Class 172 Production Progress

[IanPooleTrains]

That sounds bloody amazing! Almost sounds like a voyager

 

[jon0844]

What's the bit flapping around by the rear set of doors on the middle coach? See, it IS falling apart already!!

 

[fgwrich]

So did Valenta HSTs, it's the turbo you know!!!!!!

What is important to most is:

Are they nice to travel on in the rush hour(S) ?

From the 2 experiences ive have of them in LOROLS Rush Hour - Are they good to travel on in Rush Hour? Nope...

Something else was pointed out to me recently too - seeing as there's very little in the form of object deflection other than the voyager type object deflector - it’ll be interesting to see how these 'things' cope when one of the lovely locals pushes either a shopping trolley or bin onto the line! Crunch me thinks!

As for how it sounds - Absolutely AWFULL! It certainly will be interesting to see how these Bombarby 172's cope over the next few months - 1 unit a week sounds incredibly ambitious - and considering Bombardiers recent fleet builds - ive got a rather strong feeling with these 172s that it’ll show - either internally, externally or in reliability – the lack of rubbish bins (0) has resulted in left over rubbish either strewn over the floors in peek hours and in some cases staining the panels of LOROLS 172s…

Will the 172& 378s become the straws that breaks the camels back for Bombarby & Future orders? Or will Bombardier be able to re-kindle what they once had – back in the boom era…the era of those Turdostars & rancid Electrostars? Will we be seeing more and more items of rolling stock produced by companies like Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles / CAF or Mitsui / ROTEM ? Or even rolling stock produced by this Anglo Chinese company? The not so successful in Ireland CSR? More EMU’s Produced by Siemens? Who knows, but interesting times await! :roll:

 

[anthony263]

Will the 172& 378s become the straws that breaks the camels back for Bombarby & Future orders? Or will Bombardier be able to re-kindle what they once had – back in the boom era…the era of those Turdostars & rancid Electrostars? Will we be seeing more and more items of rolling stock produced by companies like Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles / CAF or Mitsui / ROTEM ? Or even rolling stock produced by this Anglo Chinese company? The not so successful in Ireland CSRE? More EMU’s Produced by Siemens? Who knows, but interesting times await! :roll:

I certainly would hope that the lastest batch of turbostars/electrostars prove to be more reliable than the previous models for london overground etc.

It was a shame and i think a bit of bad luck about the reliability of the electrostars for first capital connect & london overground when you consider how reliable the class 357's are. Althoug i think it could be because bombardier were rushing a bit to get the units completed and through testing etc

 

[Voyager 2093]

I still cannot wait to see the Chiltern ones.

 

[fgwrich]

I still cannot wait to see the Chiltern ones.

I doubt they'll be much change in design - no doubt appearing exactly the same as a 168, But with a worse underframe/bogies and the larger side mounted exhaust manifolds...

Speaking of Chilterns 172s - I hear Bombarby are trying to push those into the 172 production line too - Could this end up as another Case of too much to quickly?

The problem with Bombardier, is not only do they now seem content with building rolling stock to a price - resulting in the feeling of cheapness - but also by not pre-testing various components before railway use or cutting down on the numbers of suppliers – examples include the rather unreliable 378s CCTV system – built by a Canadian firm with no previous railway experience – Oh look, its failed – whole train out of service…The Fiasco with the 172s has cost derby dearly, the problems with the 377 construction for Southern/FCC when one of the interior panel suppliers went under, then the following problems that resulted after that…Whatever happened to in house engineering & manufacturing eh?!

As said in my post above, it’ll be interesting to see how Bombarby cope over the next few years – As for Crossrail & Thameslink, if Derby does take the contract – I can see it out of pity, otherwise could we see other manufacturers enter the Uk market? Tokyu Car Corp & Mitsui of Japan have a fairly good record at suburban Dart Units for Dublin, CAF have yet to make a full scale return to the UK Market – though they were in the shortlist for the LUL / TFL Piccadilly line fleet replacement program…Siemens have a good enough track record for EMUs…

Incidentally, and going back onto the 172s – Did anyone travel on one of LOROLs during the snow & icy weather recently – just interested to know how they coped with icy rails too! Rain seems to have a fair amount of affect on these units – increased slipping & longer braking distances – something far far less noticeable on the former 150s – which incidentally its seems the staff would rather have back!

 

[Pumbaa]

Speaking of Chilterns 172s - I hear Bombarby are trying to push those into the 172 production line too - Could this end up as another Case of too much to quickly?
!

They're already on - the 4 /2s for Chiltern will be with them fairly quickly. Unlike the LM ones, they don't need to be thoroughly tested, as they're a follow-on from the LO /1s. As far as I can tell, they're being spun round Derby test track then shipped straight to Wembley without going via Old Dalby.

