Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[68000]

Probably meant getting through security

 

[47271]

I live in the central belt and Flying is WAY more hassle than the sleeper. For the first flight you have to be at the airport early to park (and pay through the nose to park the car), get through passport control (never quick, and getting slower) and the obligatory 45 mins before the flight sitting around. Add in 30 mins to the airport and 30 mins to get up and ready. After that, get into the city but only the expensive airlines fly to London City. Go cheap and you're an hour getting in from Stansted / Luton / Gatwick / Heathrow. For me, impossible to get into London for a 9am meeting. 10 is just about achievable.

v

Leave home late, get the sleeper, arrive Euston before 7am, leisurely breakfast on the train, shower, miss the madness on the tube and be anywhere for 8.30 without any rush.

No competition.
Getting back is worse. Flying means being out of the city by 6pm - no later than the late day-train really. If you want to do anything in the evening, work late or drinks and dinner, Sleeper is the only way. Back at Euston 11pm, train, bed. Done.

Maybe I just don't like getting up very early and rushing around. Even the 1st class ticket is well worth the absence of hassle and certainly no more expensive than going down the night before and getting a hotel.

If it helps, I ran a similar analysis in another thread on a recent flight I made from Edinburgh to Gatwick...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3099922

 

[paul1609]

If it helps, I ran a similar analysis in another thread on a recent flight I made from Edinburgh to Gatwick...

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3099922

All I can say is that on all my trips on the sleeper I just don't meet the market you are describing. The west highland is all tourist as far as I can see. Whilst I often meet interesting people in the lounge car they will be typically be American Tourists on a once off trip. I never meet people who I could recognise as regular travellers. This is also largely so on the lowland especially in the Edinburgh portion. Glasgow does seem to have some business travel especially on a Thursday evening. Its also the only lounge car that Ive seen restricted to first class only. Clearly there must be places in the highlands from which its a very convenient service but that market must be minuscule. I wonder how many flexipass tickets are actually sold in a year?
As for flying most of the problems you describe just don't exist. like most regulars I check in on line with only cabin baggage. The only airport that I can remember queuing for security for more than 5 mins in on a domestic flight in the last year was admittedly Edinburgh but it is the exception rather than the norm.

 

[47271]

All I can say is that on all my trips on the sleeper I just don't meet the market you are describing. The west highland is all tourist as far as I can see. Whilst I often meet interesting people in the lounge car they will be typically be American Tourists on a once off trip. I never meet people who I could recognise as regular travellers. This is also largely so on the lowland especially in the Edinburgh portion. Glasgow does seem to have some business travel especially on a Thursday evening. Its also the only lounge car that Ive seen restricted to first class only. Clearly there must be places in the highlands from which its a very convenient service but that market must be minuscule. I wonder how many flexipass tickets are actually sold in a year?
As for flying most of the problems you describe just don't exist. like most regulars I check in on line with only cabin baggage. The only airport that I can remember queuing for security for more than 5 mins in on a domestic flight in the last year was admittedly Edinburgh but it is the exception rather than the norm.

All of what you say is totally reasonable - what works for one person isn't right for another, and I agree that my recent flight experience was an unusually slow and frustrating one.

The heavy Flexipass use I have personal knowledge of is to and from Inverness, Aviemore, Kingussie, Blair Atholl, Pitlochry, Dunkeld and Perth. I know a few weekly regulars, some of whom make 60-70 single journeys per year. I don't know about other routes, it just so happens that I live on the HML and know quite a few people up and down the line.

 

[TimboM]

I suspect it only makes up a minority of travellers - although possibly a sizeable one, but these recurring debates about taking the Sleeper vs flying seem to miss out the people who are either petrified of flying and will avoid it at all costs, or not very keen on it and will avoid plane travel if at all possible.

I previously worked at a company with fairly regular Central Belt<->London travel requirements and a good few of my colleagues took the Sleeper as they did not like flying - so the "competition" for them was really a 6-7 hour (at least!) drive down the M74/M6/M1 and back, meaning a day in London would otherwise need a day's travel either side (vs none with the Sleeper).

Aside from those who dislike flying some also don't like the whole hassle of getting to the airport (usually located out of the city centre); parking/taxi; security; queues; what size bags you can have; general hassle and faff... With the Sleeper you (broadly speaking) just turn up with whatever bag you want with whatever you want in it and get on...

 

[Blindtraveler]

I must admit that I would, if someone else was paying choose the sleaper over day train or air, something which would not have been the case 5 or so years back but with the liquid restrictions, longer security cues and various other bits of faf/hassle the London Scotland flight has lost much of its appeal for me and now I only do it on grounds of cost as the time element has been largely irradicated by heightened security and longer hanging around time enforced by airlines as a result.

 

[BRX]

All I can say is that on all my trips on the sleeper I just don't meet the market you are describing. The west highland is all tourist as far as I can see.

