Chiltern now part of Arriva

[1V53]

You wouldn't go to Cardiff on a train from Aber to London even if using the Marches! You'd go via Newport.

As for USP, that's easy: no changes. It's amazing on say 2 hourly Chester to Brum how comparatively few Chester to Cardiff pax there are, despite an easy change at Shrewsbury. The intermediate Cardiff services have a lot of through traffic.

 

[Invincibles]

Is it wrong to think it is funny that people are not spotting the obvious here?

While all being owned by the same people does increase the case for direct trains it is not the same thing as the route being operated by one TOC and the same problems of fitting the extra service in still exist.

If the 158 was refurbished well then it would be fine for the journey time, but I am still not convinced that London - Aberystwyth is necessary.

The other service would increase the benefit of electrification on branches from the GWML or would be a good case for bi-mode.

 

[merlodlliw]

With all due respect, Aberystwyth to London is not going to happen with ATW.they learned the lesson when they offered the the ORR a business plan
that was so fudged it was unbelievable.

1.It is an open access service,ATW would not be allowed to use any franchise
stock, ATW seemed to forget this. Not one penny is allowed to be used on open access that is paid for franchise use.

2.The plan had a driver,guard,fitter,steward on each trip, that is four staff for a two coach DMU 158, an higher staffing ratio than W/S ever had.

3.The plan was only ever dreamed up as a spoiler to W/S, the rest is history,
and speaks volumes, little wonder Arriva loose bids.

If you wonder what the fitter was for, its was ATWs idea in their bid,if anything occurred during the journey, little wonder the ORR throw it out.

The key demand on the Cambrian is for a better service Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth, no one on that line that uses the service regularly wants anything else.

So work it out. Two coach DMU 158

Hire of Stock
Diesel
Line access charges
four staff
servicing charges.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

You wouldn't go to Cardiff on a train from Aber to London even if using the Marches! You'd go via Newport.

As for USP, that's easy: no changes. It's amazing on say 2 hourly Chester to Brum how comparatively few Chester to Cardiff pax there are, despite an easy change at Shrewsbury. The intermediate Cardiff services have a lot of through traffic.

But there is now way to vget from Aber to Newport without visitng Cardiff.

Aberystwyth to London, now, that would be different!

 

[yorkie]

You wouldn't go to Cardiff on a train from Aber to London even if using the Marches! You'd go via Newport.

Aber to London? You'd go via Cardiff and Newport

 

[TDK]

Nice one!

You are correct, of course. Any service from Aber to London would have to reverse at Cardiff Central.

Or, it could continue and reverse at my town, serve Central Wales and then provide a Shrewsbury to London service!

Actually there is route that completely misses Newport and Cardiff - well there used to be - you can branch off at Maindee Junction on the the line towards Bristol without touching either or turning the train - W & B used to run a service to Bristol Temple Meads direct from Crewe I think.

 

[tbtc]

It is an open access service,ATW would not be allowed to use any franchise stock, ATW seemed to forget this. Not one penny is allowed to be used on open access that is paid for franchise use

So the Aberystwyth - Birmingham couldn't be extended to London because that'd be Open Access, but the Llandudno - Manchester service can be extended to Manchester Airport?

 

[merlodlliw]

Actually there is route that completely misses Newport and Cardiff - well there used to be - you can branch off at Maindee Junction on the the line towards Bristol without touching either or turning the train - W & B used to run a service to Bristol Temple Meads direct from Crewe I think.

One of them probably W&B ran Manchester to Waterloo Via Shrewsbury/Hereford
Maindee without touching Newport on the up, but called at Newport on the down. This was another 158 fiasco taking around 6 hours each way, I think it only lasted a year due to breakdowns & little passenger traffic,

Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One of them probably W&B ran Manchester to Waterloo Via Shrewsbury/Hereford
Maindee without touching Newport on the up, but called at Newport on the down. This was another 158 fiasco taking around 6 hours each way, I think it only lasted a year due to breakdowns & little passenger traffic,

Bob

What year did this Manchester to Waterloo via Shrewsbury and Hereford service start...and finish.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought this was run by Wales & West and lasted until the franchise remapping in 2004-ish. It also ran to Penzance, with the trains split at Bristol.

Before about 1970 it was the main line between the north west and south west, with through trains from Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow to Bristol/Plymouth/Penzance, all avoiding Newport via the Maindee curve.