 

[Bastiaan]

A small correction: The LO ones are 172/0s and the Chiltern ones will be 172/1s.

 

[DjU]

Siemens have a good enough track record for EMUs…

Because the introduction of the 380's has gone swimmingly hasn't it..

 

[NXEA!]

Because the introduction of the 380's has gone swimmingly hasn't it..

That's been just about the only class that have experienced introductory problems. The 350/1's, 350/2's both classes of 360, 444, and 450 have been reliable from the outset and have been introduced without problems and so therefore have a good trackrecord compared to other stock especially when compared with stock such as the 377/5's (even though it wasn't entirely Bombardiers fault having to rush them into service) and the 172's. Don't forget the 185's either; generally, Siemens provide a smooth introduction to service through the quality of their product.

 

[starrymarkb]

Because the introduction of the 380's has gone swimmingly hasn't it..

So far it's better then the 377/5s which are supposed to be an identical follow of to the Southern 377s (IIRC they are to Southern Spec aswell)

The 380 is essentially Desiro 1.5 - much like the 379s are Electrostar 1.2* - it will be interesting to compare those two types.

*if they had the new bogies - I'd have said 1.5

 

[tbtc]

Because the introduction of the 380's has gone swimmingly hasn't it..

Admittedly not, though the weather hasn't helped things. What's made it worse is that the badly managed projects required the 380s to be "plug and play" to release stock for the Bathgate line. Because this hasn't happened, the Bathgate problems have been highlighted. If the 380s were just being introduced to provide additional capacity then we'd not be complaining about them anything like as much.I think the Project Managers are to blame as much as the 380s though

 

[Helvellyn]

Iv'e only been commuting from Kidderminster to Birmingham for the past 27 years so clearly I have limited knowledge on this subject!!!!

When we did get 150's they were 2 car sets cascaded from the east midlands, they replaced car 1st generation stuff mainly (3 car) from Thames valley jobs when they got 165-6 units, we had all sorts of other 1st gen (2 car) "hybrids" too.

Many routes were getting all the new stuff, not our line!!!!!

If Centro rejected Nodding Donkeys fair play to them for standing there ground

The "improvement" to 3 car 150 hybrids came much later!!!!!

Yes we all hate Pacers but not having them does not mean passengers are getting a better deal.

The 172's we are having will have less seats per carriage than the 150's we are losing, so all is not what you think it is guys.

Oh come on! When the Class 150/1s moved to Centro services they were just over 5 years old. They were cascaded from the East Midlands when the Class 156s, and later 158s came on the scene - units better suited for the outer-suburban/long distance work that the the 150/1s were being used on. Centro then had them refurbished, with new seating - something the Class 150/1s with GMPTE never got until privatisation.

As to the First Generation stuff you had, that was a mix of 115/116/117 and 127 centre cars. It certainly wasn't stuff cascaded from the Thames Valley when the 165/166 units came online, as any 117 cascades happened long before that and were probably better than the 116 units. Likewise, the 115s cascaded from the Chiltern services were due to cutbacks in service levels there rendering some stock surplus.

When Centro got the 150/1s they were a good, modern unit. There was nothing else out there better for suburban services. Unless Centro was suddenly going to try and acquire some brand new Turbo units in the early 1990s? Where they've probably suffered is that they haven't really been refurbished during the privatisation era. Heavily facelifted perhaps, but they still have the Ashbourne seating fitted during the original Centro refurbishment - many sprinter types (and even Pacers) got new seats during privatisation refurbishments. A Southern or SWT 455-style refurbishment of the Centro 150s would have left the majority of commuters thinking they were getting new units.

The railways have always relied on the cascading of stock, and I doubt that will ever change. Given a good refurbishment there is nothing wrong with that. It's the same in the bus industry - many of the urban high frequency routes get the new buses - the older buses get cascaded to the school service sand the much less frequent rural services. But refurbished, they still do the job.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Will the 172& 378s become the straws that breaks the camels back for Bombarby & Future orders? Or will Bombardier be able to re-kindle what they once had – back in the boom era…the era of those Turdostars & rancid Electrostars? Will we be seeing more and more items of rolling stock produced by companies like Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles / CAF or Mitsui / ROTEM ? Or even rolling stock produced by this Anglo Chinese company? The not so successful in Ireland CSR? More EMU’s Produced by Siemens? Who knows, but interesting times await! :roll:

