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Cambridge to King's Lynn Electrification - Gathering Resources

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edwin_m

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I thought it was to do with the fact that this line was originally electrified at 1.5KV DC.
Cambridge to Kings Lynn has never been any other voltage. As mentioned by various others, the main reason for double track portals is to reduce the forces where their bases are attached, either because of ground conditions or where they are fixed to viaducts.
 
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I think they were talking about the picture I'd posted of OLE of Wickford as an example of a halfway house between cantilever arms and portals. Some kind of wider commentary about OLE structures on bad ground conditions
 

kp_raileng

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UKPN published a series of regional development plans (rdp) but they are all probably 10 years old this is the link for all of them. One can hope that things haven't changed since then. RDP5 for Burwell Grid Supply Point is the region that includes Melton so I found this information, I'm not sure if this is really what you were looking for though.
View attachment 174251View attachment 174248Unfortunately, the RDP for the Kings Lynn area (#01 Walpole) does not mention the 132kV network at all. I don't why this is but it's exactly the same on the GEML side where Stowmarket FS is discussed but the smaller single feed at Norwich goes completely unmentioned; kinda interesting that the late '80s extensions of GEML and WAML/fen line wiring have very similar power design. A single supply FS nearby to the original extents of wiring (Ugley on WAML and Manningtree on GEML) followed by a full-size double supply FS at Stowmarket and Milton and then a (likely) low power single supply at each terminus.

For a general discussion, it's worth knowing about Network Rail's internal strategy for power supply going forward. Of course, it's not publicly available in any way other than being mentioned in this PWI video (
) for which they uploaded the slides. A few blurry images seem to suggest they might want new FSs on the branches at March, Whittlesea or Thetford.
Great thanks for the help. In any case, it's a good start to have some official information on MVA Ratings. Have seen the YouTube video and I agree it's a good start for thinking about modelling for future Load demands.
 

Transilien

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I think they were talking about the picture I'd posted of OLE of Wickford as an example of a halfway house between cantilever arms and portals. Some kind of wider commentary about OLE structures on bad ground conditions
Yes, I had thought that the main reason for the double track portals was the 1.5KV DC electrification on the Shenfield-Southend line.
 
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Great thanks for the help. In any case, it's a good start to have some official information on MVA Ratings. Have seen the YouTube video and I agree it's a good start for thinking about modelling for future Load demands.
I am a little curious to know what your project is though! Are you sketching what a potential power supply upgrade could look like for waml/fen line? Because if so I think it's worth considering the potential for the other lines to be electrified - mainly the felixstowe to Nuneaton corridor, and even the Breckland Line. Norfolk County Council's rail stratergy-ish of 2024 did actually mention electrifying that route. So capacity upgrades to the Fen line could be joined up with new lines-to-be-wired
 

GRALISTAIR

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I am a little curious to know what your project is though! Are you sketching what a potential power supply upgrade could look like for waml/fen line? Because if so I think it's worth considering the potential for the other lines to be electrified - mainly the Felixstowe to Nuneaton corridor, and even the Breckland Line. Norfolk County Council's rail strategy-ish of 2024 did actually mention electrifying that route. So capacity upgrades to the Fen line could be joined up with new lines-to-be-wired
Absolutely - a big +1 from me.
 
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It also would be awesome to have full emu services on ipswich-felixstowe, ipswich-cambridge, ipswich-peterborough. And with a XCML electrification including the minor line through Coleshill Parkway, Stansted to Birmingham would be full EMU too.

With this in mind, the walpole to burwell 400kV line goes quite near to Ely, so you could fit out all 5 lines with a much higher power connection from that point.
 

Steve Harris

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It also would be awesome to have full emu services on ipswich-felixstowe, ipswich-cambridge, ipswich-peterborough. And with a XCML electrification including the minor line through Coleshill Parkway, Stansted to Birmingham would be full EMU too.

With this in mind, the walpole to burwell 400kV line goes quite near to Ely, so you could fit out all 5 lines with a much higher power connection from that point.
Are you sure that it's a 400kV line ? As the document you quoted in post #27 states that it's only 132kV.
 

m0ffy

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Are you sure that it's a 400kV line ? As the document you quoted in post #27 states that it's only 132kV.
There are likely two 132 circuits and two 400 circuits. The 400kV circuits are likely to be direct (and part of National Grid’s transmission network), whereas the 132s will connect other bulk supply points en route.
 

Steve Harris

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There are likely two 132 circuits and two 400 circuits. The 400kV circuits are likely to be direct (and part of National Grid’s transmission network), whereas the 132s will connect other bulk supply points en route.
After finding another document (national grid, which is a lot clearer), the line is indeed 400kV (hence why I have now deleted my post). Burwell substation is 132kV after it's been transformered down from the national grid line.
 
