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Cameras in the driving cab

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dctraindriver

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Absolutely. I echo the comments above that, by the time someone is driving a train fatigued, it’s already far too late and safety has been compromised, so I have zero faith that this trial is doing to achieve anything useful. I also agree this is likely to be about getting a camera into the cab more than anything.

The industry has a pretty cack-handed approach to fatigue as we all know taking a “fatigue day” is generally frowned upon more than it should be, and TOCs will do anything they can to avoid admitting that fatigue has contributed to incidents. It’s crazy, when it’s known that fatigue reduced performance as much as being under the influence of alcohol (and we all know how seriously drug and alcohol policies are taken) that the standard industry shift patterns effectively make it impossible for drivers and other staff not to be regularly fatigued when they’re at work.

That is the elephant in the room that needs sorting out first.

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Yes. I suspect being seen to do something was the key driver there. Hence whether the measure taken is effective or not is largely irrelevant.
Well said, my first early can start at 03.40 and jump the next day 0715 back to 4.28, 5.30, 4.14 then finish on a 08.55 that by the end of my 6 early shifts I’m hanging. And it’s a regular occurrence. Week of lates, back to early, rinse and repeat. Is it any wonder a few fall seriously ill or die soon after retirement?

I’m really against this. They won’t sort out the real issue and with cuts etc I can’t see that happening.
 
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100andthirty

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Interesting.

I'd say with Tramlink it was the wrong solution. The correct solution would have been something more ATP-esque to prevent a tram overspeeding or passing a signal at danger/red traffic light, and similarly a radar based system to stop a tram hitting another from behind in an area of "drive on sight" (as fitted to almost all new cars now). Probably it was cheaper?

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Kirkby should have been physically impossible with a proper active train control system, whether the driver was texting his mate or not.
(sorry if this has already been mentioned): Subsequent to the Guardian system, a form of speed control was fitted to the trams. Called Positive Prevention of Overspeeding it is designed to stop the tram if approaching very low speed curves and other risk-defined locations too fast. It was described here: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/tram-speed-protection/

It is not ATP, and the principle of operation of the Croydon trams is still line of sight. Having equipped all the trams with the equipment, other locations can be added comparatively cheaply. There is provision for active Radio Frequency Identification tags for use at tram signals, but no high risk locations were identified. Be aware that there is no real concept of an overlap beyond a tram signal, although I believe that passing a tram signal at danger is identified in the control room.
 
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Another issue not mentioned yet, How far does this camera go ??

More often than not we run into a loop etc, its a quick trip to the cab door to "water the buddlea",

Now i'm not shy by any means, but certainly could cause problems for our Sisters, and less brazen brothers
 

100andthirty

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Another issue not mentioned yet, How far does this camera go ??

More often than not we run into a loop etc, its a quick trip to the cab door to "water the buddlea",

Now i'm not shy by any means, but certainly could cause problems for our Sisters, and less brazen brothers
The Guardian camera captures head an shoulders only!
 

Bletchleyite

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Well said, my first early can start at 03.40 and jump the next day 0715 back to 4.28, 5.30, 4.14 then finish on a 08.55 that by the end of my 6 early shifts I’m hanging.

That's awful. I would be seriously fatigued if I had to work that.

Given that the same train service operates every weekday (mostly), why can't drivers have a week of the exact same timings? That would surely be best in terms of fatigue avoidance and also personal routine.
 

bengley

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That's awful. I would be seriously fatigued if I had to work that.

Given that the same train service operates every weekday (mostly), why can't drivers have a week of the exact same timings? That would surely be best in terms of fatigue avoidance and also personal routine.
They can. It's lazy computerized rostering.
 

43066

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Given that the same train service operates every weekday (mostly), why can't drivers have a week of the exact same timings? That would surely be best in terms of fatigue avoidance and also personal routine.

AIUI this was the basis of the whole “flexible rostering” dispute in the 80s!

It’s more efficient to have people booking on individually for the first train they’re going to work (minus a few mins book on time, walking time, time to open up the cab etc.) than to have everyone booking on at set start times and some doing nothing for an hour or more.

