Chiltern now part of Arriva

[tbtc]

There's a difference between an overlap and a directly competing service. There's loads of (much better) examples of overlap, particularly former NX ones: MML/Central, Central/one, Wessex/W&B. These are not profitable lines which operators are stumbling over each other to pay a premium for, and typically only overlap on relatively small portions of routes substantially differing in nature (e.g. London - Leeds and Liverpool - Norwich, which shared the Nottingham - Sheffield line).

By 'competing service', I mean high-demand/high-profit corridors e.g.:

Bedford/Luton/Kettering - London: Stagecoach/EMT and First/FCC
Birmingham - London: Virgin & Stagecoach/VWC, GoVia/LM and Arriva/CH
Doncaster - London: DOR/EC, First/HT and Grand Central

Main stations with a "+Connections" alternative are at a significant disadvantage; the public react negatively to changing

Whilst the examples you've given clearly show two competing TOCs on one busy "commuter" corridor (and there are others, such as Cambridge - London or Brighton - London), bear in mind there are also examples such as

• Ipswich - London Liverpool Street (used to be Anglia versus FGE, now all one TOC)
• Reading - London Paddington (used to be Thames Trains versus FGW, now all one TOC)
• Gatwick - London Victoria (used to be Gatwick Express versus South Central, now all one TOC)
• Birmingham - East Midlands (used to be Virgin XC versus Central Trains, now all one TOC)

Plus also the scrapping of "competing" services (like SWT from Cornwall to London), shows that the powers that be seem pretty relaxed about one TOC having a significant "monopoly" (e.g. I'd imagine that the market for Reading/Ipswich to London is much higher in passenger volumes than the flows from every Scottish station combined to London)

 

[TDK]

Arriva UK Management are known to be very risk-averse;
They probably knew about the upcoming fine on Chiltern;
Finally, WSMR was losing over £1million a year....

Who wouldn't close it?
,

So, is Arriva UK management exactly the same as the old Arriva management? If so it won't be long before DB realises their poor mangement of Arriva UK prior to DB taking over and replacing them if they have not already. I will not go into the reasons why WSMR were not making a profit!:-x

 

[Chris B]

As far as I know, yes!

And I would have thought 5 months was long enough for DB to have worked this out too!

Do elucidate on why WSMR never made money...

 

[1V53]

As far as I know, yes!

And I would have thought 5 months was long enough for DB to have worked this out too!

Do elucidate on why WSMR never made money...

Partly the flow from Wrexham and Shrewsbury wasn't great enough, partly that was because of the long journey time to London made changing at Brum or Chester more attractive. The fare charged wasn't high enough (£40 peak fare to arrive before 9 is just ridiculous) and partly the unfair competition (unable to pick up at Wvh or Bhm and Virgin starting direct faster services to Euston from Wrx)

 

[Chris B]

That wasn't unfair competition!

Well, it would have ben on the TOC that would have lost custom / income. They had a contract saying they were emtiyled to it!

 

[1V53]

That wasn't unfair competition!

Well, it would have ben on the TOC that would have lost custom / income. They had a contract saying they were emtiyled to it!

Funny how they only started a Wrexham to London service AFTER WSMR did?! Yet WSMR had their hands tied in competing back. Yes technically permissible and WSMR knew the score before they started. Still, a very uneven playing field.

 

[tbtc]

Partly the flow from Wrexham and Shrewsbury wasn't great enough, partly that was because of the long journey time to London made changing at Brum or Chester more attractive. The fare charged wasn't high enough (£40 peak fare to arrive before 9 is just ridiculous) and partly the unfair competition (unable to pick up at Wvh or Bhm and Virgin starting direct faster services to Euston from Wrx)

Call me naive, but could it have had something to do with running three (?) return journeys a day, yet employing over fifty members of staff?