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Yeah I was talking about a different pylon line ( the north/south Burwell 400kV to Walpole 400kV) for a new theoretical FS at Ely.

Milton FS is on a completely different east to west 132kV line. (Burwell 132kV to Little Barford 132kV)
 
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15/03
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Somewhat related, but what feeder station supplied the Royston Branch when it was extended to Shepreth Jnc in 1988? Was it an ECML one?
 

Magdalia

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Somewhat related, but what feeder station supplied the Royston Branch when it was extended to Shepreth Jnc in 1988? Was it an ECML one?
In all my years of travelling on electric trains across the branch I'd always assumed that the feed was at Litlington near Royston.

Until about 10 years ago, possibly coinciding with the grade separation at Hitchin, there was a neutral section on the curve just north of Cambridge Junction. Its removal was very welcome because it was so vulnerable to dewirements. That suggests to me that the branch wasn't fed from the ECML.

I'm guessing that there must be a new neutral section somewhere near the Hitchin end of the branch.

The neutral section south of Hitchin on the ECML was installed as part of the same changes.
 

Steve Harris

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In all my years of travelling on electric trains across the branch I'd always assumed that the feed was at Litlington near Royston.

Until about 10 years ago, possibly coinciding with the grade separation at Hitchin, there was a neutral section on the curve just north of Cambridge Junction. Its removal was very welcome because it was so vulnerable to dewirements. That suggests to me that the branch wasn't fed from the ECML.
I concur.

Litlington feeder can be clearly seen in this youtube video (at 37.17)
taken in 1989.
 
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I remember reading this post on an old thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lia-v-western-se-england.178865/#post-3899100) that says the branch is fed from Milton FS as far as Lillington MPTSC after which is it fed by "Hitchin". This seems fare enough, until I started investigating the ECML side of things, and it seems unlikely that there is or has ever been a feeder station at Hitchin. Of course @Bald Rick could have meant Hitchin as a MPTSC and it gets it's power from somewhere else. Probably Little Barford FS just up the line, or maybe Langley Jnc. FS. The ECML power supply upgrade thread does make mention (here) of classic feeder stations at Langley Jnc and Hitchin (both now removed), but I find it surprising that there would be two FS's so close to each other, and the fact that both have had neutral sections for so long makes it hard to tell if any of them were single-supply Tee feeders (like with Nene and Bretton). I often look at these 2014 documents from UKPN to try and backup where feeding locations are: but I've not seen any mention of 25kV substations at Hitchin, Langley/Stevenage or Lillington. They're not comprehensive documents however almost all the other FSs in the are are accounted for (Bretton, Nene, Little Barford, Welwyn, Wood Green, and on the other side; Milton, Ugley, Rye House, etc).

That suggests to me that the branch wasn't fed from the ECML.
Tracking the feeding arrangements by what neutral sections are where is often the only evidence out there, but I think on ECML there can be a lot of red herrings around. Consider the original GN electrification of 1976 which is small enough and old enough to feature in John Glover's book in quite a lot of detail. Here both sides of Bowes Park NS are normally fed from the same single supply of Wood Green, and how Potters Bar MPTSC was bypassed in normal feeding.
1742142770966.png
This diagram is just an reproduction of the BR document printed in Glover's book. I could take a picture of it but it would be quite hard to read when uploaded. The only additions I've made are the red feeding lines.
 

Bald Rick

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Of course @Bald Rick could have meant Hitchin as a MPTSC and it gets it's power from somewhere else.

Yes when I said Hitchin I meant the Hitchin end of the line; that wasn’t clear, apologies.

I swear we put a feeder in at Correy’s Mill north of Stevenagein about 2003, but could be wrong.
 
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I concur.

Litlington feeder can be clearly seen in this youtube video (at 37.17)
taken in 1989.
Probably some more interesting things to see on that cabride - thanks for posting.
However, I'm still sort of not convinced that Litlington was/is a feeder station. The list of neutral sections on http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/neutral.shtm says it's a TSC with a neutral section added in 2001. The grid positioning of it in relation to 132kV lines is a bit odd. Melbourne 132kV substation is literally just on the other side of Royston station - seems odd that they would put it at Litlington instead of there and have to bury a 25kV cable under the town, there's no overground power line visible to the substation either. Also it's because I have heard reference made to Litlington being a MPTSC by other people on a few occaisions on forums. But I understand that mistakes can propergate easily.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yes when I said Hitchin I meant the Hitchin end of the line; that wasn’t clear, apologies.