Mine are a little better than some at (roughly) clumping similar start times together, but you’ll still have big changes week on week eg finishing at 0100 Sunday morning after a Saturday late, and being expected back in at 0450 on the Monday morning, with the Sunday a “day off” !o_O
 
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357

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Regarding shift times, after many many years doing all different shifts I recently did the late turns only for some time. Within a few weeks I understood how much better I was feeling and how much healthier and less tired I was, even down to generally being in a better mood.

It had a huge affect that I didn't fully understand until I stopped doing shifts for a time
 

skyhigh

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Mine are a little better than some at (roughly) clumping similar start times together, but you’ll still have big changes week on week eg finishing at 0100 Sunday morning after a Saturday late, and being expected back in at 0450 on the Monday morning, with the Sunday a “day off” !o_O
I am very thankful we are not rostered that way as drivers at my TOC. It's still how guards are rostered though and is really an awful practice for an industry that claims to be aiming to reduce fatigue.
 

the sniper

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Regarding shift times, after many many years doing all different shifts I recently did the late turns only for some time. Within a few weeks I understood how much better I was feeling and how much healthier and less tired I was, even down to generally being in a better mood.

It had a huge affect that I didn't fully understand until I stopped doing shifts for a time

It surprises me that more people don't consider the benefits of this option, where possible. I think it'd be a career/life saver for some.
 

bengley

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I'd do permanent lates if it was an easy option at my place.
 

Bletchleyite

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AIUI this was the basis of the whole “flexible rostering” dispute in the 80s!

It’s more efficient to have people booking on individually for the first train they’re going to work (minus a few mins book on time, walking time, time to open up the cab etc.) than to have everyone booking on at set start times and some doing nothing for an hour or more.

I totally agree. But if a driver and guard book on for the 0711 Bletchley starter (or whatever it is now), why not have them work that (and indeed the same set of trains following it) daily for a week, so they don't have to change shift every single day? It's not like there's a different timetable on a Tuesday.

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I'd do permanent lates if it was an easy option at my place.

I'd rather do permanent anything (even something silly like 0200 book on) than changing daily or even weekly. You can properly adjust for it then. If people did want to swap round for variety it could be less frequent, e.g. once a month or something, with much more attention paid to fatigue avoidance.
 

bramling

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It surprises me that more people don't consider the benefits of this option, where possible. I think it'd be a career/life saver for some.

The problem with late turns is they totally screw up domestic life. They encourage rising comparatively late in the morning, and the result of that is having to then glance at the clock, especially if the book-on is in the early or mid afternoon.

Having said that, this suits some people very well indeed. And generally late turns are much more “chilled” than early turns, except for the well known issues with drunks.
 

the sniper

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I totally agree. But if a driver and guard book on for the 0711 Bletchley starter (or whatever it is now), why not have them work that (and indeed the same set of trains following it) daily for a week, so they don't have to change shift every single day? It's not like there's a different timetable on a Tuesday.

Personally I wouldn't recommend it, as doing the same diagram every day can be incredibly monotonous and wearisome. A week on a single bad diagram can be pretty soul destroying. But at an average size depot there will usually be more than one turn booking on around the same time, so just keeping roughly the same book on time would be for the best.

Guards and Drivers in some(/most?) TOCs won't follow the same diagrams, as Guards diagrams generally have worse/more intensive working due to less restrictive parameters and Drivers diagrams include Preps, ECS/taxi moves to depots/sidings ect, time where their Guard would be unproductive or wouldn't even be able to follow them.
 
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dctraindriver

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Personally I wouldn't recommend it, as doing the same diagram every day can be incredibly monotonous and wearisome. A week on a single bad diagram can be pretty soul destroying. But at an average size depot there will usually be more than one turn booking on around the same time, so just keeping roughly the same book on time would be for the best.

Guards and Drivers in some(/most?) TOCs won't follow the same diagrams, as Guards diagrams generally have worse/more intensive working due to less restrictive parameters and Drivers diagrams include Preps, ECS/taxi moves to depots/sidings ect, time where their Guard would be unproductive or wouldn't even be able to follow them.
As you say, working a week of the same diagram and it’s repetition isn’t good plus it can also it lead to incidents as come the end of the week when fatigued and weary while you should recognise something isn’t right but don’t it could lead to you making a mistake. Roughly the same start times that week would work well enough I think. But I guess that requires higher levels of staff so that’s not going to happen. And I prefer lates but swapping can be cumbersome.
 