The "competition" rules were known in advance, but it was WSMR's decision to employ so many people

 

[WillPS]

Whilst the examples you've given clearly show two competing TOCs on one busy "commuter" corridor (and there are others, such as Cambridge - London or Brighton - London), bear in mind there are also examples such as

• Ipswich - London Liverpool Street (used to be Anglia versus FGE, now all one TOC)
• Reading - London Paddington (used to be Thames Trains versus FGW, now all one TOC)
• Gatwick - London Victoria (used to be Gatwick Express versus South Central, now all one TOC)
• Birmingham - East Midlands (used to be Virgin XC versus Central Trains, now all one TOC)

Plus also the scrapping of "competing" services (like SWT from Cornwall to London), shows that the powers that be seem pretty relaxed about one TOC having a significant "monopoly" (e.g. I'd imagine that the market for Reading/Ipswich to London is much higher in passenger volumes than the flows from every Scottish station combined to London)

Forcing competing services in to one franchise is also different though. For one, the consumer is under no doubt as to the ultimate operator as they may not be if, say, Midland Mainline and Central both ran Nottingham - London. Additionally, the terms of 'monopoly' under merger is controlled in the franchise terms directly by the DfT.

 

[T163R]

Just imagine: "Arriva Chiltern Railways", with Arriva's green livery...
*runs to toilet*

 

[WillPS]

Given that even before the merger Arriva had absolutely minimised their brand on new franchises (CrossCountry) I see that as incredibly unlikely.

I think it's far more likely we see DB's brand appearing, especially once their domestic services make their way through the Chunnel.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The stated DB position is that Arriva will be its brand for passenger services outside Germany, which is why I think Chiltern and XC will be branded Arriva sooner or later.
The DB brand will remain for Germany and for international services from Germany (so any Channel Tunnel services will be DB).

Did you notice that Arriva took over some DB Schenker operations yesterday (4 depots transferred to LNWR)?

http://www.arriva.co.uk/arriva/en/media_centre/press_releases/2011/2011-05-05/

Looks like more integration on the way.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As long as "Corporate Branding" is viewed as a commercial asset marketing tool, the words "Arriva" and "First" will remain as part of the named asset strategy.

Look at the company prefixes of bus companies..."First" and "Stagecoach" are good examples of this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just imagine: "Arriva Chiltern Railways", with Arriva's green livery...
*runs to toilet*

"Green" livery...its more like turquoise up on the Manchester to South Wales route and on the "Arriva" bus fleet in Cheshire and in South Manchester.

Still, all the historical railway buffs will remember what led to the term "IMPROVED ENGINE GREEN"...one man's yellow ochre is another man's green

 

[bengley]

Is it just me or does it now seem extremely likely that there will be a London to Aber service soon?

 

[mumrar]

Is it just me or does it now seem extremely likely that there will be a London to Aber service soon?

I don't know. It depends what information you're basing that observation on. If it's pure conjecture then it is hardly relevant, if it's based on hard evidence somewhere, I and I'm sure others would like a read too.

 

[bengley]

I don't know. It depends what information you're basing that observation on. If it's pure conjecture then it is hardly relevant, if it's based on hard evidence somewhere, I and I'm sure others would like a read too.

Well as it was Arriva who originally wanted to run the service, but were denied it because of WSMR, who are now gone, wouldn't it make sense for either Chiltern or Arriva to start running to Aber/Marylebone respectively?

 

[Mojo]

Is it just me or does it now seem extremely likely that there will be a London to Aber service soon?

Is there that much of demand for a service to Aber? I haven't heard of any such proposals.

Sure it's busy-ish given its location (almost 200k journeys per year), but it would have to reverse at Cardiff Central (I think) and even then what are the terminating facilities like there? I've been through there but never alighted, from the maps and looking on Wikipedia it looks just like a suburb of a fairly insignificant town (no offence to those who live in Caerphilly; I'd say my hometown is fairly insignificant too).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Is there that much of demand for a service to Aber? I haven't heard of any such proposals.

Sure it's busy-ish given its location (almost 200k journeys per year), but it would have to reverse at Cardiff Central (I think) and even then what are the terminating facilities like there? I've been through there but never alighted, from the maps and looking on Wikipedia it looks just like a suburb of a fairly insignificant town (no offence to those who live in Caerphilly; I'd say my hometown is fairly insignificant too).

Aberystwyth to London would go the same route the WSMR did, via Shrewsbury, the West Midlands and the Chiltern mainline into Marylebone. It wouldnt go anywhere near Cardiff.
There have been rumours of Aberystwyth to London for years and it would have happened if it wasnt for WSMR happening instead.
There is a steady flow of passengers between Aberystwyth and London, mostly because of the university in Aberystwyth and a train or two a day would certainly cater to those people but they currently have a decent option with a change at Birmingham International so its not like they are starved of a route to the capital. Being able to run a train from Wales to London via Birmingham and actually be allowed to stop at stations in Birmingham that lots of people actually use would almost certainly stop the Arriva service going the way of WSMR if it ever happens. It probably will sooner or later.

 

[The Planner]

Apart from Mojo needing a bigger net, I dont think the original ATW paths exist now and the original WSMR paths have been eaten into as part of EG3.

 

[TDK]

Aberystwyth to London would go the same route the WSMR did, via Shrewsbury, the West Midlands and the Chiltern mainline into Marylebone. It wouldnt go anywhere near Cardiff.
There have been rumours of Aberystwyth to London for years and it would have happened if it wasnt for WSMR happening instead.
There is a steady flow of passengers between Aberystwyth and London, mostly because of the university in Aberystwyth and a train or two a day would certainly cater to those people but they currently have a decent option with a change at Birmingham International so its not like they are starved of a route to the capital. Being able to run a train from Wales to London via Birmingham and actually be allowed to stop at stations in Birmingham that lots of people actually use would almost certainly stop the Arriva service going the way of WSMR if it ever happens. It probably will sooner or later.

158's will never be permitted on the Chilterns south of Aynho as the timings are as tight as can be for the new timing proposals and a 90mph unit with the poor accelleration of a 158 would never get a slot. The other path they may be able to run is Birmingham International - Coventry - Leamington - Banbury - Oxford - Reading - Paddington, maybe planner has an idea on this pathing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it just me or does it now seem extremely likely that there will be a London to Aber service soon?

Extrmely unlikely - see above
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well as it was Arriva who originally wanted to run the service, but were denied it because of WSMR, who are now gone, wouldn't it make sense for either Chiltern or Arriva to start running to Aber/Marylebone respectively?

Chiltern couldn't run it direct as on class 158 units are permitted, the reason ATW didn't get the bid to run the service is alledgedly they fudged the figures and got found out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Call me naive, but could it have had something to do with running three (?) return journeys a day, yet employing over fifty members of staff?

The "competition" rules were known in advance, but it was WSMR's decision to employ so many people

Yes you are naive - WSMR started with 5 trains a day - on every train was a driver, Guard, senior steward & steward - then you had the management on top of that as well - it wasn't anything to do with the amount of staff that were employed.

 

[TomJ93]

Being on a 158 that long would be unbearable. 158/175 to Cardiff HST the rest of the way is a far more appealing prospect.

Coupled with the lack of catering provisions aboard a 158.

 

[tbtc]

Yes you are naive - WSMR started with 5 trains a day - on every train was a driver, Guard, senior steward & steward - then you had the management on top of that as well - it wasn't anything to do with the amount of staff that were employed.

They weren't running five trains a day at the end, were they?

Having that many staff on each train ensures you keep passenger satisfaction up, but its not very efficient, sorry.

 

[mumrar]

Well as it was Arriva who originally wanted to run the service, but were denied it because of WSMR, who are now gone, wouldn't it make sense for either Chiltern or Arriva to start running to Aber/Marylebone respectively?