I swear we put a feeder in at Correy’s Mill north of Stevenagein about 2003, but could be wrong.
In the John Glover book there is vague mention of a Coreys Mill "substation" put in later on to help with Eurostar trains. But I think a good possible explanation is from this post:
1742143661275.png
So Langley Jnc are Hitchin had feeder stations - but they were both powered by cabling going to a 25kV switching station at Corey's Mill (where the DNO supply must have been). This does kinda explain why they're so close.

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I think the real question though, is what the situation was in 1988. Milton FS wouldn't be built until King's Lynn wiring in 1992 (or was it put in early in 1990 when Shelford OHNS was added?), Hithchin+Langley Jn+Coreys Mill didn't arrive until 2001. 2001 seems to be a big year with a new MPTSCs at Biggleswade, Hertford North, and Litlington. All these dates btw come from http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/neutral.shtm which is not completely infallable.
1742144886141.png
 
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Magdalia

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Melbourne 132kV substation is literally just on the other side of Royston station

The Melbourn substation is almost 3 miles beyond where the overhead line ended between 1978 and 1988, which was only just beyond Royston station, before the allotments next to where the cycle underpass now is.

MPTSC - what is that please?
 
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The Melbourn substation is almost 3 miles beyond where the overhead line ended between 1978 and 1988, which was only just beyond Royston station, before the allotments next to where the cycle underpass now is.

MPTSC - what is that please?
Oh indeed. I'm fairly certain that the Royston branch was only supplied by Welwyn from the original electrification in the late 1970s. As you can see on this diagram I've seen in a couple of books that is apparently some level of officialness:
1742163534257.png
(I made a more slimmed down reproduction of this in #45)
Interestingly, there's not even a normal intermediate Track Sectioning Cabin at Litlington at this point. That cabride video suggests there was one by 1988 of course, but it seems the neutral section was not added until 2001.
But by 1988 with wires extended to Cambridge, and northwards from Hitchin, there are more feeder stations around at Ugley and Little Barford. I don't think Litlington was ever one though. The situation from 2001 onwards makes sense with Milton Fen supplying the route through Shepreth MPTSC as far Litlington. On the other side of Litlington, it was from the (then new, now gone) Hitchin FS. What happened between 1988 and 2001 is what I'm unsure of.

PS: I would generally define a Mid-Point Track Sectioning Cabin as where two (or more) supply areas meet with switching capability between them. It's the only type of 25kV substation that has to have a neutral section associated with it by definition; feeder stations and (intermediate) TSCs may or may not. You can also sometimes find neutral sections resting in the OLE without an accompanying switching station (although they'll have manual or motorised isolator switches). One of the most important features of a railway substation (whether it happens to connect to the grid or anything else) is that it has circuit breakers capable of breaking fault currents and a main busbar that allows OLE circuits to be paralleled. Circuit breakers are also defined as being able to automatically react to an over current. A neutral section on its own with some switches doesn't have either of these so sort of isn't a substation.

There is also the mercurial TSS (track sectioning site) or TSL (track sectioning location), which may be the same as a TSC or a kind of half-way house which doesn't have circuit breakers fitted but has load-break isolator switches, which (as the name suggests) can break load current but not fault current and are so a lot cheaper and less involved than a circuit breaker. They're used in tandem with other circuit breakers in order to automatically isolate a faulty section while having to purchase and maintain fewer circuit breakers. But that's a more modern thing associated with new electrification schemes from the 2010s rather than anything BR did in the 20th C.
 

Magdalia

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I'm fairly certain that the Royston branch was only supplied by Welwyn from the original electrification in the late 1970s. As you can see on this diagram I've seen in a couple of books that is apparently some level of officialness:
One thing I quickly learned in years of historical research is that something in books isn't necessarily right.

I remember weekend isolations in the early 1980s with no power Welwyn Garden City-Hitchin, and class 312s dragged by diesels over that section, but then running with electric traction Hitchin-Royston. How could Welwyn feed Royston with no power between Welwyn and Hitchin?
 
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well that does certainly put a spanner in my works!

The trouble, of course, with the above (and undated) diagram is that it doesn't account for anything being added in a short while after the electric timetable begins. So if there's a Litlington FS, you'd expect some Hitchin OHNSs. The 1988 cab ride video above shows them just on the curve out of Hitchin. There is mention of the neutral section on the mainline being added in 1986 (specifically 28th July) which fits with the timeline of ECML energisations. The Hitchin flyover came into use in June 2013 which has a neutral section at the Royston end. The neutral sections on the flat junction curve is still there along with the one on the flyover according to the (publicly available) sectional appendix - though I am aware these are sometimes a bit out of date - but all the relevant pages say there are less than a year old.

