the full 175 fleet, without letting other units go?

Why the desperation to rehouse these units on behalf of a private firm?

 

[3RDGEN]

Chiltern is one of the better fits as they can replace the MKIII's and cascade the 168's to replace most of the 165's, if the full 175 fleet is taken on. The 165's can either be scrapped or sent to GWR to replace their 150's and increase the fleet size if that's cost effective. Upside is younger/better trains for Chiltern/GWR but the problem is the more you cascade the greater the upfront costs in training and route clearance issues etc. and general disruption.

If 175's did go to Chiltern would they also need external camera's fitting for DOO working, can't see it been acceptable to continue working from platform monitors with a "new" fleet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If 175's did go to Chiltern would they also need external camera's fitting for DOO working, can't see it been acceptable to continue working from platform monitors with a "new" fleet?

Not a difficult or expensive fit. The 350/1, /3 and /4 fleet have been fitted despite there being no plans at all to use them.

 

[12LDA28C]

So I think the 175 speculation is fine since it shares the same grasp of reality as the DFT do, and the DFT is allowed to run the railways.

I don't believe the DfT has the faintest idea how to run the railways but that's a subject for a separate discussion

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

If 175's did go to Chiltern would they also need external camera's fitting for DOO working, can't see it been acceptable to continue working from platform monitors with a "new" fleet?

Why not? There is method of working in place for DOO at Chiltern which works just fine. There would be no requirement to fit external cameras and in-cab monitors to the 175s.

 

[IanXC]

More to the point, what services are they suitable for in that area?

I can't really think that there are any services in Northern's North East for which they are *not* suitable?

Much as there are not enough of them to replace the entire Heaton fleet, they surely could replace everything south of Newcastle, with a mixture of 175s/156s on Newcastle/Carlisle, given that, as yet, no current units other than 156s are route cleared down the Cumbrian Coast from Carlisle.

Even that would involve some 3 car 175s replacing 2 car 156 or 158, which is particularly required on the Durham Coast routes.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Northern, as mentioned numerous times, have a 15x replacement plan in place which includes the North East fleet.

Sorry, but I've not been keeping up with everything and cannot recall anything concrete about Northern having a 15x replacement plan. Can you provide a link to any details?

Finally as mentioned elsewhere the 180’s are being replaced by ex AWC 221’s.

Similarly, I've not seen anything about this - indeed the only proposals I can recall for the Avanti Super Voyagers (once they are replaced by Avanti's new class 805 and class 807 units) is speculation on here that XC should get all the Voyagers to cover for the loss of the IC125s (personally, having decided that XC is to be avoided like the plauge if I don't have a reservation due to how busy it is, I think they should get all the Voyagers AND keep their small fleet of IC125s for now until some more electrification is done to free up some 800s for XC from GWR and/or LNER).

My feelings are the 175s will be scrapped, unless a useful home is found

There are several routes/TOCs where the 175s would be useful, and massively beneficial for passengers, including if they stayed with TfW. However, there are other fleets which are already in use with other TOCs (such as XC's IC125 sets) which are also useful and massively beneficial for passengers yet are being withdrawn without replacement. These other fleets, being already in place, are not subject to the challanges of having to hire/train enough crews to run them or to find the capacity to maintain them, so I'm increasingly fearful that the 175s will indeed be scrapped as soon as TfW have enough class 197s and mark 4 sets to run their currently planned timetable. If that does indeed occour, Britain's public transport offering will be poorer as a result.

 

[Topological]

We are told that TfW cannot possibly keep all the 175s on lease until the 197s are ready because they have homes to go to. Would make a mockery of having a public provision if that home is the scrapyard.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Sorry, but I've not been keeping up with everything and cannot recall anything concrete about Northern having a 15x replacement plan. Can you provide a link to any details?

This isn't really "details" but it's something, may possibly be in relation to this as well

The bids for the replacement of Northern’s 15x fleet is quite well advanced (commenced in January) with a surprise leading bidder at the moment. I can’t say anymore than that.

Northern Trains Limited (“Northern”) is reviewing its requirements and strategy for the procurement of new rolling stock, with associated maintenance, servicing and related financing options.​

To help inform technical, financial, procurement and contracting strategies, and to understand potential suppliers’ capability and capacity, Northern is conducting a Market Engagement exercise with a view to formalising its requirements through the publication of Contract Notice and subsequent commencement of a Tender exercise under the Utilities Contract Regulations 2016 (“the Regulations”).

As the first step in this exciting opportunity, Northern intends to host a presentation to all interested train manufacturing and financing organisations via Microsoft Teams in early 2023.