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We’ve spoken about this big brother cam in our mess room a few times and the general consensus is it will be resisted as much as possible and like someone said further up the thread, sickness will be rife and it will definitely be an absolutely stupid idea to ever try and get the ball rolling with. I for one hate the very idea of it and hope Aslef get ahead of the curve and shoot it down.
 

boiledbeans2

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Many cars now have systems to detect a driver becoming less attentive. Some are very basic, while others have cameras that recognise particular faces (so you can customise seat and other settings) but I still don't think actually captures or saves video.

I am not sure what the car might record that could be interrogated in the event of an accident, but perhaps any additional safety system for a train can be designed so it can warn a driver in the cab but not actually do anything more. Maybe only a second or third warning will actually be recorded on the data recorder.

The driver can then decide if they really are tired or need to report that they're no longer fit for duty.

To give a parallel, in the automotive world, the driver drowsiness and attention warning (DDAW) systems is currently mandatory (since July 2022) for all new vehicle designs in the EU. I'm not sure of the UK still follows EU law though, but either way, it is now the norm for these systems to be installed in cars.

Regulation (EU) 2019/2144 of the European Parliament and of the Council mandates motor vehicles of categories M and N to be equipped with driver drowsiness and attention warning (DDAW) systems from 6 July 2022 for new types and from 7 July 2024 for all new vehicles. The DDAW is defined as a system that assesses the driver’s alertness through vehicle systems analysis and, where needed, provides a warning to the driver. In particular, DDAW must detect or recognise the driving and/or steering pattern symptomatic of a driver exhibiting reduced alertness due to fatigue, and interact with and alert the driver via the vehicle’s human-machine interface.
 

Facing Back

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357

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To give a parallel, in the automotive world, the driver drowsiness and attention warning (DDAW) systems is currently mandatory (since July 2022) for all new vehicle designs in the EU. I'm not sure of the UK still follows EU law though, but either way, it is now the norm for these systems to be installed in cars.

That footage doesn't go to managers who generally have a dislike of the driver grade though.

I think that's the main issue here, rather than trying to do something about fatigue.
 

43066

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I am very thankful we are not rostered that way as drivers at my TOC. It's still how guards are rostered though and is really an awful practice for an industry that claims to be aiming to reduce fatigue.

Yep it isn’t great. To the point where you find yourself trying to use annual leave to her around it, or swapping.

Most have agreements eg min 36 hours between finishing a late and starting an early, but we just have the min 12 hours. Doing an early shift (finishing at say 1100) and being back in later that same day for a night shift at 2330 has also been known to happen before!

The problem with late turns is they totally screw up domestic life. They encourage rising comparatively late in the morning, and the result of that is having to then glance at the clock, especially if the book-on is in the early or mid afternoon.

Having said that, this suits some people very well indeed. And generally late turns are much more “chilled” than early turns, except for the well known issues with drunks.

Absolutely. I don’t like earlies, but absolutely despise lates :lol:. That tends to mean I end up swapping earlies for the same relatively small number of all day turns (which are unpopular with most), and just having to suffer the lates I’m rostered. We have more earlies than lates, thankfully.
 

John1974

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We’ve spoken about this big brother cam in our mess room a few times and the general consensus is it will be resisted as much as possible and like someone said further up the thread, sickness will be rife and it will definitely be an absolutely stupid idea to ever try and get the ball rolling with. I for one hate the very idea of it and hope Aslef get ahead of the curve and shoot it down.
Looks like Aslef signed it off.

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That footage doesn't go to managers who generally have a dislike of the driver grade though.

I think that's the main issue here, rather than trying to do something about fatigue.
It would eventually you know. Getting this in is the first step. Once in they would use it for monitoring and assessments.
 

380101

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It would be ridiculous for ASLEF not to get involved in these trials. Just because they are agreeing to the trial does not mean they are supportive of the equipment being introduced across the industry. All info I've heard so far from fairly reliable sources is that ASLEF expect this trial to highlight what they've been campaigning about for years is that the shift patterns, diagram content and lengths are all major contributing factors towards fatigue and that this bit of technology will not improve that.