So, pure conjecture then

 

[WestCoast]

Being on a 158 that long would be unbearable. 158/175 to Cardiff HST the rest of the way is a far more appealing prospect.

Coupled with the lack of catering provisions aboard a 158.

Well, you can already do even longer journeys on a 158 and the units with the original model of seating are rather comfortable. They were built for long-distances after all. To me, these units offer the same levels of comfort that a Voyager could provide.

I'm sure catering could be sorted out - long distance CrossCountry passengers have just a trolley too!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

158s used to work Liverpool Lime St - Stanstead Airport. Well over five hours!

 

[WestCountry]

158s used to work Liverpool Lime St - Stanstead Airport. Well over five hours!

They still run Lime St - Norwich (even longer if anything). And it's Stansted, not Stanstead...

 

[WestCoast]

158s used to work Liverpool Lime St - Stanstead Airport. Well over five hours!

Yes, EMT still run them on Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich which is over 5h30mins. Scotrail and ATW have them on 4hour+ runs.

A small batch of them were used on long BR CrossCountry runs and they also saw use by Virgin on Manchester - Scotland InterCity services in the late 90s.

Many people see them as shorter-distance units, but they're not at all in my opinion. That's what the earlier sprinters 150-155 (and pacers 142-144) were designed for.

The 158 superseded the 156 as the medium-long distance "inter-regional" unit, but I don't think the 156 was quite good enough for long-distances!

 

[The Planner]

158's will never be permitted on the Chilterns south of Aynho as the timings are as tight as can be for the new timing proposals and a 90mph unit with the poor accelleration of a 158 would never get a slot. The other path they may be able to run is Birmingham International - Coventry - Leamington - Banbury - Oxford - Reading - Paddington, maybe planner has an idea on this pathing?

The paths they had originally were fine and worked even at 90mph, but that was pre EG3 of course. You still have 165s trundling up and down to Banbury at 75mph remember, and if you put a 158 infront of a stopping 168 it would still probably work or try and hide it at Risborough to be overtaken. It would all depend on what they wanted it to do, run it non stop from Leamington and I bet you could slot it in. Cov - Banbury is just as bad to timetable due to the single line and class 4s knocking about.

As for running it to Padd, again, depends on what you wanted it to do stop wise. I doubt it would be far behind a 166 path wise.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't want to decry those who aspire to a London to Aberystwyth service, but all I will say that the last London to Wales service (Wrexham and Shropshire) to enter service did not fare well in real life and this was a direct service that did not require reversals.

Has this proposed project ever been costed and loading expectations fully understood. The matter of suitable rolling stock which will have to provide high-quality passenger faciities on what would be quite a long journey from London would also need careful examination.

I agree with a former post on this thread that Birmingham is a natural hub for the proposed catchment area with an existing service in place.

 

[MCR247]

They weren't running five trains a day at the end, were they?

Having that many staff on each train ensures you keep passenger satisfaction up, but its not very efficient, sorry.

Remember though, if you are running a route like WSMR ran, you have to have a USP

Using Virgin and connecting to ATW's USP was that it was fastest.
If WSMR was just run with 170s with a trolley and in first you got a free drink, why would people want to go out of their way to use you?

 

[Greenback]

Is there that much of demand for a service to Aber? I haven't heard of any such proposals.

Sure it's busy-ish given its location (almost 200k journeys per year), but it would have to reverse at Cardiff Central (I think) and even then what are the terminating facilities like there? I've been through there but never alighted, from the maps and looking on Wikipedia it looks just like a suburb of a fairly insignificant town (no offence to those who live in Caerphilly; I'd say my hometown is fairly insignificant too).

Nice one!

You are correct, of course. Any service from Aber to London would have to reverse at Cardiff Central.

Or, it could continue and reverse at my town, serve Central Wales and then provide a Shrewsbury to London service!