Following the ‘all parties’ presentation, Northern will engage with any party expressing an interest in further participation in the Market Engagement exercise in a 1:1 process, taking the form of a written questionnaire, followed by Teams sessions reviewing questionnaire responses, and discussing potential inputs to Northern’s strategy.

This Market Engagement exercise is entirely independent of any procurement exercise that may or may not be undertaken by Northern, and participation will not influence the outcome of any procurement activity.

Questionnaires and discussions will be ‘in confidence' however, pertinent information may be anonymised to feed into any future procurement exercise if appropriate.

The presentation session will likely be late January/early February 2023; a specific date and time will be confirmed by email as soon as possible to those expressing interest in participation.

 

[XAM2175]

Similarly, I've not seen anything about this - indeed the only proposals I can recall for the Avanti Super Voyagers

Class 221 for Grand Central

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #27 originally in this thread. 221143 is getting an exam and other maintenance work performed. 10 units in total are set to transfer to GC after refresh and rebranding. That is the ROSCO's own information.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Rhydgaled]

This isn't really "details" but it's something, may possibly be in relation to this as well

Thanks for the reply - that is potentially very worrying news depending on whether the plan involves new-builds or cascades and, if new-build, how whether they are bi-modes:

• whether the plan invovles new builds and, if so, how many units
• whether any new builds are EMU, DMU, DEMU, HMU, IPEMU or some multi-mode combination

Class 221 for Grand Central

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #27 originally in this thread. 221143 is getting an exam and other maintenance work performed. 10 units in total are set to transfer to GC after refresh and rebranding. That is the ROSCO's own information.

www.railforums.co.uk

Again, thanks for the link, but ouch - that is bad news for XC (I suppose XC could still take the other ex-Avanti Voyagers, plus the 222s, but with the latter being less-compatible (or even completely incompatible) with Voyagers then wouldn't it have made more sense for Grand Central to have some 222s and XC to have all the Voyagers?). I guess it rules out my earlier suggestion that XC should run Cardiff-Nottingham with 5-car 222s (with first class converted to standard) since, with the IC125s going and 10 Voyagers lost to Grand Central, the remaining 95 class 22x units will all be needed on XC's Voyager routes. That opens the possiblity of using the 175s on Cardiff-Nottingham, I suppose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again, thanks for the link, but ouch - that is bad news for XC (I suppose XC could still take the other ex-Avanti Voyagers, plus the 222s, but with the latter being less-compatible (or even completely incompatible) with Voyagers then wouldn't it have made more sense for Grand Central to have some 222s and XC to have all the Voyagers?). I guess it rules out my earlier suggestion that XC should run Cardiff-Nottingham with 5-car 222s (with first class converted to standard) since, with the IC125s going and 10 Voyagers lost to Grand Central, the remaining 95 class 22x units will all be needed on XC's Voyager routes. That opens the possiblity of using the 175s on Cardiff-Nottingham, I suppose.

It could be good or bad for XC, though the way the Government neglects it probably bad. It could for instance mean a nice new fleet of 80x or FLIRTs instead of old tat. Bet it won't though.

 

[Neptune]

Thanks for the reply - that is potentially very worrying news depending on whether the plan involves new-builds or cascades and, if new-build, how whether they are bi-modes:

• whether the plan invovles new builds and, if so, how many units
• whether any new builds are EMU, DMU, DEMU, HMU, IPEMU or some multi-mode combination

Yes the plan is new builds and the units will involve 25kv plus a self power source. These will eradicate the 15x fleet whilst future proofing for further electrification.

There’s only so much I can say on the matter.

and 10 Voyagers lost to Grand Central,

They aren’t 10 voyagers lost to Grand Central. This implies they were XC’s units and have been removed to GC such as the TPE to Chiltern 170 raid.

They are 10 off lease (or soon to be off lease) Voyagers going to Grand Central. Why would the lessors turn this down in the vain hope XC come in for them.

The remaining 10 221’s at Avanti could replace the 5 XC HST’s preventing loss of seats across the network but again if someone else comes in for them the lessor isn’t going to hang around for XC. They’re running a business and how others run theirs isn’t their problem.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It could be good or bad for XC, though the way the Government neglects it probably bad. It could for instance mean a nice new fleet of 80x or FLIRTs instead of old tat. Bet it won't though.

Anything involving brand-new stock would not deliver by October (which apparently is when the XC IC125s are due off-lease) and therefore is still a bad outcome for XC in my view. Also, I am dead against any more bi-modes being ordered unless they are in the 90-110mph range with unit-end gangways since the 125mph main lines should all be electrified and we already have plenty of bi-mode 80x existant or on-order to cover the stuff like Newquay where a 125mph unit needs to run on beyond the core InterCity network. New-build 9-car class 803s (ie. straight-electric) for LNER and GWR, releasing 800s to XC (re-jigging the formations to provide 8-car units for XC, and ideally using spare class 800 driving cars from that rejig (since there are no diesel engines under those) for the new 803s) should be the medium-term aim but XC needs an interim solution.

