Chiltern now part of Arriva

[LNW-GW Joint]

The declared purpose of DB's acquisition of Arriva last year was that it would run all DB's passenger operations in the UK, but nothing much seemed be happening on the ground to integrate them.

But now, buried in the Arriva annual results, it says in black and white that Arriva UK Trains now includes the Laing Rail businesses (Chiltern, half of LOROL, Tyne & Wear Metro) and also Alliance Rail.

http://www.arriva.co.uk/arriva/en/media_centre/press_releases/2011/2011-05-03/2011-05-03.pdf

You would never have guessed this from reading the Chiltern Railways web site.

Why are they all so reticent about publicising their corporate structure?

Can we expect Chiltern to be branded as Arriva (and Cross Country come to that)?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

What?!

 

[Simon Poole]

WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!! hock:hock::xSo they still be called Chiltern Railways?

I bet they brough Chiltern Raiilways so they get rid of a rival and they can have their Aberystwyth To London service!

 

[Clip]

Cant be bothered to read all that but i bet Mr Shooter wouldnt be too happy to see his baby rebranded

 

[WestCoast]

You would never have guessed this from reading the Chiltern Railways web site.

Why are they all so reticent about publicising their corporate structure?

Can we expect Chiltern to be branded as Arriva (and Cross Country come to that)?

Perhaps because no-one wants to be associated with Arriva?:roll:

They are doing this themselves with "CrossCountry" - Arriva is barely mentioned! To be honest, transport brand names are best left out of TOC names. There is too many "Firsts".

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I have been told that Chiltern Railways will remain as its own franchise with its own brand for the foreseeable future.

 

[sprinterguy]

As it’s well known that DB own Chiltern, it makes sense for DB to group all of its’ UK rail franchises under the “Arriva” group moniker which it also owns. DB have proved to be reticent in splashing the DB brand across their franchises, so I don’t imagine we will see any change in branding, or for that matter any change in management or operation of the individual franchises.

Given that Arriva have operated Crosscountry since day one of the new franchise in 2007, then it’s rather clear that XC are not going to display Arriva or DB branding.

 

[SS4]

Can't see this making much difference to the passenger. Chiltern is a strong brand, they'd be crazy to change anything the passenger may notice and so I don't see anything really changing

 

[starrymarkb]

WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!! hock:hock::xSo they still be called Chiltern Railways?

I bet they brough Chiltern Raiilways so they get rid of a rival and they can have their Aberystwyth To London service!

Other way around, DB (Chiltern's owner) bought Arriva - probably to get their hands on Arriva's German and Dutch operations

 

[Railjet]

Other way around, DB (Chiltern's owner) bought Arriva - probably to get their hands on Arriva's German and Dutch operations

I thought that DB had to divest itself of Arriva's German operations as part of the takeover deal?

 

[starrymarkb]

I thought that DB had to divest itself of Arriva's German operations as part of the takeover deal?

Maybe - I hadn't read up too much on it. I know Arriva were very active on the continent though much like EWS

 

[WillPS]

Is it just me that read "A new rail bid team has been developed and will be assessing opportunities arising from UK rail franchises coming up for tender in the next two years." to mean 'we're intent on not screwing up like we did on CrossCountry again!'.

 

[Clip]

Is it just me that read "A new rail bid team has been developed and will be assessing opportunities arising from UK rail franchises coming up for tender in the next two years." to mean 'we're intent on not screwing up like we did on CrossCountry again!'.

Was just reading in latest rail mag(which on ei have no idea) but i see DB are getting slated for not concentrating enough on their core business back home and have been told by the govt there to fix up before looking elsewhere again.

 

[MCR247]

I thought that DB had to divest itself of Arriva's German operations as part of the takeover deal?

They did

 

[tbtc]

Is it just me that read "A new rail bid team has been developed and will be assessing opportunities arising from UK rail franchises coming up for tender in the next two years." to mean 'we're intent on not screwing up like we did on CrossCountry again!'.

