Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[CosherB]

If you pay £10,000+ to fly with Etihad in their "Residence" you're shower usage is limited to 10 minutes - and the limit is only 5 mins for their other first class passengers, who're paying an awful lot more than anyone on the sleeper will be.

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Not comparing 'apples with apples' are you? More like apples with elephants ....

 

[TimboM]

Not comparing 'apples with apples' are you? More like apples with elephants ....

Maybe, but I think the point is that no matter what people pay the majority will understand than when you're on a moving train (or plane) there is no mains water supply and hence the stocks are limited.
I expect the timers will be prominent and give ample warning of the water running out.

I also expect a minority will still complain and expect endless water (direct from a highland mountain spring) in their berths! :roll:

 

[gallafent]

[…] there is no mains water supply and hence the stocks are limited.

Surely there must be some technological solution for this problem …

https://youtu.be/DXBJnyjgbGw

 

[BRX]

Is there any standard gauge connection to the CAF plant where they're being built? If not, they certainly aren't coming 100% by rail! Given its location in the Basque country, I'd be doubtful.

Maybe you're onto something.

I'd find it quite surprising that they'd have their manufacturing plant with no standard voyage rail connection though - given the amount of stuff they build for use outside the Spanish broad gauge network.

 

[ooo]

Would it be possible to top up the water tanks enroute when stopped in stations?

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[Bungle965]

Would it be possible to top up the water tanks enroute when stopped in stations?

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What stations would you be suggesting that might be feasible?
Sam

 

[pacenotes]

Traveled last night to Inverness. The stock really is reaching the end of its life. So squieky and jurkey. We were booked into standard and they wouldn’t allow us into the lounge. Let’s see how the return in first is like in a couple of days but won’t be back before the new trains arrive.

Are they going to increase the price for travel for the new trains?

 

[Scotrail84]

92 010 declared a failure at Euston. 90 047 replacing it on 1S26.

 

[Scotrail84]

Traveled last night to Inverness. The stock really is reaching the end of its life. So squieky and jurkey. We were booked into standard and they wouldn’t allow us into the lounge. Let’s see how the return in first is like in a couple of days but won’t be back before the new trains arrive.

Are they going to increase the price for travel for the new trains?

As per the rules. Priority for 1st class.

Yes there will be a price increase imo.

 

[TimboM]

Surely there must be some technological solution for this problem …

https://youtu.be/DXBJnyjgbGw

I believe I'm related somehow to the person who invented those. Not water I'd want to wash in though!

 

[TimboM]

92 010 declared a failure at Euston. 90 047 replacing it on 1S26.

Do you know what 010's issue was?

 

[gsnedders]

Maybe you're onto something.

I'd find it quite surprising that they'd have their manufacturing plant with no standard voyage rail connection though - given the amount of stuff they build for use outside the Spanish broad gauge network.

Pretty sure they're built in CAF's original manufacturing plant, which is old enough that it dates back to when almost all of Europe solely used domestic stock; I imagine the cost of dual-gauging all the track to Hendaye just isn't worth the cost to CAF, and RENFE would be unlikely to make much use of it.

 

[Scotrail84]

Do you know what 010's issue was?

GSMR radio failed.

 

[Liam]

Traveled last night to Inverness. The stock really is reaching the end of its life. So squieky and jurkey. We were booked into standard and they wouldn’t allow us into the lounge. Let’s see how the return in first is like in a couple of days but won’t be back before the new trains arrive.

Are they going to increase the price for travel for the new trains?

Have they ever not been squeaky?

 

[TimboM]

GSMR radio failed.

Thanks - one of those small but very important things.

 

[Hadders]

Are they going to increase the price for travel for the new trains?

Huge increases if Serco's behaviour since winning the franchise is anything to go by.

 

[Northhighland]

Huge increases if Serco's behaviour since winning the franchise is anything to go by.

If the price rises are too steep then the passenger numbers will undoubtedly fall. I use the sleeper to go to London, I can be in central London by 8am and work through until 7pm. Be back in Inverness for 9am the next day. First class full price that is £420.

If I fly, Inverness to Gatwick return is usually around £100, in Gatwick for 9am, central London for 10, back in Inverness at 10pm. Given you have to be in Gatwick an hour before you leave, have to leave Central London by 6 ish, your day by air is a good few hours shorter and a lot more hassle but is already half the price.

If the Sleeper goes up in price, it will definitely lose business customers. Maybe they are not to bothered about business customers but in the winter months I think they will need business travel.

Hope they get the pricing right, this is a great way to do business in London.

 

[najaB]

If the Sleeper goes up in price, it will definitely lose business customers. Maybe they are not to bothered about business customers but in the winter months I think they will need business travel.

Hope they get the pricing right, this is a great way to do business in London.

Perhaps they'll do high/low season pricing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps they'll do high/low season pricing?

I suspect they will follow most hotels and fully yield-manage, potentially including the berth supplements.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Pretty sure they're built in CAF's original manufacturing plant, which is old enough that it dates back to when almost all of Europe solely used domestic stock; I imagine the cost of dual-gauging all the track to Hendaye just isn't worth the cost to CAF, and RENFE would be unlikely to make much use of it.

Interestingly, the CAF plant at Beasain will actually be less than a kilometre away from the standard-gauge European rail network soon enough. Unfortunately it's the new high speed line through the Basque country and it's going to be in a deep tunnel along the valley side at this point. The Basque Y project includes a connection to the French standard gauge network at Hendaye, evidently. If CAF did want standard gauge access, they would only need gauge-clearance for a few kilometres west along the valley and then a link down to the new AVE parkway station at Ezkio.

I guess though that a more likely option would be to build another factory better suited for standard gauge deliveries. If CAF is growing, then they can put production facilities nearer their customers, like the new facility in Wales. Then the Beasain plant can focus on domestic Iberian gauge construction.

 

[MisterT]

The new Dutch "SNG" ("Sprinter Next Generation") trains are currently being built at Beasain, which means that they actually do built standard gauge trains there.
The trains are transferred by road to the French border and from there on by rail.

 

[47271]

There's nothing wrong with yield management in principle, but current regular business users are mainly concerned by the future of the Flexipass, presently £145 per single journey.

For this to be maintained, or even reduced in winter, would appear to be fine, but for prices to rocket out of control in summer would be a very undesirable outcome. They need to find a way of maintaining a steady price - which could be higher than it is at the moment, noone's disputing that - throughout the year for this type of passenger.

 

[gsnedders]

I guess though that a more likely option would be to build another factory better suited for standard gauge deliveries. If CAF is growing, then they can put production facilities nearer their customers, like the new facility in Wales. Then the Beasain plant can focus on domestic Iberian gauge construction.

Aren't the majority of CAF's factories still in the Basque country? I wouldn't be surprised if they simply tried to build somewhere with decent access to the new 200km/h line (AIUI) from San Sebastián to Irun.

Note several of the Spain plants with domestic gauge connections do also do domestic work on both meter and standard gauge stock (the latter both AVE and metro).

 

[paul1609]

There's nothing wrong with yield management in principle, but current regular business users are mainly concerned by the future of the Flexipass, presently £145 per single journey.

For this to be maintained, or even reduced in winter, would appear to be fine, but for prices to rocket out of control in summer would be a very undesirable outcome. They need to find a way of maintaining a steady price - which could be higher than it is at the moment, noone's disputing that - throughout the year for this type of passenger.

As somebody who commutes from Scotland to Kent most weeks Im curious as to where the market is for a £290 return trip to London. It must be very small. Its probably 2 to 3 times the cost of the average airline ticket booked a week in advance. When I use the sleeper its usually a special treat (i am after all a rail enthusiast) but my fellow passengers are nearly all leisure customers many overseas. The west highland train is generally fully booked for about 10 weeks in the summer and nearly empty through the rest of the year. The future market has got to be as I see it a premium priced (£499?) return trip.

 

[47271]

As somebody who commutes from Scotland to Kent most weeks Im curious as to where the market is for a £290 return trip to London. It must be very small. Its probably 2 to 3 times the cost of the average airline ticket booked a week in advance. When I use the sleeper its usually a special treat (i am after all a rail enthusiast) but my fellow passengers are nearly all leisure customers many overseas. The west highland train is generally fully booked for about 10 weeks in the summer and nearly empty through the rest of the year. The future market has got to be as I see it a premium priced (£499?) return trip.

You've missed out London hotel costs in your arithmetic?

I live in Kingussie, but it could be any other location served by the train. If I need to be at The Strand for 9am I either have to fly the day before and pay to stay over for a price only slightly less than the current Flexipass rate, or get up at 330am and drive to Edinburgh and fall asleep at lunchtime, or take the sleeper.

So I take the sleeper. That's where the market is.

 

[Essexman]

You've missed out London hotel costs in your arithmetic?

I live in Kingussie, but it could be any other location served by the train. If I need to be at The Strand for 9am I either have to fly the day before and pay to stay over for a price only slightly less than the current Flexipass rate, or get up at 330am and drive to Edinburgh and fall asleep at lunchtime, or take the sleeper.

So I take the sleeper. That's where the market is.

Same for me travelling from Essex to Scotland.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In the case of business travel, there is also the cost saving - as in productivity - involved by travelling overnight each way as this allows the people to put in a full day of work on either side of the travel.

Don't just look at the cost of the salary when you take such things into account - internal charge rates for the time are what the accountants and Finance departments will base their value for money calculations on - and internal charge rates are often several times the person's actual earnings. So avoiding a single hour's lost productivity alone can justify quite a bit of travel cost.

 

[gsnedders]

In the case of business travel, there is also the cost saving - as in productivity - involved by travelling overnight each way as this allows the people to put in a full day of work on either side of the travel.

Don't just look at the cost of the salary when you take such things into account - internal charge rates for the time are what the accountants and Finance departments will base their value for money calculations on - and internal charge rates are often several times the person's actual earnings. So avoiding a single hour's lost productivity alone can justify quite a bit of travel cost.

The economics of the Lowlander have always interested me: I've always assumed the majority of custom comes from Edinburgh and Glasgow (given population distribution across the Central Belt), and both of those are cities with plenty of flights (and realistically, for many you can get up at 6am and get on a flight down in time for 9am, v. having maybe seven hours on a train and probably closer to six hours sleep).

 

[Fishplate84]

The economics of the Lowlander have always interested me: I've always assumed the majority of custom comes from Edinburgh and Glasgow (given population distribution across the Central Belt), and both of those are cities with plenty of flights (and realistically, for many you can get up at 6am and get on a flight down in time for 9am, v. having maybe seven hours on a train and probably closer to six hours sleep).

I live in the central belt and Flying is WAY more hassle than the sleeper. For the first flight you have to be at the airport early to park (and pay through the nose to park the car), get through passport control (never quick, and getting slower) and the obligatory 45 mins before the flight sitting around. Add in 30 mins to the airport and 30 mins to get up and ready. After that, get into the city but only the expensive airlines fly to London City. Go cheap and you're an hour getting in from Stansted / Luton / Gatwick / Heathrow. For me, impossible to get into London for a 9am meeting. 10 is just about achievable.

v

Leave home late, get the sleeper, arrive Euston before 7am, leisurely breakfast on the train, shower, miss the madness on the tube and be anywhere for 8.30 without any rush.

No competition.
Getting back is worse. Flying means being out of the city by 6pm - no later than the late day-train really. If you want to do anything in the evening, work late or drinks and dinner, Sleeper is the only way. Back at Euston 11pm, train, bed. Done.

Maybe I just don't like getting up very early and rushing around. Even the 1st class ticket is well worth the absence of hassle and certainly no more expensive than going down the night before and getting a hotel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passport control? Wha? The UK does not operate passport control on outbound, nor on domestic flights in any form.