Yes the plan is new builds and the units will involve 25kv plus a self power source. These will eradicate the 15x fleet whilst future proofing for further electrification.

Thank goodness for the 25kv capability. As long as ALL new-build units have that potential (so that they can be easily converted to EMUs in future by simply removing the self-power source) that shouldn't be a complete disaster. It seems to be fairly common knowlege on here that I hate the 195s and 197s (or 'Cavity Abominations' as I'm increasingly calling them), but if they could be converted to 331s then there would be places I would be content to see them deployed.

The remaining 10 221’s at Avanti could replace the 5 XC HST’s preventing loss of seats across the network but again if someone else comes in for them the lessor isn’t going to hang around for XC. They’re running a business and how others run theirs isn’t their problem.

XC need more stock now, even with the IC125s. I'm fairly sure my brother had to stand / sit on the floor of a fully-booked Voyager from Bristol Parkway to Exeter a few weeks back. You are correct that how others run their businesses isn’t their problem to solve, but it does create (or perpetuate) problems for XC's passengers - the rail industry could do with a friendly/supportive guiding mind to deal with issues such as this.

 

[Whistler40145]

Anything involving brand-new stock would not deliver by October (which apparently is when the XC IC125s are due off-lease) and therefore is still a bad outcome for XC in my view. Also, I am dead against any more bi-modes being ordered unless they are in the 90-110mph range with unit-end gangways since the 125mph main lines should all be electrified and we already have plenty of bi-mode 80x existant or on-order to cover the stuff like Newquay where a 125mph unit needs to run on beyond the core InterCity network. New-build 9-car class 803s (ie. straight-electric) for LNER and GWR, releasing 800s to XC (re-jigging the formations to provide 8-car units for XC, and ideally using spare class 800 driving cars from that rejig (since there are no diesel engines under those) for the new 803s) should be the medium-term aim but XC needs an interim solution.


Thank goodness for the 25kv capability. As long as ALL new-build units have that potential (so that they can be easily converted to EMUs in future by simply removing the self-power source) that shouldn't be a complete disaster. It seems to be fairly common knowlege on here that I hate the 195s and 197s (or 'Cavity Abominations' as I'm increasingly calling them), but if they could be converted to 331s then there would be places I would be content to see them deployed.


XC need more stock now, even with the IC125s. I'm fairly sure my brother had to stand / sit on the floor of a fully-booked Voyager from Bristol Parkway to Exeter a few weeks back. You are correct that how others run their businesses isn’t their problem to solve, but it does create (or perpetuate) problems for XC's passengers - the rail industry could do with a friendly/supportive guiding mind to deal with issues such as this.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 195s

 

[XAM2175]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 195s

No, but that poster is (reasonably enough) aggrieved that they don't even have a bare-minimum passive provision for conversion to bi-mode or electric-only operation in the future.

I can understand why it didn't happen with the 195s, and why it hasn't happened on 196s and 197s, and I'm nowhere near as vocal about it, but I do share the disappointment that it sets us up for either running them under wires for years or binning them off early while there's still life left in the bodies.

 

[IanXC]

No, but that poster is (reasonably enough) aggrieved that they don't even have a bare-minimum passive provision for conversion to bi-mode or electric-only operation in the future.

I can understand why it didn't happen with the 195s, and why it hasn't happened on 196s and 197s, and I'm nowhere near as vocal about it, but I do share the disappointment that it sets us up for either running them under wires for years or binning them off early while there's still life left in the bodies.

I tend to think that the existence of stock such as 195/196/197 means we should really be avoiding hydrogen/battery/bionic duckweed between now and 2050. Presumably in 10 years from now we will have a proper idea of what self powered is going to mean, very long term. In the meantime we have a fleet of diesel units we wouldn't have got if the DfT had thought about the very long term questions now.

 

[stevieinselby]

Thank goodness for the 25kv capability. As long as ALL new-build units have that potential (so that they can be easily converted to EMUs in future by simply removing the self-power source) that shouldn't be a complete disaster. It seems to be fairly common knowlege on here that I hate the 195s and 197s (or 'Cavity Abominations' as I'm increasingly calling them), but if they could be converted to 331s then there would be places I would be content to see them deployed.

As the 195/6/7 family are all DMMU and not DEMU, I don't think it would be a simple process to convert them to electric units, because the whole drivetrain would need to be changed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the 195/6/7 family are all DMMU and not DEMU, I don't think it would be a simple process to convert them to electric units, because the whole drivetrain would need to be changed.

Yes.

It's unlikely they'd be converted to EMU, more likely they'd continue as biodiesel DMUs on branch lines when all other DMUs have long gone.

 

[tomuk]

As the 195/6/7 family are all DMMU and not DEMU, I don't think it would be a simple process to convert them to electric units, because the whole drivetrain would need to be changed.

It isn't just the drivetrain the control systems and auxiliaries are 24v based rather than the 110/90v of most other EMUs.

 

[12LDA28C]

I tend to think that the existence of stock such as 195/196/197 means we should really be avoiding hydrogen/battery/bionic duckweed between now and 2050. Presumably in 10 years from now we will have a proper idea of what self powered is going to mean, very long term. In the meantime we have a fleet of diesel units we wouldn't have got if the DfT had thought about the very long term questions now.

I believe hydrogen has pretty much been binned as a potential method of propulsion nowadays due to the storage capacity required both on-train and off-train with safety concerns raised over storage facilities and their proximity to residential areas.

 

[Fletcj10]

Just a thought…

If Chiltern are struggling for parts with it’s 165 fleet meaning they are looking to take the 175s to replace them

Could GWR then take the 165s from Chiltern (i’ve not heard they are struggling with parts like Chiltern)

If GWR was to take them could they then not replace ageing Sprinter Stock (going off the basis the 165s from Chiltern are okay & GWR isn’t struggling with parts) on either Devon services or even West of England services and with all the sprinter stock going off lease (except 158s)

Could the 158s then go northern to replace their Sprinter stock?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Could the 158s then go northern to replace their Sprinter stock?

There's certainly not enough of them to replace all the Sprinters, especially since the 158s are Sprinters themselves.
GWR have 5 3 car and 13 2 car 158s.

Only fleets with that kinda numbers are the 6 150/0s and the 7 155s.

 

[Fletcj10]

There's certainly not enough of them to replace all the Sprinters, especially since the 158s are Sprinters themselves.
GWR have 5 3 car and 13 2 car 158s.

Only fleets with that kinda numbers are the 6 150/0s and the 7 155s.

Right okay well that’s even better then 150s and 155!

 

[Neptune]

Right okay well that’s even better than 150s and 155!

Not at all better. The 6 x 150/0’s work specific services which only they are suitable for within the fleet (Penistone line). What you suggest will reduce capacity on that route.

In any case (as I seem to be repeating a lot) as it stands 15x replacement at Northern is in hand and doesn’t involve any fleets that are currently in service. Happily we have plans which don’t involve other people’s scrap.

 

[D365]

Happily we have plans which don’t involve other people’s scrap.

You mean to say you're not bringing Class 442s back from the dead?!

 

[Neptune]

You mean to say you're not bringing Class 442s back from the dead?!

Sorry. I’m sure they’d be perfect for the S&C hauled by 88’s to take full advantage of the 26 miles from Leeds - Skipton.

 

[Iskra]

Not at all better. The 6 x 150/0’s work specific services which only they are suitable for within the fleet (Penistone line). What you suggest will reduce capacity on that route.

In any case (as I seem to be repeating a lot) as it stands 15x replacement at Northern is in hand and doesn’t involve any fleets that are currently in service. Happily we have plans which don’t involve other people’s scrap.

Can you kindly elaborate?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==

You mean to say you're not bringing Class 442s back from the dead?!

A fleet of Super Parry People Movers, I reckon.

 

[Neptune]

Can you kindly elaborate?

I’ve been through it in this thread and others before. I can only say so much but Northern are getting together a business plan to replace the 15x fleet by 2030 and have got the expressions of interest in
from manufacturers of bi-mode units. That’s all I can say at this time.

They are just for the 15x replacement so no speculating on replacing 323’s (that plan is still going ahead for 17 WMT units to replace the 319’s) or 333’s. 175’s aren’t coming nor are anyone else’s 158’s as it stands.

Yes things can change but that is the current status quo and any speculation to the contrary is totally futile.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I’ve been through it in this thread and others before. I can only say so much but Northern are getting together a business plan to replace the 15x fleet by 2030 and have got the expressions of interest in
from manufacturers of bi-mode units. That’s all I can say at this time.

They are just for the 15x replacement so no speculating on replacing 323’s (that plan is still going ahead for 17 WMT units to replace the 319’s) or 333’s. 175’s aren’t coming nor are anyone else’s 158’s as it stands.

Yes things can change but that is the current status quo and any speculation to the contrary is totally futile.

I read their question as on the 150/0s being particularly useful for the Penistone line.