Interesting that they didn't get shortlisted for the WCML franchise in that case

 

[TDK]

The declared purpose of DB's acquisition of Arriva last year was that it would run all DB's passenger operations in the UK, but nothing much seemed be happening on the ground to integrate them.

But now, buried in the Arriva annual results, it says in black and white that Arriva UK Trains now includes the Laing Rail businesses (Chiltern, half of LOROL, Tyne & Wear Metro) and also Alliance Rail.

http://www.arriva.co.uk/arriva/en/media_centre/press_releases/2011/2011-05-03/2011-05-03.pdf

You would never have guessed this from reading the Chiltern Railways web site.

Why are they all so reticent about publicising their corporate structure?

Can we expect Chiltern to be branded as Arriva (and Cross Country come to that)?

Although this was released on 03/05 I think it may be an older documents because of this quote "In July 2010 Arriva acquired Alliance Rail Holdings, which is developing proposals for
open access services on the West Coast Main Line and East Coast Main Line to
serve towns and cities in the north of England which currently have no direct services
to London. The open access approach would complement our portfolio of franchises
and contracts.
A new rail bid team has been developed and will be assessing opportunities arising
from UK rail franchises coming up for tender in the next two years.

The OA bid was chucked out by the ORR, the new rail bid team also failed with the WCML by not even getting a sniff - so this is a great start from Arriva UK
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WHAT THE HELL!!!!!!!!!! hock:hock::xSo they still be called Chiltern Railways?

I bet they brough Chiltern Raiilways so they get rid of a rival and they can have their Aberystwyth To London service!

Simon - you know that is utter rubish - for a strat no one has bought Chiltern Railways however DB now own the Arriva Group PLC and DB also own Chiltern, the Arriva brand has been kept for whatever reason DB descides so therefore there isn't an Arriva anymore it is DB with an Arriva brand name.

 

[185]

Usual Arriva press release garbage, hiding the years screw ups. No mention of Wrexham & Shropshire, unsurprisingly.

 

[WillPS]

Interesting that they didn't get shortlisted for the WCML franchise in that case

Perhaps to do with competition issues with Chiltern (and GNWR if that ends up going anywhere)?

 

[mumrar]

Usual Arriva press release garbage, hiding the years screw ups. No mention of Wrexham & Shropshire, unsurprisingly.

Why would Arriva talk about WSMR? They are/were owned by DB. This is a press release regarding the Arriva business, not DB.

 

[WillPS]

Why would Arriva talk about WSMR? They are/were owned by DB. This is a press release regarding the Arriva business, not DB.

Laing Rail has been merged in to Arriva Rail UK, so it's not beyond relevance.

 

[mumrar]

Laing Rail has been merged in to Arriva Rail UK, so it's not beyond relevance.

But I understood this merger to have taken place after the demise of WSMR, and so therefore it would be.

Even if it was relevant, what would Arriva be expected to say?

My post may have seemed defensive but that's down to the perpetual XC/Arriva criticisms and slanging versus the Chiltern Railways outlook which always seems similar to that of the Daily Express about Princess Diana!

 

[tbtc]

Perhaps to do with competition issues with Chiltern (and GNWR if that ends up going anywhere)?

Well, if the bids were "sealed" (as we are told they are) then how would anyone know?

We talk about TOCs not being allowed "adjacent" franchises, but is there any evidence of this not being allowed?

 

[jopsuk]

No. South Eastern and Southern, for example. National Express were allowed East Anglia and East Coast. Transpenine operates into Scotrail territory (both First). Stagecoach have 49% stake in Virgin (West Coast) and operate EMT. XC run trains to Wales.

I think it's fair to say that any "no adjacent franchises" is pure fiction- and would have to have an exception for XC anyway, as they overlap at some point with every franchise barring Southeastern and c2c (by my reckoning)

 

[tbtc]

No. South Eastern and Southern, for example. National Express were allowed East Anglia and East Coast. Transpenine operates into Scotrail territory (both First). Stagecoach have 49% stake in Virgin (West Coast) and operate EMT. XC run trains to Wales.

