Cameras in the driving cab

[Turtle]

What do you think of graduates who drive trains for a living? Are they sell-outs?!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What do you think of graduates who drive trains for a living? Are they sell-outs?!

In the context of this forum and assuming they have the necessary skillset and person spec to drive a train, then I guess not....

 

[RPM]

A possible side-effect of this system might be a reluctance to check one's schedule card so frequently, for fear of triggering a distraction alert. Potentially this could lead to an increase in fail to call incidents and the suchlike. I understand the system has been developed for road use. Train drivers actually take their eyes off the road far more frequently than road drivers, because it is necessary to do so to perform many tasks and it can be done perfectly safely if managed sensibly. Unless the system can be reconfigured to take this into account it will be useless. I rather suspect, by the very nature of how it works, this will not be possible.

As other drivers have said, the idea of driving whilst being constantly aware of being filmed is going to be so distracting it will make the whole thing counterproductive. I can't see this getting beyond initial trials. This is just a tick-box, sticking plaster solution to the fatigue problem. Much more fundamental changes are needed if fatigue is to be properly addressed.

 

[irish_rail]

What do you think of graduates who drive trains for a living? Are they sell-outs?!

I clearly refer to the types that look at a spreadsheet and decide something is a good idea , without ever having experience on the ground. A degree is hardly a barrier to being a decent driver , plenty drivers with degrees nowadays as I'm sure you are aware.

 

[dctraindriver]

What do you think of graduates who drive trains for a living? Are they sell-outs?!

As a train driver with a Masters I didn’t even consider Irish_rails comments as a pop, I think he makes a good point.

 

[Bikeman78]

My first reaction to reading this is to check the date isn't April 1st. Pretty lost for words really. What this WILL lead to is a HUGE increase in driver sickness, as the minute a driver hasn't managed 8 hours sleep for whatever reason

You can write off any drivers with kids for a start. I didn't get anything like 8 hours for years and I've never gone back to sleeping as much as I used to.

 

[irish_rail]

You can write off any drivers with kids for a start. I didn't get anything like 8 hours for years and I've never gone back to sleeping as much as I used to.

Completely agree!

 

[boxerdog]

And to open a bigger can of worms, stupid amounts of money is going to be allocated to this, yet our locos do not have air con fitted and temperatures in excess of 45 degrees in the little cabs, this year !! thats not going to get any better anytime soon.

Perhaps if said instigators had the same conditions of no air con and cameras installed in their offices they'd have more or an idea

The individual can make the decision to say it is too hot to drive and make the choice to decline to continue. Safety critical duties can/are affected by fatigue/dehydration and what are considered excessive temperatures (being hot or cold).

 

[43066]

I clearly refer to the types that look at a spreadsheet and decide something is a good idea , without ever having experience on the ground. A degree is hardly a barrier to being a decent driver , plenty drivers with degrees nowadays as I'm sure you are aware.

Fair enough mate. It’s a broad church of people doing the job these days, that’s for sure.

As a train driver with a Masters I didn’t even consider Irish_rails comments as a pop, I think he makes a good point.

He has clarified his comment.

I agree there is a general problem with things being decided in offices by people who lack operational experience, and then not working in the real world.

 

[TPO]

That is definitely the case.

If fatigue risk is so high, maybe they could try building rosters with less severe shift patterns (02.30 finishes one week, Saunday off, 02.30 starts next week anyone?), or employing more staff so drivers don’t have to work so many rest days. But it looks like they’re going for the spying option, and putting even more pressure on drivers.

Still, you could probably block it with a stop car reminder booklet.

Absolutely. I echo the comments above that, by the time someone is driving a train fatigued, it’s already far too late and safety has been compromised, so I have zero faith that this trial is doing to achieve anything useful. I also agree this is likely to be about getting a camera into the cab more than anything.

The industry has a pretty cack-handed approach to fatigue as we all know taking a “fatigue day” is generally frowned upon more than it should be, and TOCs will do anything they can to avoid admitting that fatigue has contributed to incidents. It’s crazy, when it’s known that fatigue reduced performance as much as being under the influence of alcohol (and we all know how seriously drug and alcohol policies are taken) that the standard industry shift patterns effectively make it impossible for drivers and other staff not to be regularly fatigued when they’re at work.

That is the elephant in the room that needs sorting out first.

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Yes. I suspect being seen to do something was the key driver there. Hence whether the measure taken is effective or not is largely irrelevant.

Well said, my first early can start at 03.40 and jump the next day 0715 back to 4.28, 5.30, 4.14 then finish on a 08.55 that by the end of my 6 early shifts I’m hanging. And it’s a regular occurrence. Week of lates, back to early, rinse and repeat. Is it any wonder a few fall seriously ill or die soon after retirement?

I’m really against this. They won’t sort out the real issue and with cuts etc I can’t see that happening.

Regarding shift times, after many many years doing all different shifts I recently did the late turns only for some time. Within a few weeks I understood how much better I was feeling and how much healthier and less tired I was, even down to generally being in a better mood.

It had a huge affect that I didn't fully understand until I stopped doing shifts for a time

All of this. If fatigue is an issue then sort the rosters out. The body can adapt much better to a consistent pattern than to constant change and apparently populations have a mix of genetically programmed early birds and night owls.

The camera idea does feel very much like a solution looking for a problem as others have said.

Agreed. I would have no issue with the vehicle doing this automatically without any sort of logging or reporting.

I would be concerned if this system involved recording audio and/or video to an insurance black box, for example, or even data for that matter, because people should not be doing important things with observations about my physical condition that are not corroborated by the assessment of a medical professional. In other words an IT system to assist me, by all means, but not one to dob me in for something I may or may not have done; such systems are too imperfect for that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Dec 2022 ==



And that's basically 100% of the problem I have with it.

Particularly as such software isn't perfect. To use a relevant example, the passport office's checking software rejected my last passport photo because I had my eyes closed. I didn't, I just don't have very big eyes. I had to faff about with an awkward process to override it if I recall. Thus I can see that, even if not fatigued, I'd be triggering something like this by the minutes.

In short I object in the most strong way possible to anything which involves "computer says no" being key to my continued employment in any form.

I am surprised that there's no Equalities Act challenge yet...... from what I understand of facial recognition algorithms, they are much less accurate if you are not an average Caucasian male. I seem to recall that a police force somewhere in UK had to abandon facial recognition cameras for that reason, however that was a while ago and I cannot remember details. But if I was an ASLEF rep involved in the trial I'd be asking questions about how the algorithm was trained and wanting to see proper evidence of validation across the whole range of facial types (different ethnic origin, gender, age) as an absolute minimum.

TPO

 

[Aviator88]

It's a reactive 'solution' to a problem that should be prevented/mitigated via other means in the first place.

In-cab cameras have been in use in (some) HGVs for a few years now, albeit more as an incentive by insurers for evidence gathering post accident. Case in point - a driver at a company I used to work for placed his vehicle in one of the drains out in the Fens. His explanation was that the camber 'just grabbed him'. It did. Whilst he was digging around his bag for his sausage roll!