I think the West Highland sleeper is a bit unlike all the other ones. In fact it's completely unlike any other train in the UK!

The atmosphere in the lounge car on the Inverness train is notably different to the Fort William one, with an obviously larger proportion of business travellers. I never use the lowland ones.

That said, I have often met/seen people travelling for work on the Fort William train, although they are less likely to be the "executive" types. This summer there was a chap travelling to conduct a hedgehog survey...

 

[leightonbd]

Probably meant getting through security

Yes, the security experience at Edinburgh is truly dire. So many of the recent airport 'improvements' do nothing for the traveller. Never mind 'how long' - it is 'how' that makes me favour the train, day or night.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Seconded on the so called improvements at EDI, a real shambles of a setup now compared to 5 years ago.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I live in the central belt and Flying is WAY more hassle than the sleeper. For the first flight you have to be at the airport early to park (and pay through the nose to park the car), get through passport control (never quick, and getting slower) and the obligatory 45 mins before the flight sitting around. Add in 30 mins to the airport and 30 mins to get up and ready. After that, get into the city but only the expensive airlines fly to London City. Go cheap and you're an hour getting in from Stansted / Luton / Gatwick / Heathrow. For me, impossible to get into London for a 9am meeting. 10 is just about achievable.

v

Leave home late, get the sleeper, arrive Euston before 7am, leisurely breakfast on the train, shower, miss the madness on the tube and be anywhere for 8.30 without any rush.

No competition.
Getting back is worse. Flying means being out of the city by 6pm - no later than the late day-train really. If you want to do anything in the evening, work late or drinks and dinner, Sleeper is the only way. Back at Euston 11pm, train, bed. Done.

Maybe I just don't like getting up very early and rushing around. Even the 1st class ticket is well worth the absence of hassle and certainly no more expensive than going down the night before and getting a hotel.

(My bold) Bang on - even for leisure travel. I have tried it both ways, and for lack of hassle, the sleeper has it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(My bold) Bang on - even for leisure travel. I have tried it both ways, and for lack of hassle, the sleeper has it.

A tourist rather than a work thing, but the Sleeper is the ONLY way for a Londoner to have a full weekend on Ben Nevis and surrounds without taking a day off work or some very dangerous overnight driving. It isn't sensibly possible by any other mode of transport, even air.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Sleaper management would be celibrating at the number of us claiming their service, whilst expensive is convenient. The foalk at the .com airlines might be left crying into their warm drinks trolley beers though!

In all seriousness though, if Air has losts its Mojo and the train is easier if nothing else for the hassle factor, why were we told so often and so loudly that the service is such a loss maker? Is the good performance of the HML and Glasgow business markets being overshaddowed by the shear amount of Highland air being transported around by the WHL service for 8.5/9 months of the year?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all seriousness though, if Air has losts its Mojo and the train is easier if nothing else for the hassle factor, why were we told so often and so loudly that the service is such a loss maker? Is the good performance of the HML and Glasgow business markets being overshaddowed by the shear amount of Highland air being transported around by the WHL service for 8.5/9 months of the year?

Is it simply that a train with somewhere between 8 and 16 people per coach will never make money? That would be a very low loading for even a rural DMU service with just a driver and guard (no stewards etc), and would certainly be a financial basket case.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst there is clearly a market, it is not a big one, on a service that costs a lot of money to run. (I write as some who used to work in the Sleeper 'back office).

There are broadly three markets:

1) tourists who will make the trip very occasionally. Typically these are people going away to Scotland and using the sleeper for one leg of the journey for the experience. Price is becoming less of an issue, as it is part of the holiday experience.

2) regulars, who might make the trip a dozen times a year. A few may use it weekly. Typically these are people based in Scotland, from locations close to the sleeper routes, who need to get to London for business. Many, but by no means all, are paying for this journey themselves. This is a relatively small group of people, and a very small part of the Scottish travelling public. Price is an issue to some, but not others.

3) occasional business travellers, almost exclusively paid for on expenses.

In the last 10 years, in my experience, tourism has increased, the number of regulars is about the same, and 'occasional business' has decreased. The latter partly because of expense policies (particularly in the civil service) and partly because of vastly improved domestic flight options, both in terms of number and price.

I am fortunate enough to get the sleeper for free, and yet whenever I go to Scotland, be it for work or pleasure (normally 2-3 times a year), I will go by day train or fly. The sleeper is extremely uncomfortable for me - I just don't sleep properly. Far from being 'an efficient use of time', it means I have a to hang around waiting for it in the evening, then spend most of the next day trying to keep myself awake. Even where a flight and hotel is more expensive (and it rarely is if you book more than a week out) I would still rather do it. And I'm not the only one. I know a number of people who live in Scotland, with free travel, who have to go to London for various reasons, and they all fly or use the day train. Indeed I don't know anyone who uses the sleeper at all except as part of an occasional holiday experience.

The fact that there are approx 200 sleeper berths in each direction from London to Scotland a day compared to about 20,000 seats in the air does rather show the relative attractiveness of the options to the wider market.

Nevertheless I have promised myself to give it another chance next year when the new coaches come into service.

So, yes there is a market for it - not a big one - and leisure will increasingly become more important. In my view this means prices will go up, particularly at busier times. Even then, the sleeper operation as a whole will require a very large subsidy for each passenger.

 

[TimboM]

Is it simply that a train with somewhere between 8 and 16 people per coach will never make money? That would be a very low loading for even a rural DMU service with just a driver and guard (no stewards etc), and would certainly be a financial basket case.

That's pretty much the case - and on top of that it's a labour-intensive service compared to any other I can think of...

There's a host per every 2 sleeper cars, others serving the lounge, guards, multiple locos, multiple drivers, shunting etc. - all exacerbated with the trains splitting 2 or 3 ways. And then in the daytime there are 4 sets of 16 coaches (not to mention the spares/Fort Bill day coaches) including 48 sleeper cars all needing to be cleaned, prepped, change the bed linen etc. - and patched-up these days. On top of that about a dozen locos to ensure are ready for action... all ready to go again each night six nights a week.

Compare this to something like an HST or Pendolino in terms of how much cleaning/prep time it requires and how many passengers it'll carry all day, with significantly less staff per passenger.

 

[Bald Rick]

A tourist rather than a work thing, but the Sleeper is the ONLY way for a Londoner to have a full weekend on Ben Nevis and surrounds without taking a day off work or some very dangerous overnight driving. It isn't sensibly possible by any other mode of transport, even air.

Sorry but that's nonsense.

Last year I left work in London at 1600 on a Friday, got the 1630 from Euston, worked on the train until Gretna before cracking open a couple of beers. Late dinner and leisurely drinks in Glasgow with a friend, met more friends at a hotel on the NW outskirts of Glasgow around closing time. We were on Ben Nevis by 0900 the next morning, and bagged Carn Mor Dearg, Aonach Beag and Aonach Mor before getting to our hotel in Fort William for dinner. Sunday we bagged half the Ring of Steall, left Glen Nevis at 1700, was on the 2055 flight from Glasgow to Luton, and in my bed at home by 2300. Back at work Monday a little stiff but otherwise fresh as a proverbial.

Also, two comfortable nights in hotels, flight and half share of car hire cost less than sleeper one way.

 

[tsr]

By contrast, as many will know, I have done journeys such as my dash back from the outskirts of the Isle of Rhum to [station somewhere in mid-Surrey], with the Sleeper as the dominant public transport leg. I seriously doubt anything could have gone as smoothly as the way I did it; walked across the island, half an hour's wait for the ferry, then a series of absolutely doable 10-15 minute connections, with through ticketing all the way to my local station, hundreds of miles away. Had the Sleeper not existed, it would have been another day spent in the Fort William area, a less pleasant view over dinner compared to rolling along a highland railway watching the sun set over the mountains, and frankly a less interesting 24 hours.

 

[Bald Rick]

By contrast, as many will know, I have done journeys such as my dash back from the outskirts of the Isle of Rhum to [station somewhere in mid-Surrey], with the Sleeper as the dominant public transport leg. I seriously doubt anything could have gone as smoothly as the way I did it; walked across the island, half an hour's wait for the ferry, then a series of absolutely doable 10-15 minute connections, with through ticketing all the way to my local station, hundreds of miles away. Had the Sleeper not existed, it would have been another day spent in the Fort William area, a less pleasant view over dinner compared to rolling along a highland railway watching the sun set over the mountains, and frankly a less interesting 24 hours.

Perfect example of my category (1)!

 

[Fishplate84]

That's pretty much the case - and on top of that it's a labour-intensive service compared to any other I can think of...

There's a host per every 2 sleeper cars, others serving the lounge, guards, multiple locos, multiple drivers, shunting etc. - all exacerbated with the trains splitting 2 or 3 ways. And then in the daytime there are 4 sets of 16 coaches (not to mention the spares/Fort Bill day coaches) including 48 sleeper cars all needing to be cleaned, prepped, change the bed linen etc. - and patched-up these days. On top of that about a dozen locos to ensure are ready for action... all ready to go again each night six nights a week.

Compare this to something like an HST or Pendolino in terms of how much cleaning/prep time it requires and how many passengers it'll carry all day, with significantly less staff per passenger.

Yet despite this very obvious reality there are plenty of people who think it's terrible that the prices have been creeping up.
Transport Scotland pays very handsomely for the luxury of keeping this service alive, subsidising every traveller by a vast amount compared to any other rail service. They have to be admired for standing by it as any rational evaluation would have killed it off long ago. But I don't blame them if they have bought into a solution that takes it from niche bargain berth low cost run at minimal cost and see that it's long term future can only be secure and affordable by taking it into higher value markets. If filling it full of high paying tourists is the only way of sustaining it, it has to be preferable to letting it wither and die by a thousand cuts. The last few years with first group were dire and you could tell they were trying to run it a lowest possible cost. Every aspect of it was mediocre at best.

 

[TimboM]

Yet despite this very obvious reality there are plenty of people who think it's terrible that the prices have been creeping up.
Transport Scotland pays very handsomely for the luxury of keeping this service alive, subsidising every traveller by a vast amount compared to any other rail service. They have to be admired for standing by it as any rational evaluation would have killed it off long ago. But I don't blame them if they have bought into a solution that takes it from niche bargain berth low cost run at minimal cost and see that it's long term future can only be secure and affordable by taking it into higher value markets. If filling it full of high paying tourists is the only way of sustaining it, it has to be preferable to letting it wither and die by a thousand cuts. The last few years with first group were dire and you could tell they were trying to run it a lowest possible cost. Every aspect of it was mediocre at best.

In the interest of balance, the DfT also heavily subsidise the service as well as Transport Scotland, but that's splitting hairs really - it's all HM Government, aka the taxpayer either way... and it's to the tune of several millions.

In the austere times will live in, I can only assume (hope?) that despite it appearing a luxury, there have been some calculations that the investment is justified when taking into account the additional benefits it provides such as maintaining jobs and knock-on tourism business in Scotland. Or is it just that the MPs/MSPs who decide these things like travelling on it

 

[tsr]

Perfect example of my category (1)!

Sort of. But I was largely in your shoes, in terms of both types of activities and the tightness of timing - just with a longer duration that I wished to spend in the West Highlands and Small Isles. The plane or car does not compete well with many of the destinations on the Fort Bill sleeper, and in some cases it absolutely can't. This would apply irrespective of the market being catered for - for goodness' sake, Corrour and Rannoch get at least part of their food supplies by train (or certainly was until recently)!

 

[47271]

Sorry but that's nonsense.

Last year I left work in London at 1600 on a Friday, got the 1630 from Euston, worked on the train until Gretna before cracking open a couple of beers. Late dinner and leisurely drinks in Glasgow with a friend, met more friends at a hotel on the NW outskirts of Glasgow around closing time. We were on Ben Nevis by 0900 the next morning, and bagged Carn Mor Dearg, Aonach Beag and Aonach Mor before getting to our hotel in Fort William for dinner. Sunday we bagged half the Ring of Steall, left Glen Nevis at 1700, was on the 2055 flight from Glasgow to Luton, and in my bed at home by 2300. Back at work Monday a little stiff but otherwise fresh as a proverbial.

Also, two comfortable nights in hotels, flight and half share of car hire cost less than sleeper one way.

Never trust a Munro bagger's obsessive compulsive view of the world, we snigger at their herd instinct here on Speyside. There are many other tops under 3000' to explore, many of which can be reached by sleeper by simply walking straight out of the station. Can I recommend Perthshire?

Only joking...

 

[Scotrail84]

1S26 delayed.

 

[Blindtraveler]

oh dear, whats up?

 

[Scotrail84]

oh dear, whats up?

2 coaches knocked off at Euston by the guard due to a main res pipe problem. Loco then dragged the coaches to wembley before coming back to work 1S26 north.

 

[TimboM]

2 coaches knocked off at Euston by the guard due to a main res pipe problem. Loco then dragged the coaches to wembley before coming back to work 1S26 north.

Departed "only" 32 Late after all that which isn't too bad considering. A 90 with 2 fewer coaches should make that up no problem.

I hope all the displaced passengers were accommodated elsewhere OK.

 

[High Dyke]

Yet another night and more problems with the stock. I'm still not filled with confidence for my trip on the service next week.

 

[Scotrail84]

Departed "only" 32 Late after all that which isn't too bad considering. A 90 with 2 fewer coaches should make that up no problem.

I hope all the displaced passengers were accommodated elsewhere OK.

Yes, the guards and drivers done well.
Both coaches had zero bookings.

Now 20 early.

 

[Scotrail84]

Yet another night and more problems with the stock. I'm still not filled with confidence for my trip on the service next week.

No more prone to failures than dmus or emus.

 

[47271]

I know, how many times do we have to say this?!

CS is no more or less reliable than any other TOC.

The reason that it seems otherwise on this forum is because its every move and twitch is pored over in tiny detail.

Noone's going to post on the Scotrail thread that there was a problem with one of the 170s on the 1800 Queen Street-Edinburgh last night and it had to run with three coaches. Well, they might, but I doubt if anyone else would pay much attention.

Before anyone takes me literally and says anything, I've no idea whether or not the 1800 ran short last night!