There's been much comment over the last few months in the media about rail unions "must modernise" etc when in fact the case is ASLEF and RMT are often at the forefront of trialling new technologies to make their members jobs/roles easier/more comfortable/less fatiguing.

The notion that ASLEF members will leave to join RMT is also fanciful as I've yet to see RMT bother their arse for any driver who was daft enough to join them in my TOC!

Looks like Aslef signed it off.

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If you read my earlier post quoted above, you will see why ASLEF have agreed to a trial of this technology with 3 companies on the mainline. To simply say "No" would be extremely damaging to the union and only play into the hands of the government and right wing media who wrongly accuse the railway unions of being against modernisation. ASLEF get involved in almost every trial of new technology whether they are against it or for it.
 

Bletchleyite

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That footage doesn't go to managers who generally have a dislike of the driver grade though.

I think that's the main issue here, rather than trying to do something about fatigue.

Agreed. I would have no issue with the vehicle doing this automatically without any sort of logging or reporting.

I would be concerned if this system involved recording audio and/or video to an insurance black box, for example, or even data for that matter, because people should not be doing important things with observations about my physical condition that are not corroborated by the assessment of a medical professional. In other words an IT system to assist me, by all means, but not one to dob me in for something I may or may not have done; such systems are too imperfect for that.

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It would eventually you know. Getting this in is the first step. Once in they would use it for monitoring and assessments.

And that's basically 100% of the problem I have with it.

Particularly as such software isn't perfect. To use a relevant example, the passport office's checking software rejected my last passport photo because I had my eyes closed. I didn't, I just don't have very big eyes. I had to faff about with an awkward process to override it if I recall. Thus I can see that, even if not fatigued, I'd be triggering something like this by the minutes.

In short I object in the most strong way possible to anything which involves "computer says no" being key to my continued employment in any form.
 

irish_rail

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If you read my earlier post quoted above, you will see why ASLEF have agreed to a trial of this technology with 3 companies on the mainline. To simply say "No" would be extremely damaging to the union and only play into the hands of the government and right wing media who wrongly accuse the railway unions of being against modernisation. ASLEF get involved in almost every trial of new technology whether they are against it or for it.
My concern is it will be a case of whatever the results of the trial are, the DFt (or whoever is pushing this money wasting crap) will present them as being a success. If they catch loads of drivers out its a success as those drivers are now off the road. But those drivers are now off driving duties indefinitely or have to be accommodated at great expense to tax payer. Its not as if there has been a fatal rail accident this century where a tired driver has been blamed. Vigilance and AWS are rather good at keeping us alert, tired or not!
 

Efini92

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Its not as if there has been a fatal rail accident this century where a tired driver has been blamed. Vigilance and AWS are rather good at keeping us alert, tired or not!
I think it’s more TPWS is good at catching us.
 

irish_rail

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I think it’s more TPWS is good at catching us.
Only if you let it get to that point! But overall there are countless safety systems in place to prevent drivers cocking up and this feels very much like someone trying to cook up a lucrative contract to fit out the entire UK fleet and make a vast sum of money in the process . Not that the Tories could ever be accused of doing anything like that!
 

12LDA28C

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Agreed. Fatigue is a systemic problem mostly resulting from things like badly designed shift patterns and...dare I say it...rest day working (plus the odd medical issue, e.g. that Chiltern-LU near miss was caused by the driver having undiagnosed obstructive sleep apnoea, which is a medical screening failure). If a driver is sitting in the cab dozing off, then that system has got gaps in it which need addressing.

Correction - the SPaD may well have been caused by the medical issue you mention but certainly not the near miss - this was a clear violation of the Rules which would have been prevented if the driver had responded appropriately to the tripcock activation.
 

Ashley Hill

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When OTMRs first appeared on our trains the drivers were told they would only be downloaded after an incident. Nowadays they are randomly downloaded as part of a drivers continuous assessment. This will happen with the cameras to randomly monitor cab discipline.
Also will the ones in the rear cab be permanently live? If so guards will be observed too!
 

John1974

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When OTMRs first appeared on our trains the drivers were told they would only be downloaded after an incident. Nowadays they are randomly downloaded as part of a drivers continuous assessment. This will happen with the cameras to randomly monitor cab discipline.
Also will the ones in the rear cab be permanently live? If so guards will be observed too!
Exactly this.
 
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