Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[TimboM]

I know, how many times do we have to say this?!

CS is no more or less reliable than any other TOC.

The reason that it seems otherwise on this forum is because its every move and twitch is pored over in tiny detail.

Noone's going to post on the Scotrail thread that there was a problem with one of the 170s on the 1800 Queen Street-Edinburgh last night and it had to run with three coaches. Well, they might, but I doubt if anyone else would pay much attention.

Before anyone takes me literally and says anything, I've no idea whether or not the 1800 ran short last night!

Agreed. If anything last night was (another) example of the effort and ingenuity the CS/GBRf folks (with assistance from others) go to to get the trains to where they need to be as on time as possible with as little impact to passengers as possible.

No one had to be moved on 1S26 last night and it arrived bang on time at Glasgow and Edinburgh. Can't ask for much more really (other than perhaps a smarter loco ).

 

[route101]

Yes, the guards and drivers done well.
Both coaches had zero bookings.

Now 20 early.

Zero bookings at this time of year ? That surprises me

 

[LeylandLen]

Dont forget the Highlander also calls at Crewe and Preston to pick up/ set down. I do not know what the loadings to/ from these stations. They might be compulsory stops for operating reasons. I live near Preston and hope to use it to/from Fort William soon.I presume (hope???) a good number of passengers use these two stops. I have driven to north Scotland before so know the M6/M74/A9etc .

 

[gsnedders]

Dont forget the Highlander also calls at Crewe and Preston to pick up/ set down. I do not know what the loadings to/ from these stations. They might be compulsory stops for operating reasons. I live near Preston and hope to use it to/from Fort William soon.I presume (hope???) a good number of passengers use these two stops. I have driven to north Scotland before so know the M6/M74/A9etc .

AFAIK, at least one of them is a driver change.

 

[TimboM]

Dont forget the Highlander also calls at Crewe and Preston to pick up/ set down. I do not know what the loadings to/ from these stations. They might be compulsory stops for operating reasons. I live near Preston and hope to use it to/from Fort William soon.I presume (hope???) a good number of passengers use these two stops. I have driven to north Scotland before so know the M6/M74/A9etc .

AFAIK, at least one of them is a driver change.

Driver change is at Preston.

Usually seems a reasonable number of folk boarding at Crewe - it's still just about sociable (23:50 departure). Doubt it'd make or break the business case though.

 

[Scotrail84]

Dont forget the Highlander also calls at Crewe and Preston to pick up/ set down. I do not know what the loadings to/ from these stations. They might be compulsory stops for operating reasons. I live near Preston and hope to use it to/from Fort William soon.I presume (hope???) a good number of passengers use these two stops. I have driven to north Scotland before so know the M6/M74/A9etc .

AFAIK, at least one of them is a driver change.

Driver change is at Preston.

Usually seems a reasonable number of folk boarding at Crewe - it's still just about sociable (23:50 departure). Doubt it'd make or break the business case though.

Driver change is indeed Preston however 1S25 picks up at Preston as well as Crewe, 1S26 is a driver change only at Preston both North and Southbound.

 

[Scotrail84]

Zero bookings at this time of year ? That surprises me

Monday nights Northbound are quiet out of season, it will be quieter until the run up to Xmas now.

 

[InOban]

From previous posts, the crew swap at Preston. The Crewe stop lets people from the West Midlands join it. My daughter came home from Birmingham that way.

 

[Scotrail84]

From previous posts, the crew swap at Preston. The Crewe stop lets people from the West Midlands join it. My daughter came home from Birmingham that way.

The Northbound Highlander picks up at Preston and the Southbound Highlander sets down at Preston, as well as having a driver change both directions.

 

[ejstubbs]

Seconded on the so called improvements at EDI, a real shambles of a setup now compared to 5 years ago.

I'm going to disagree with that. I find the new security setup accessed by going straight on at the top of the escalator pretty good, and certainly better managed than the old security area accessed by turning back on yourself and going past Smiths, Books Etc etc. The multiple tray loading and unloading points for each gate generally make things run more smoothly, and there's usually someone around to help direct people. It does jam up a bit when you get someone at the head of the queue who doesn't realise that you can go to any free tray loading point ie you won't be 'jumping the queue' - politeness taken to a thoroughly impractical extreme.