I think it's fair to say that any "no adjacent franchises" is pure fiction- and would have to have an exception for XC anyway, as they overlap at some point with every franchise barring Southeastern and c2c (by my reckoning)

I'd agree with that.

If overlapping were "banned" then DB would never have been allowed to take over Arriva (or Arriva get both Wales/Borders and XC)

 

[Chris B]

But I understood this merger to have taken place after the demise of WSMR, and so therefore it would be.

No, before.

DB owns Arriva UK, whjich owns the TOCs.

So - DB Annual report will mention Arriva UK....
Arriva UK report will mention the TOCs....but not DB
etc etc.

btw - Chiltern letterhead has a DB logo on it, not Arriva UK logo.

 

[TDK]

Why would Arriva talk about WSMR? They are/were owned by DB. This is a press release regarding the Arriva business, not DB.

But Arriva UK is DB - Arriva as we all knew them no longer exist it is just the brand name that is being kept - before Arriva Group it was DB regio
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I understood this merger to have taken place after the demise of WSMR, and so therefore it would be.

Even if it was relevant, what would Arriva be expected to say?

My post may have seemed defensive but that's down to the perpetual XC/Arriva criticisms and slanging versus the Chiltern Railways outlook which always seems similar to that of the Daily Express about Princess Diana!

It just seems a little coincidental that Arriva UK was announced in January and WSMR stopped operations the same month, there is no point in having sub companinies in direct competition with each other for instance ATW/WSMR/Chiltern - I think it was certainly in the Chiltern Groups favour that DB didn't get the chance to go for the WCML because this would have then been direct competition with the WCML franchise with the Birmingham corridor, DB can now concentrate on improving the competition against whoever wins the WCML franchise.

 

[Chris B]

Arriva UK Management are known to be very risk-averse;
They probably knew about the upcoming fine on Chiltern;
Finally, WSMR was losing over £1million a year....

Who wouldn't close it?
,

 

[barrykas]

Finally, WSMR was losing over £1million a year....

Who wouldn't close it?

Someone who thought they might be able to turn it around when MoC protection ends next year and W&S would be able to make open calls at Birmingham International, New Street and Wolverhampton?

Cheers,

Barry

 

[WillPS]

No. South Eastern and Southern, for example. National Express were allowed East Anglia and East Coast. Transpenine operates into Scotrail territory (both First). Stagecoach have 49% stake in Virgin (West Coast) and operate EMT. XC run trains to Wales.

I think it's fair to say that any "no adjacent franchises" is pure fiction- and would have to have an exception for XC anyway, as they overlap at some point with every franchise barring Southeastern and c2c (by my reckoning)

There's a difference between an overlap and a directly competing service. There's loads of (much better) examples of overlap, particularly former NX ones: MML/Central, Central/one, Wessex/W&B. These are not profitable lines which operators are stumbling over each other to pay a premium for, and typically only overlap on relatively small portions of routes substantially differing in nature (e.g. London - Leeds and Liverpool - Norwich, which shared the Nottingham - Sheffield line).

By 'competing service', I mean high-demand/high-profit corridors e.g.:

Bedford/Luton/Kettering - London: Stagecoach/EMT and First/FCC
Birmingham - London: Virgin & Stagecoach/VWC, GoVia/LM and Arriva/CH
Doncaster - London: DOR/EC, First/HT and Grand Central

Main stations with a "+Connections" alternative are at a significant disadvantage; the public react negatively to changing.

We talk about TOCs not being allowed "adjacent" franchises, but is there any evidence of this not being allowed?

Dunno but it seems to make sense given the above.

 

[1V53]

My post may have seemed defensive but that's down to the perpetual XC/Arriva criticisms and slanging versus the Chiltern Railways outlook which always seems similar to that of the Daily Express about Princess Diana!

What what what?! Princess Diana was killed off by DB?! hocked: