Class 172 Production Progress

[T163R]

That's weird...the Class 172 for London Midland is a diesel Class 378 !
Looks cool in the London Midland livery !

 

[Old Hill Bank]

You've got to be kidding? As starrymarkb says, Centro received it's very own dedicated fleet of 150/1s for the Snow Hill lines in the late 80s, with the more usual fare of Pacers that many other PTEs further north were lumbered with refused as not being suitable. These form the majority of the Snow Hill lines' trains, and are available in large enough quantities for 16 three carriage trains to have been formed up from two carriage units, which is a luxury many other operators of 150s cannot afford.

Iv'e only been commuting from Kidderminster to Birmingham for the past 27 years so clearly I have limited knowledge on this subject!!!!

When we did get 150's they were 2 car sets cascaded from the east midlands, they replaced car 1st generation stuff mainly (3 car) from Thames valley jobs when they got 165-6 units, we had all sorts of other 1st gen (2 car) "hybrids" too.

Many routes were getting all the new stuff, not our line!!!!!

If Centro rejected Nodding Donkeys fair play to them for standing there ground

The "improvement" to 3 car 150 hybrids came much later!!!!!

Yes we all hate Pacers but not having them does not mean passengers are getting a better deal.

The 172's we are having will have less seats per carriage than the 150's we are losing, so all is not what you think it is guys.

 

[tbtc]

Yes we all hate Pacers but not having them does not mean passengers are getting a better deal

By having something better than Pacers (150s), I think its pretty obvious you are getting a better deal. By replacing them with brand new three coach 172s (whilst Manchester/ Leeds/ Bristol/ Cardiff/ Newcastle etc struggle with Pacers, with no replacement in sight) I think it's pretty obvious you are getting a better deal.

Trouble is, people with good public transport tend to complain at least as much, if not more than those with a shoddy one

 

[MCR247]

That's weird...the Class 172 for London Midland is a diesel Class 378 !
Looks cool in the London Midland livery !

With a corridor connection

 

[Old Hill Bank]

tbtc

I do not contest other lines get a bad deal, just to correct some misconceptions with respect to the Snow Hill service by another poster!

I do travel around the network as part of my job as well as for "pleasure" and know that overcrowding is an issue that affects many. We just seem to have some "Green Eyed Monsters" who see a new train and assume they have a god given right to have it on "There Line"

 

[swt_passenger]

With a corridor connection

Indeed it can only mean that T163R has never seen a SN 377. It's far more like a 377 than anything else around. The 378 has completely different pocketed sliding doors for instance, and as you suggest, no gangway.

 

[T163R]

Indeed it can only mean that T163R has never seen a SN 377. It's far more like a 377 than anything else around. The 378 has completely different pocketed sliding doors for instance, and as you suggest, no gangway.

Well I was just thinking about the front and the lights ...

 

[MCR247]

Really, its a mix between this and this

 

[T163R]

Really, its a mix between this and this

and this

 

[MCR247]

Well the lights, and thats about it really, but i see where your going

 

[T163R]

Well the lights, and thats about it really, but i see where your going

 

[sprinterguy]

Iv'e only been commuting from Kidderminster to Birmingham for the past 27 years so clearly I have limited knowledge on this subject!!!!

When we did get 150's they were 2 car sets cascaded from the east midlands, they replaced car 1st generation stuff mainly (3 car) from Thames valley jobs when they got 165-6 units, we had all sorts of other 1st gen (2 car) "hybrids" too.

Many routes were getting all the new stuff, not our line!!!!!

If Centro rejected Nodding Donkeys fair play to them for standing there ground

The "improvement" to 3 car 150 hybrids came much later!!!!!

Yes we all hate Pacers but not having them does not mean passengers are getting a better deal.

The 172's we are having will have less seats per carriage than the 150's we are losing, so all is not what you think it is guys.

Undoubtedly your knowledge on this subject is far greater than mine, there's no substitute for many years of first hand experience. But in no way do the Snow Hill lines have it bad: The 150s weren't exactly ancient when they came to the West Midlands (I hadn't realised they spent 4 or 5 years in the East Mids first, sorry), and they're still totally adequate today for the services they are operating. They're going to be one of the first Sprinter fleets to be directly replaced with brand new trains (LO and Scotrail have already done similar but on a smaller scale). Also, prior to Sprinterisation, many lines had a hotch-potch of different first gen DMU types in service, not just the Snow Hill lines.

 

[Kneedown]

I have an idea that in TR UK it said the reason they used Mechanical Transmission was because with the stop-start nature of the services they're going to operate they will use less fuel or something along those lines. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it was just an inkling. Just out of interest, wouldn't a mechanical Transmission unit have a higher acceleration?

I'm afraid i don't have the technical expertise to answer that accurately, but i wouldn't have thought much, if any extra fuel would be used. No diesel in this country accelerates faster than a Voyager/Meridian, both of which get off the mark like a leccy and have electric transmission. Of course, if it turns out that a 172 will make your cheeks ripple then i stand to be corrected, but as i pointed out earlier, surely it would show better foresight if all future DMU's were to have electric transmission to enable future conversion to ac power, thus solving the problem of where new electric units are going to come from in the event of more lines being wired, and also overcome the reluctance of ROSCO's to invest in new diesel units. They would know that they are "futureproof" and would get value for money.

 

[WillPS]

Now, if only DEMUs weren't so damn expensive!

 

[Kneedown]

Now, if only DEMUs weren't so damn expensive!

So basically you're saying that the initial cost of the units is more?
The maintenance costs of the unit will be a lot less over the lifetime, but it's the TOC who pays for the maintenance, whereas the ROSCO initially pays for the stock?

If this is the case then it's the old story of initial cost over long term savings and performance.

 

[WillPS]

So basically you're saying that the initial cost of the units is more?
The maintenance costs of the unit will be a lot less over the lifetime, but it's the TOC who pays for the maintenance, whereas the ROSCO initially pays for the stock?

If this is the case then it's the old story of initial cost over long term savings and performance.

Another reason why the ROSCO/'license to print money' system is flawed.

 

[Eng274]

I'm afraid i don't have the technical expertise to answer that accurately, but i wouldn't have thought much, if any extra fuel would be used. No diesel in this country accelerates faster than a Voyager/Meridian, both of which get off the mark like a leccy and have electric transmission. Of course, if it turns out that a 172 will make your cheeks ripple then i stand to be corrected, but as i pointed out earlier, surely it would show better foresight if all future DMU's were to have electric transmission to enable future conversion to ac power, thus solving the problem of where new electric units are going to come from in the event of more lines being wired, and also overcome the reluctance of ROSCO's to invest in new diesel units. They would know that they are "futureproof" and would get value for money.

Hydraulic transmissions have a lower efficiency than mechanical transmissions. I don't know which is the faster option, but I suspect a 172 could probably out-accelerate a 170, especially the 75mph classes.

 

[Kneedown]

Another reason why the ROSCO/'license to print money' system is flawed.

Maybe if agreement could be reached between ROSCO and TOC, in that TOC pays slightly higher leasing charges, but recoups that money in maintenance savings.

Out of interest why is a DEMU more expensive? especially when you consider a straight ac is cheaper?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hydraulic transmissions have a lower efficiency than mechanical transmissions.

But what about electric transmissions?

 

[Eng274]

But what about electric transmissions?

It depends on the efficiency of the alternator and electric traction motor. The motor, if it's of any decent quality, will be easily above 90% efficient. Electric motors are also useful as they produce a constant torque at any RPM, unlike diesel engines.

Electric transmissions are probably more efficient at transmitting power, but it also relies on the engine revving its nuts off to get maximum current (as per DEMUs) and so would probably use more fuel in the long run than a hydraulic/mechanical. A hydraulic behaves similar to a DEMU from standstill, but when the torque converter circuit is engaged, the engine revs drop, as per sprinters, turbostars etc.

 

[WillPS]

Maybe if agreement could be reached between ROSCO and TOC, in that TOC pays slightly higher leasing charges, but recoups that money in maintenance savings.

Out of interest why is a DEMU more expensive? especially when you consider a straight ac is cheaper?

Assuming, at a very basic level, because you'd need both a Diesel engine and all the electric gubbins on top. It's the middle of a Venn diagram...

 

[Pumbaa]

I think the fact that they have built well over 1000 cars from the turbo/electrostar range shows a differant answer. 172 are a new design which is up to modern standards. Yes they will be one or two teething problems but the design is good and it was only a matter of time before some asked for a turbostar with corridor connections.

They are a good design which the customers will like and enjoy them. The customer on the Snow Hill lines see the 150's as dirty, old and expired. 172's will be New, fresh, clean and up to the standard of the 350's.

So the use of the word Sh*te is poor, unguided and in terms of Uk rail un educated.

If anything, the fact that Bombardier UK have had to pull in many industry leaders and experts over the last 12 months to sort out their production lines suggests the opposite. The only reason attributed to the 379s being on time is due to one of these seasoned experts having a contract overseeing their delivery.

Additionally, the fact that subsequent orders before reins were pulled in were for rival products rather than Bombardier (360, 350/1, 185, 333) were for more expensive options based on quality. Subsequent orders from the 2007 relets and tightened purse strings have been for Bombardier products (172) and the choice of 378 was because they were originally being purchased directly by TfL.

Although the comment was half tongue in cheek, I would be very worried when Bombardier fails to secure the Thameslink order and/or Crossrail order from the dire quality of the 172.

 

[DavidSmith]

The 172's we are having will have less seats per carriage than the 150's we are losing, so all is not what you think it is guys.

Actually its a move I agree with. The reasoning is that on the 150s the seats are 3/2 in a row. The middle seat of which no one EVER uses (except for bags). So I have always thought we should just do away with them. So the number of people standing wont increase, they just have more room to stand

 

[Kneedown]

Electric transmissions are probably more efficient at transmitting power, but it also relies on the engine revving its nuts off to get maximum current (as per DEMUs) and so would probably use more fuel in the long run than a hydraulic/mechanical.

But a diesel hydraulic MU also relies on the engine revving it's nuts off all the time until the desired speed is reached, when power is reduced. Much the same as on diesel electrics. When the fluid coupling changes over to the torque converter it's only a momentary dip in revs while oil flows out of one into the other.
The thing is, it takes a hydraulic a lot longer to get up to speed than a diesel electric, so is revving it's nuts off for a lot longer, using more fuel. Also the Voith transmissions need more maintenance, oil etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Assuming, at a very basic level, because you'd need both a Diesel engine and all the electric gubbins on top. It's the middle of a Venn diagram...

What i meant was, why is a diesel electric more expensive than a diesel hydraulic/mechanical.
Yes you need a traction motor or two, but with a hydraulic/mechanical you need troublesome, and probably heavy gearboxes.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

What i meant was, why is a diesel electric more expensive than a diesel hydraulic/mechanical.
Yes you need a traction motor or two, but with a hydraulic/mechanical you need troublesome, and probably heavy gearboxes.

Because you also need a traction converter and a traction control system, probably x 2 (because if you only have one and it fails, you're completely b*****ed. At least with a diesel hydraulic / mechanical, each power pack acts independently, so if you lose an engine / transmission (or even two in the case of a 180), you can get yourself out of trouble and maintain a decent line speed.

 

[Kneedown]

At least with a diesel hydraulic / mechanical, each power pack acts independently, so if you lose an engine / transmission (or even two in the case of a 180), you can get yourself out of trouble and maintain a decent line speed.

Not the case with a Sprinter though. If an engine goes on a two car you'll only get any decent speed if you're going downhill with a tailwind as you're on 50% power. Even on a three car performance is seriously impaired as you've lost a third of available power. The effects decrease with the greater number of functioning engines, but the majority of hydraulic transmissions in this country run around in trains with only 1,2 or 3 coaches.
A Meridian, which has electric transmission, can also lose one or two engines (they frequently do) and still maintain speed.

Another thought i've had regarding my earlier point about the length of time power is applied to get to, and maintain speed, is that on a Sprinter with hydraulic transmission, you generally always have to keep some power on to maintain speed, even when going downhill. I believe this may be due to the transmission itself having a "braking" or "lagging" effect (Someone with the relevant technological nous feel free to correct me!) Whereas on an HST for example, with electric transmission, you can coast with the power off for considerable distances without any significant reduction in speed.

 

[trains2064]

Love or hate the idea of Class 172. They are the first of a new design under new standards for emitions and weight.

All of the 172/0 are in service with some teething problems but a lot of these are down to the TOC.

Chilterns are all in production and should be with them by the end of Febuary.

As for LM's,

172 331 is at Old Dalby,
172 332 is at Bombardier Derby on its test track
172 333 is in the very early stages of construction.

It takes about a week to put together a unit.

LM should see there first in early Feb with a second a week later. Then after a gap of 1 month to allow for crew training the will be delivered a a rate of 1 a week till all 27 are with LM.

 

[MCR247]

Why are the the 172/0s LOs fault?

 

[trains2064]

Why are the the 172/0s LOs fault?

One example. Doors closing on there own whilst the train is in service.

Reason. There is a senser which if not triggered in 30 seconds closes the door. A feature because of air con.

Result. 3 cancellations due to traincrew not being aware. The are others which hopefully CT and LM will learn from. Brief crews and maintence so it doesn't happen to them.

 

[MCR247]

Why did this cause cancellations? hock: I'm sure loads of trains do that!

 

[trains2064]

Why did this cause cancellations? hock: I'm sure loads of trains do that!

I agree but some didn't. Crews that till not that many years ago had 117's then 150's for a while may miss this.