I would agree that the "duty free experience" between the new security area and actual departure area is a PITA, though.

That said, I still prefer to take the train rather than fly. My usual journey is EDB to SVG, to visit folks in Harpenden. Luton airport is a stone's throw from their place but the pick up and drop off arrangements there are even worse than at Edinburgh (hard to believe, I know) and, contrary to the reported experiences of others on this thread, I've not found Easyjet usefully, if at all, cheaper than the train. The same goes for travel in to central London. Yes, it takes longer - even taking the lead time you have to allow yourself at the airport in to account - but the reduced hassle and (usually) more relaxing surroundings of the train weight the balance back in its favour for me.

 

[Bald Rick]

That said, I still prefer to take the train rather than fly. My usual journey is EDI to SVG, to visit folks in Harpenden. Luton airport is a stone's throw from their place but the pick up and drop off arrangements there are even worse than at Edinburgh (hard to believe, I know) and, contrary to the reported experiences of others on this thread, I've not found Easyjet usefully, if at all, cheaper than the train. The same goes for travel in to central London. Yes, it takes longer - even taking the lead time you have to allow yourself at the airport in to account - but the reduced hassle and (usually) more relaxing surroundings of the train weight the balance back in its favour for me.

The thing about Easyjet being cheaper is comparing it to the Sleeper. It is broadly comparable to the day train for Edinburgh - London; eg a one way ticket this coming Friday pm is in the £45-£70 range by train, and £45-£65 by Easyjet to Luton. (Remarkable prices, really.)

Quick question for you though - when the new shuttle from Luton airport to Parkway opens - taking 3 minutes, would you be more likely to fly? Much easier to get to Harpenden either by train, or with the simple pick up / set down at Parkway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Never trust a Munro bagger's obsessive compulsive view of the world, we snigger at their herd instinct here on Speyside. There are many other tops under 3000' to explore, many of which can be reached by sleeper by simply walking straight out of the station. Can I recommend Perthshire?

Only joking...

Did a fair bit in Perthshire this year and 2 years ago. By car obvs (rented at Edinburgh)

 

[dcsprior]

I'm going to disagree with that. I find the new security setup accessed by going straight on at the top of the escalator pretty good, and certainly better managed than the old security area accessed by turning back on yourself and going past Smiths, Books Etc etc. The multiple tray loading and unloading points for each gate generally make things run more smoothly, and there's usually someone around to help direct people. It does jam up a bit when you get someone at the head of the queue who doesn't realise that you can go to any free tray loading point ie you won't be 'jumping the queue' - politeness taken to a thoroughly impractical extreme.

I would agree that the "duty free experience" between the new security area and actual departure area is a PITA, though.

I find the total time from top of the escalator to departure lounge to be noticeably more with the new security arrangements; and that's without the additional time from stepping out of a taxi to reaching the escalator.

The tray arrangement works well in theory, but the problem in practice is that instead of everyone waiting the same time, the time you wait is very much dependent on how slow/disorganised the person who you're directed to stand behind is.

That said, I still prefer to take the train rather than fly.

I did too, when I could pay EC £110 return in 1st on the 05:40 southbound on a Tuesday morning, and the 17:00 or 18:00 on a Thursday evening, with reward points that took almost a quarter off that price in reality. They became dearer just before Virgin took over, and then dearer again. Occasionally VTEC may be decently priced, but the airlines are very good at encouraging their regular(ish) customers to use them every week - whether by discounts and earned perks with BA or similar, or paid-for benefits like I buy into with easyJet plus and Priority Pass.

 

[Northhighland]

All I can say is that on all my trips on the sleeper I just don't meet the market you are describing. The west highland is all tourist as far as I can see. Whilst I often meet interesting people in the lounge car they will be typically be American Tourists on a once off trip. I never meet people who I could recognise as regular travellers. This is also largely so on the lowland especially in the Edinburgh portion. Glasgow does seem to have some business travel especially on a Thursday evening. Its also the only lounge car that Ive seen restricted to first class only. Clearly there must be places in the highlands from which its a very convenient service but that market must be minuscule. I wonder how many flexipass tickets are actually sold in a year?
As for flying most of the problems you describe just don't exist. like most regulars I check in on line with only cabin baggage. The only airport that I can remember queuing for security for more than 5 mins in on a domestic flight in the last year was admittedly Edinburgh but it is the exception rather than the norm.

My experience is the Sleeper to Inverness does have regular business travel. I do find it the best way to get a full daywork in London and get a decent place to work when travelling. The lounge at Euston is also better than a Airport any day.

When you take your productive time into account then the sleeper is the way to go. However I would agree the flights have much more business travel. Many people are put off by the cost of the Sleeper. Also far more people would prefer to Fly than take the train. Don't see why but that is a reality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dont forget the Highlander also calls at Crewe and Preston to pick up/ set down. I do not know what the loadings to/ from these stations. They might be compulsory stops for operating reasons. I live near Preston and hope to use it to/from Fort William soon.I presume (hope???) a good number of passengers use these two stops. I have driven to north Scotland before so know the M6/M74/A9etc .

I've joined it at Crewe a couple of times and there have been a number boarding. A few at Preston as well.

 

[ejstubbs]

Quick question for you though - when the new shuttle from Luton airport to Parkway opens - taking 3 minutes, would you be more likely to fly? Much easier to get to Harpenden either by train, or with the simple pick up / set down at Parkway.

I've used the current bus shuttle a few times and not found it nearly as appalling as the recent "Luton is the UK's worst airport" media stories seem to have suggested. Mind you, I quite like buses, so long as they're not overcrowded (see also: trains) whereas I know some people seem to regard having to take a bus as being some kind of personal affront (perhaps they believe the quote commonly mis-attributed to Margaret Thatcher: "A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.") That said, I do generally agree that Luton Airport itself is a ghastly hole (which perhaps adds to the appeal of the bus, since it takes you away from the airport!)

I don't think the bus shuttle makes much odds to my onward journey time, but the proposed transit system might save 10 minutes or so. There's little doubt that dropping off and picking up from the parkway station is a much better arrangement for whichever relative otherwise has to drive round the houses to get to the airport, and then negotiate the confusing, ever-changing and poorly signposted network of roadways within the airport itself (not to mention the extortionate charge for using the pick-up area). Mind you, if they build the transit system and the parkway becomes more popular, who's to say that won't eventually become over-busy?

As it happens, though, the issue is likely to cease to bother me either way quite soon, assuming my folks succeed in their aim of relocating to Oxfordshire. (Anyone like to suggest the best way to get from Edinburgh to Fairford by rail?)

 

[paul1609]

The thing about Easyjet being cheaper is comparing it to the Sleeper. It is broadly comparable to the day train for Edinburgh - London; eg a one way ticket this coming Friday pm is in the £45-£70 range by train, and £45-£65 by Easyjet to Luton. (Remarkable prices, really.)

Quick question for you though - when the new shuttle from Luton airport to Parkway opens - taking 3 minutes, would you be more likely to fly? Much easier to get to Harpenden either by train, or with the simple pick up / set down at Parkway.

Ive just booked my weekend commute to Romney Marsh from Garelochead next weekend 14-17 Sept. Easyjet 19.00 south from Glasgow, last flight back, 3 days Astra car hire total £84.20 fuel £25 ish
Sleeper Advance £380 plus London to Rye and taxis.
Off peak Return £168 plus taxis
If its coming out of your own pocket its a bit of a no-brainer

 

[farci]

I know, how many times do we have to say this?! CS is no more or less reliable than any other TOC.

I'm not a rail professional but is 73% on time as good as other TOCs?
https://www.sleeper.scot/images/Performance/TrainPerformanceP12017-18.pdf

 

[bb21]

73% right time is very good, compared to other TOCs across the industry.

 

[najaB]

73% right time is very good, compared to other TOCs across the industry.

Especially considering the disproportionate impact that a single service has on the percentages. For Virgin, one late arrival into Euston represents 0.6% of the day's services. For CS, one late arrival into Euston represents 50% of the day's services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Especially considering the disproportionate impact that a single service has on the percentages. For Virgin, one late arrival into Euston represents 0.6% of the day's services. For CS, one late arrival into Euston represents 50% of the day's services.

There is also, of course, a disproportionate effect on passengers, which means a need to pay more attention to not getting it wrong. A lost night's sleep may mean the day is useless, or not arriving until the first day train may cause the journey to be a waste of time. Whereas even if VT were to cancel 50% of their service most people would still be able to do what they wanted, albeit with maybe an hour's delay and an overcrowded journey.

 

[Maxfly]

I'm not a rail professional but is 73% on time as good as other TOCs?
https://www.sleeper.scot/images/Performance/TrainPerformanceP12017-18.pdf

Last period was 97% approx, moving annual average about 87%, this period is in the 90's percentage wise also I believe. Better to take a broader picture when looking at this sort of thing.
Was the sleeper not the best performing franchising recently?

 

[bb21]

For CS, one late arrival into Euston represents 50% of the day's services.

10%.

 

[najaB]

10%.

I thought someone would pick up on that - I meant 50% of the day's services arriving at Euston. I wouldn't want to try to count how many services Virgin run across their network daily. The 0.6% wasn't a Made Up Statistic™, it really was 1 out of 145 weekday services (at least that's what was planned for today).

 

[TimboM]

10%.

Northbound I think it's fairly logical as the Sleepers reach five final destinations and the punctuality stats can be measured at each of those.

However, for the Southbound services, does it just count as two (i.e. 1M11 and 1M16) measured on arrival at Euston? Or are the Fort William (1B01), Aberdeen (1B16) and Edinburgh (1C11) portions also measured separately on when they arrive at Euston? Or at Edinburgh/Carstairs?

EDIT: Just seen the pdf linked in the post above and it appears it's just the seven they measure in total, with just the two Southbound i.e. Fort William, Aberdeen and Inverness to Euston count as one; and Glasgow and Edinburgh to Euston count as one.

 

[bb21]

Northbound I think it's fairly logical as the Sleepers reach five final destinations and the punctuality stats can be measured at each of those.

However, for the Southbound services, does it just count as two (i.e. 1M11 and 1M16) measured on arrival at Euston? Or are the Fort William (1B01), Aberdeen (1B16) and Edinburgh (1C11) portions also measured separately on when they arrive at Euston? Or at Edinburgh/Carstairs?

Or some other method?

You see, I was just typing up some further explanations to najaB's post but lost it due to dodgy WiFi, and almost foresaw this coming.

I may be wrong with the 10% claim tbf. I don't know how they calculate them exactly. If they do it the same way as ours, then a late arrival into Euston counts as 10% PPM failure for that day (each leg treated separately). Alternatively as most pax effectively make the journey in that direction into Euston, a late arrival can mean either 20% PPM failure (Lowland), or 30% (Highland), ie. all southbound journeys treated as finishing at Euston. It all depends on the exact methodology they agreed on.

I may have to have another look at the NDPR tomorrow at work to try and figure out what they do.

EDIT: Just seen the pdf linked in the post above and it appears it's just the seven they measure in total, with just the two Southbound i.e. Fort William, Aberdeen and Inverness to Euston count as one; and Glasgow and Edinburgh to Euston count as one.

Not come across that before. Seems an odd way of calculating it.

 

[TimboM]

You see, I was just typing up some further explanations to najaB's post but lost it due to dodgy WiFi, and almost foresaw this coming.

I may be wrong with the 10% claim tbf. I don't know how they calculate them exactly. If they do it the same way as ours, then a late arrival into Euston counts as 10% PPM failure for that day (each leg treated separately). Alternatively as most pax effectively make the journey in that direction into Euston, a late arrival can mean either 20% PPM failure (Lowland), or 30% (Highland), ie. all southbound journeys treated as finishing at Euston. It all depends on the exact methodology they agreed on.

Ah OK, so whilst (as per my edit) it's 7 trains they show the stats for, they're not necessarily weighted equally - which makes sense really as per your explanation.

 

[TimboM]

Last period was 97% approx, moving annual average about 87%, this period is in the 90's percentage wise also I believe. Better to take a broader picture when looking at this sort of thing.
Was the sleeper not the best performing franchising recently?

Yes - in the last reporting period (Period 5; 23 July - 19 August) the PPM was 97.6% and the Right Time (RT) was 93.5% - both of which were the top scores across all operators.

Sub-Operator Period 5 Figures

 

[Kite159]

92033 hauling the busy looking northbound lowlander tonight.

Any idea which 73 is hauling the Fort William section of the Highlander tonight?

 

[High Dyke]

92033 hauling the busy looking northbound lowlander tonight.

Any idea which 73 is hauling the fort william section of the highlander tonight?

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