The mainline OHNSs are said to be removed in September 2017 around a year after Corey's Mill neutral section was put into use south of Hitchin. This all makes sense with what we know about ECML PSU, and I presume the OHNSs on the branch and flyover remain so that Milton or Ugley can reach all the way to Hitchin in times of disruption.

I think if Litlington was a feeder station it would have been demoted to MPTSC in 2001 - as there is a decent amount of evidence as to what was going on after that point with new FSs at Hitchin and Langley Jnc, etc.
 

Steve Harris

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I wouldn't be so sure.

I didn't take that much notice regarding the feeding of the branch (other than knowing about the 2 neutral sections mentioned by magdalia and Litlington, which i used to see way before 1988 (when passing on the A505)). However I knew a lot of BR personnel in the 80's and early 1990's and I got told that there was limitations on how many units could use the branch at any one time (4 seems to ring a bell, but don't quote me on that, as my memory may be a little out). Hence the branch only ran 4 car trains for a number of years before, I'm guessing, the feeding station was upgraded/uprated (sometime in the 1990's?)
 
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Weakness in the supply is probably to do with the Anglia side of things. When Bishops Stortford to Cambridge wiring opened in 1987, I think it was all done off the single grid supply at Ugley (between Elsenham and Newport). I've heard a lot of talk about EMU length restrictions of the WAML until mysterious upgrades in the 2000s, and maybe even more in the 2010s to do with new Thameslink trains. So when Royston was connected to Shepreth, neither Ugley or Welwyn are especially good options as its quite a stretch for both (Welwyn - Shepreth is 34m 09c; Stansted (southern end of Ugley's area) to Hitchin + Cambridge is 42m 39c). Little Barford to Shepreth is 39m 10c, so it does definately seem logical to suggest there was another feeder at Litlington which would supply the whole branch from Hitchin to Shepreth of 21m 68c. It's worth noting the optimal feed length is apparently 18 miles.
I'm guessing, the feeding station was upgraded/uprated (sometime in the 1990's?)
In 1990 a neutral section was apparently added to the WAML at Shepreth branch which suggests that wiring was extended from Cambridge station to the feeder station at Milton. The wires went all the way to Kings Lynn in 1992. Milton to Hitchin is a somewhat more sensible 27m 70c. Also, it's been said that Milton was originally a single grid supply until about 15is years ago when it was upped to two transformers as part of Thameslink works. Is this true, the only evidence is highly anecdotal and doesn't really make sense if you look at all the available arial imagery of the site from 1999 onwards. It looks like it always had two transformers, maybe they were uprated in the 2010s. If there's a cabride video of a train to or from Kings Lynn from the 1990s or 2000s that might be quite informative.
 

Class 170101

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Milton had a limited supply before its upgrade in 2010s, I believe it was 5 EMUs north of Milton Fen.

Also only 4/8 car EMUs could operate between Hitchin and Shepreth Branch Jn until the same upgrade.
 
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What was that upgrade? Replacing the transformer(s) with a higher rated one, or adding a second grid-supply, or something else?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

=====
I think I can answer my own question here with the help of a handy document of UKPN's site from 2014.
1742241656573.png1742241727600.png

I think this document is saying UKPN want to replace on of the transformers mostly because it's old and failing, but that they anticipate NwR will want both replaced to service a bigger load. But at least from UKPN's perspective, one had to be replaced due to aging (see it in red in the diagram). Presumably the one from 1985 must have been repurposed from a past feeder station as Milton is, at the earliest, from 1990. I guess this also suggests that Milton had 2 transformers from the start.
1742242156494.png
 
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Magdalia

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Milton had a limited supply before its upgrade in 2010s, I believe it was 5 EMUs north of Milton Fen.

Also only 4/8 car EMUs could operate between Hitchin and Shepreth Branch Jn until the same upgrade.
The 1978 electrification had 8 car trains to Royston, and lots of them.

When Royston-Cambridge was electrified in 1988 I recall that there were restrictions north of Royston, but I can't remember the details.

There was a 9 day closure of Royston-Cambridge in 1999 but I can't remember if it involved any work on the electricals.

12 car trains south from Cambridge towards Kings Cross started in 2009.
 

thecrofter

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15/03
=======
Somewhat related, but what feeder station supplied the Royston Branch when it was extended to Shepreth Jnc in 1988? Was it an ECML one?
Don't know about the original arrangement but when I worked on the SCADA Project (Hornsey & Doncaster ECR's to York) back in 2001, Milton FS fed the Cambridge lines down to the Mid Point at Litlington and Hitchin FS (via Corey's Mill Switching Station as was) fed from the ECML up to Litlington.
 
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