I once caught a Motorail service from Newton-le-Willows to St Austell, non-stop apart from crew changes at Crewe and Bristol (with full meals).
Lovely route via the Marches, far superior to the industrial drag via Birmingham.

 

[TDK]

I thought this was run by Wales & West and lasted until the franchise remapping in 2004-ish. It also ran to Penzance, with the trains split at Bristol.

Before about 1970 it was the main line between the north west and south west, with through trains from Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow to Bristol/Plymouth/Penzance, all avoiding Newport via the Maindee curve.

I once caught a Motorail service from Newton-le-Willows to St Austell, non-stop apart from crew changes at Crewe and Bristol (with full meals).
Lovely route via the Marches, far superior to the industrial drag via Birmingham.

The route to Waterloo was I think, Manchester - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Hereford - Salisbury - Woking - Surbiton - Wimbledon - Waterloo, it did take a long time and if I remember correctly it was on this route an accident occured where the 158 had to use it's 1 shot sander, dissapeared from the signal boxes panel, lost it's track circuit detection and got hit up the rear by another train, this was when they decided to fit them with TCA aerial loops - sorry to go off topic

 

[merlodlliw]

The route to Waterloo was I think, Manchester - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Hereford - Salisbury - Woking - Surbiton - Wimbledon - Waterloo, it did take a long time and if I remember correctly it was on this route an accident occured where the 158 had to use it's 1 shot sander, dissapeared from the signal boxes panel, lost it's track circuit detection and got hit up the rear by another train, this was when they decided to fit them with TCA aerial loops - sorry to go off topic

Your route is correct, it was Wales & West, whoever ran the Cardiff Manchester Services at that time , I do recall a programme on tv about the boss of a London based TOC being shadowed for a day around his region, at one station the failed 158 from Manchester was seen in a bay,the CEOs comments about the Manchester/Waterloo run & failures was interesting listening. It was around the same time that North Western Trains ran
services Man Vic & Man Airport to Euston as OA,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought this was run by Wales & West and lasted until the franchise remapping in 2004-ish. It also ran to Penzance, with the trains split at Bristol.

Correct, It was Wales & West. I recall this TOC also being paid £1M to run one daily service (158) Cardiff to Holyhead via Wrexham for a year, it stopped at every station, including Llandudno junction twice, both on the up & down(4 times in total), it arrived in Wrexham about 1000 down & 1600? on the up, few used the service which took well over six hours.
it was an attempt to bring North & South together, all other services ran via Crewe at the time, I only recall one other Cardiff/Holyhead class 40 evening service I used, but a couple of others may well have run.

 

[Greenback]

Actually there is route that completely misses Newport and Cardiff - well there used to be - you can branch off at Maindee Junction on the the line towards Bristol without touching either or turning the train - W & B used to run a service to Bristol Temple Meads direct from Crewe I think.

How do you get from Aber to Maindee Junction without going through Cardiff though?

I think I'll give up on this one...

Aber to London? You'd go via Cardiff and Newport

At least one person gets it!

 

[merlodlliw]

How do you get from Aber to Maindee Junction without going through Cardiff though?

I think I'll give up on this one...



At least one person gets it!

Perhaps I may have the wrong junction name,after leaving Cwmbran but just before Newport there is or was a double line to the left off the up line, this was the route to Bristol without going into Newport from the Shrewsbury direction. This was the route of the Manchester to Waterloo.

Later.
Having looked at the Maps, on the up after Cwmbran, the line does or did, branch to the left for Bristol as a double track thus avoiding Newport, so in many ways a kind of triangle,I agree Maindee Junction is just after Newport, but the area is known as Maindee to many, so TDK is correct



Bob

 

[Invincibles]

How do you get from Aber to Maindee Junction without going through Cardiff though?

I think I'll give up on this one...



At least one person gets it!

It has almost reached the point where it is not funny any more hasn't it

Unless the routing is via Maindee and reversal at Shrewsbury then Swansea avoider?

 

[tbtc]

It has almost reached the point where it is not funny any more hasn't it

Unless the routing is via Maindee and reversal at Shrewsbury then Swansea avoider?

I reckon it'll still keep going for a page or two...

 

[1V53]

I think a few people are trying to be amusing by intentionally confusing the obvious abbreviation for Aberystwyth with a little known small station west of Cardiff.

 

[TDK]

I think a few people are trying to be amusing by intentionally confusing the obvious abbreviation for Aberystwyth with a little known small station west of Cardiff.

Oh yes - I see now - it takes all sorts 1V53 - maybe they feel insulted that we refer to Aberystwyth as Aber

 

[LE Greys]

Well, my opinion is that a Cambrian Coast Express (which is what the service ammounts to) is a good idea for the sake of good ideas, but there are a couple of awkward points. Firstly, Birmingham and Virgin. Has the issue with New Street and Wolves been solved? If it has, then Birmingham passengers could help to prop it up. Second, capacity through Birmingham. I've always thought that that presented a major problem to any service expansion. Third, stock. 67s are too heavy for the Cambrian, 158s are unsuitable for Chiltern (although probably manageable), 37s would never be approved and 168s are not fitted with ERTMS (although the last is solveable). Fourth, if you could sort the capacity issues (the ideal would be to reconnect Oxley to Snow Hill via Wolverhampton Low Level) then the money might be better spent in doubling the Shrewsbury-Birmingham stopping service.

As for Aber-Marylebone. I like the idea of routing it through Shrewsbury, plenty of stations along the Welsh Marches line would benefit. Why not? I'd use it, it's required line mileage.

 

[TDK]

Well, my opinion is that a Cambrian Coast Express (which is what the service ammounts to) is a good idea for the sake of good ideas, but there are a couple of awkward points. Firstly, Birmingham and Virgin. Has the issue with New Street and Wolves been solved? If it has, then Birmingham passengers could help to prop it up. Second, capacity through Birmingham. I've always thought that that presented a major problem to any service expansion. Third, stock. 67s are too heavy for the Cambrian, 158s are unsuitable for Chiltern (although probably manageable), 37s would never be approved and 168s are not fitted with ERTMS (although the last is solveable). Fourth, if you could sort the capacity issues (the ideal would be to reconnect Oxley to Snow Hill via Wolverhampton Low Level) then the money might be better spent in doubling the Shrewsbury-Birmingham stopping service.

As for Aber-Marylebone. I like the idea of routing it through Shrewsbury, plenty of stations along the Welsh Marches line would benefit. Why not? I'd use it, it's required line mileage.

The route if it ever got off the ground wouldn't go through Birmingham New Street - it would route Woles - Portobello Jct. - Perry Barr - Aston - Stechford - Coventry I believe

 

[LE Greys]

The route if it ever got off the ground wouldn't go through Birmingham New Street - it would route Woles - Portobello Jct. - Perry Barr - Aston - Stechford - Coventry I believe

Which is why it will never work. Without a direct routing and stops in central Birmingham, there will be no time savings and no reason why passengers should not simply change to a Euston service.

 

[The Planner]

The route if it ever got off the ground wouldn't go through Birmingham New Street - it would route Woles - Portobello Jct. - Perry Barr - Aston - Stechford - Coventry I believe

What would ? the ATW extensions, or something else ? The ATW ones were extensions off the current International paths and if it was ever brought back up it would be the same.

 

[1V53]

Which is why it will never work. Without a direct routing and stops in central Birmingham, there will be no time savings and no reason why passengers should not simply change to a Euston service.

You miss the point. There is quite a reasonable Aberystwyth/Shrewsbury-London flow and a lot of people hate changing trains. Plus all the relevant revenue would go to ATW instead of a sizeable chunk passing to Virgin.

As you quite rightly say, there is a robust Birmingham-Euston service already, so I'm not sure how the ATW service serving a city already saturated with London trains would be viable to ATW?!

 

[TDK]

What would ? the ATW extensions, or something else ? The ATW ones were extensions off the current International paths and if it was ever brought back up it would be the same.

But that route was rejected by the ORR - the only way for OA by any company including ATW would be to avoid the NS corridor.

 

[The Planner]

I thought we were on about Arriva doing it as a part of the DB/Chiltern etc etc etc partnership. Even so, there is nothing to stop an OA trying to get a path through New St and Id still bet money on someone giving it a go again post 2012 from some random destination.

 

[LE Greys]

You miss the point. There is quite a reasonable Aberystwyth/Shrewsbury-London flow and a lot of people hate changing trains. Plus all the relevant revenue would go to ATW instead of a sizeable chunk passing to Virgin.

As you quite rightly say, there is a robust Birmingham-Euston service already, so I'm not sure how the ATW service serving a city already saturated with London trains would be viable to ATW?!

OK, let's assume the service calls,

Aberystwyth > Borth > Dovey Junction > Machynlleth > Caersws > Newtown > Welshpool > Shrewsbury > Telford Central > Wolverhampton > Sandwell and Dudley > Birmingham New Street > Solihull > Warwick Parkway > Warwick > Leamington Spa > Banbury > Princes Risborough > High Wycombe > London Marylebone

If they used an existing Chiltern path, then revenue generated on the Chiltern service and for Birmingham-Cambrian passengers could prop up the small number of through passengers, just as London-Edinburgh can help prop up London-Aberdeen. Imagine that all Aberdeen services had to go around the Edinburgh Suburban line without stopping, it would cut deep into their profitability. Chiltern, of course, competes with Virgin by being essentially a cheaper option without much loss of speed. Cut out the Birmingham stop and you lose that.

 

[merlodlliw]

What would ? the ATW extensions, or something else ? The ATW ones were extensions off the current International paths and if it was ever brought back up it would be the same.

First of all, Those now living in leatherland, wanted around five trains a day,then after reflection decided on two, the station chosen by ATW for Birmingham to London was Smethwick Galton Bridge, ATW expecting passengers to congregate at Galton Bridge, some hope.

ATW will not be reapplying, there is no profit in the route, or stock available,the dream was pure spoiler.


Bob







]

 

[1V53]

OK, let's assume the service calls,

Aberystwyth > Borth > Dovey Junction > Machynlleth > Caersws > Newtown > Welshpool > Shrewsbury > Telford Central > Wolverhampton > Sandwell and Dudley > Birmingham New Street > Solihull > Warwick Parkway > Warwick > Leamington Spa > Banbury > Princes Risborough > High Wycombe > London Marylebone

If they used an existing Chiltern path, then revenue generated on the Chiltern service and for Birmingham-Cambrian passengers could prop up the small number of through passengers, just as London-Edinburgh can help prop up London-Aberdeen. Imagine that all Aberdeen services had to go around the Edinburgh Suburban line without stopping, it would cut deep into their profitability. Chiltern, of course, competes with Virgin by being essentially a cheaper option without much loss of speed. Cut out the Birmingham stop and you lose that.

I think you'd be surprised by the relatively large number of Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury to London pax, but I see what you are saying.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you'd be surprised by the relatively large number of Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury to London pax, but I see what you are saying.

Even with the University Aber is less than 20K,the other stops to Salop don't amount to that number all put together, there might be a good number travelling at weekend to Uni, probably 70% by car, but Monday to Thursday sees little movement of Uni students,and summer is only three peak months.

ATW staff admitted at meetings, very few would have used the service direct to London using DMUs and more important as open access it would have to prove the demand and make a profit,ATW even when presenting the ORR with inflated figures could not prove the service would ever be in profit.

 

[Greenback]

It has almost reached the point where it is not funny any more hasn't it

Unless the routing is via Maindee and reversal at Shrewsbury then Swansea avoider?

Perhaps it was never funny?

I reckon it'll still keep going for a page or two...

No, I am going to kill it off now!

I think a few people are trying to be amusing by intentionally confusing the obvious abbreviation for Aberystwyth with a little known small station west of Cardiff.

No, there is a serious point to all this. Anyone who is unfamiliar with the railways in the area may do a google search for Aber, and get train times and information for the wrong place.

It may eeem like pedantry of the highest order but I agree with the forum staff that accuracy when naming stations is vital to avoid confusion for those not from the area under discussion.

I am not at all familiar with routes or station sin some aprts of the UK, like Northern Ireland, and I am sure I could get confused if I misread a local abbreviation or code. Most of the suburban networks are a mystery to me, if someone is talking about routes across Manchester I like to look at maps and try and familiarise myself with what is being discussed. It is more difficult to do that if the full name is not used. Simples!

Oh yes - I see now - it takes all sorts 1V53 - maybe they feel insulted that we refer to Aberystwyth as Aber

No, not at all, it makes little diference to me personally as I know where both are. But I am sorry if you are offended or upset by my heavy handed attempts to make a serious point!

I trust I have clarified things and we can all get back to the discussion in hand!