Neither CSR nor CSRE has participated in the Irish market. If that means not so successful, then it's true.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Oh come on! When the Class 150/1s moved to Centro services they were just over 5 years old. They were cascaded from the East Midlands when the Class 156s, and later 158s came on the scene - units better suited for the outer-suburban/long distance work that the the 150/1s were being used on. Centro then had them refurbished, with new seating - something the Class 150/1s with GMPTE never got until privatisation.
Correct
As to the First Generation stuff you had, that was a mix of 115/116/117 and 127 centre cars. It certainly wasn't stuff cascaded from the Thames Valley when the 165/166 units came online, as any 117 cascades happened long before that and were probably better than the 116 units. Likewise, the 115s cascaded from the Chiltern services were due to cutbacks in service levels there rendering some stock surplus.
I'll not argue about classes, but we did get other people's cast offs
When Centro got the 150/1s they were a good, modern unit. There was nothing else out there better for suburban services. Unless Centro was suddenly going to try and acquire some brand new Turbo units in the early 1990s? Where they've probably suffered is that they haven't really been refurbished during the privatisation era. Heavily facelifted perhaps, but they still have the Ashbourne seating fitted during the original Centro refurbishment - many sprinter types (and even Pacers) got new seats during privatisation refurbishments. A Southern or SWT 455-style refurbishment of the Centro 150s would have left the majority of commuters thinking they were getting new units.
They did not meet the capacity requirements of the time and even with extras provided since still do not
The railways have always relied on the cascading of stock, and I doubt that will ever change. Given a good refurbishment there is nothing wrong with that. It's the same in the bus industry - many of the urban high frequency routes get the new buses - the older buses get cascaded to the school service sand the much less frequent rural services. But refurbished, they still do the job.

I started this thread so we could discuss the potential improvements to all of the dmu routes across the network, what's happened to this thread is "lets nick all LM's units and leave them with nothing" A new thread perhaps?

LM routes need more seats as well as the north and the south west and......

 

[MCR247]

Are they really that busy?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Yes we have our share of sardine specials just like the rest of the network and when they turn up short formed (not just one service but two or three on the trot) it's worse!!
Some are all the time, get a short formed or two in front you can forget it for getting home for an hour!!!!

 

[317 forever]

I have been considering going to Birmingham for Easter if the London Midland class 172s are in service by then. I gather it is unlikely that many if any will be in service by then though.

 

[Pumbaa]

This first unit is due Tyseley second week of Feb. So you should be able to see a few in Easter if you hang around for the fourth train or such!

 

[MCR247]

I have been considering going to Birmingham for Easter if the London Midland class 172s are in service by then. I gather it is unlikely that many if any will be in service by then though.

Really doubt it would be worth it

 

[DavidSmith]

It sounds amazing!!

Sadly I cannot seem to muster the same enthusiasm for the potential of having a cement mixer pass by my booking office every 10 mins.

 

[fgwrich]

Sadly I cannot seem to muster the same enthusiasm for the potential of having a cement mixer pass by my booking office every 10 mins.

Good point! It does have that certain Cement Mixer sound to it!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Does that mean they are going to get nicknamed "Dizzies"?

 

[fgwrich]

Does that mean they are going to get nicknamed "Dizzies"?

Add a corridor connection and repaint it green - and youve got the LM Vesrsion...

Heres the London Overground version then! Just needs the blue & white section added too...Well, the bogies are the simular!

Hmm - Bob - think he's more of a Ken type character than Boris

As far as im concerned then, Dizzies it is!

 

[swt_passenger]

I started this thread so we could discuss the potential improvements to all of the dmu routes across the network...

Really? I thought from the subject it was about Class 172 production progress?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Really? I thought from the subject it was about Class 172 production progress?

Please read item 1 on this thread!

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

A bit off-topic, but what's stopping someone like Northern ordering some of these?

 

[swt_passenger]

Please read item 1 on this thread!

I did, and being pedantic the relevant part of the post is this:

"can any of you out there provide progress info on the Class 172 build situation?"

The first part of your post is just setting the scene...

 

[MCR247]

A bit off-topic, but what's stopping someone like Northern ordering some of these?

It would be pointless for Northern to pay for some brand new units if they are probably not going to get to use them wouldn't it?

 

[tbtc]

A bit off-topic, but what's stopping someone like Northern ordering some of these?

Nothing (apart from the DFT who haven't allowed some previous orders, e.g. middle coaches for Voyagers).

But Northern only have another three years, so by the time you've tendered for new stock, gone through the process, got them built, trained staff on them (meaning shifts gettting rejigged etc), tested them sufficiently beforehand, they'll only have a few weeks left before the next franchise. Not impossible, but it'd mean a lot of "pain" for little "gain" to Serco/Ned.

I'd hope that the next holders of the Northern franchise start the tendering/ bidding process when the winning bid is confirmed - and not a few months/ years into the franchise.