Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[tgrb]

Hearing (probable) wibble on twitter one of the down sleepers (Aberdeen) to London is being replaced by bus due to a failure, I won't quote as it's unofficial and hearsay but does anyone know anything?

 

[najaB]

...one of the down sleepers (Aberdeen) to London...

Isn't that up in railway parlance? It seems to have lost some time at Montrose but nothing major.

 

[tgrb]

Isn't that up in railway parlance? It seems to have lost some time at Montrose but nothing major.

TBH I have no idea and I will bow to you superior knowledge - I was just assuming that from reading on here but we all know what assumption is ther mother of.....!

 

[najaB]

TBH I have no idea and I will bow to you superior knowledge - I was just assuming that from reading on here but we all know what assumption is ther mother of.....!

I get it confused all the time. Anyway, assuming that 1B16 2143 Aberdeen to London Euston is the train in question, it appears to be running - 4L at Usan when I last looked.

 

[47271]

UP is travelling towards London.

DOWN is travelling away from London.

Other rules can apply to other routes like Edinburgh to Glasgow, but there's no ambiguity around around the southbound Caledonian Sleeper in this case!

 

[TimboM]

I get it confused all the time. Anyway, assuming that 1B16 2143 Aberdeen to London Euston is the train in question, it appears to be running - 4L at Usan when I last looked.

The other night the seated coach had an issue (from Inverness IIRC) and as the berths were full the seated passengers were transported to Carstairs (I think) via alternative means to join the (Lowlander) Sleeper there where room could be found for them to get to London.

So it is possible to have an issue with part of the train that means some passengers are having to be bussed whilst the rest of the train is still running OK.

However, it's highly unlikely it would a bus all the way to London. Also, I've seen nothing mentioned elsewhere about this (not that it doesn't mean there isn't an issue).

 

[tgrb]

UP is travelling towards London.

DOWN is travelling away from London.

Other rules can apply to other routes like Edinburgh to Glasgow, but there's no ambiguity around around the southbound Caledonian Sleeper in this case!

All roads lead to London I guess

Useful info thanks

So in the case of it not being to/from London - is the rule of thumb UP is to the larger destination??

 

[najaB]

So in the case of it not being to/from London - is the rule of thumb UP is to the larger destination??

Slightly off-topic, but generally up is towards the headquarters/terminus of the railway that originally constructed the line.

 

[xotGD]

UP is travelling towards London.

DOWN is travelling away from London.

Other rules can apply to other routes like Edinburgh to Glasgow, but there's no ambiguity around around the southbound Caledonian Sleeper in this case!

But for the remaining 99.99% of the population it is Up North and Down South. Hence the frequent confusion.

Also, certain folks refer to going up to University, and being Sent Down if they are kicked out (or rusticated). So you would catch a down train to go up to Cambridge and an up train if you were sent down. :-?

 

[Jay92044]

92018 currently in the headshunt at Edinburgh, having done 1S25 last night, presume 1M16 tonight. 92010 being shunted by 08451 on Polmadie earlier. 92028 was also outside at Polmadie with Skoda 42 inside.

 

[najaB]

Also, certain folks refer to going up to University, and being Sent Down if they are kicked out (or rusticated). So you would catch a down train to go up to Cambridge and an up train if you were sent down. :-?

To bring this back to topic - if the Sleeper was involved then it would be the up sleeper to go down if you went up to Cambridge and the down sleeper to go back up if you got sent down.

 

[LeylandLen]

Just seen there has been a bomb scare at Euston, station evacuated , closing the station by BTP until about 2100 , so no doubt passengers and CS staff and train crew will be delayed getting to 1S25 for usual departure of 2115. I know there is enough slack in timings for time to be made up.

 

[GW43125]

Just seen there has been a bomb scare at Euston, station evacuated , closing the station by BTP until about 2100 , so no doubt passengers and CS staff and train crew will be delayed getting to 1S25 for usual departure of 2115. I know there is enough slack in timings for time to be made up.

1S25 started 78L; 1S26 currently 10 overdue. Unsurprising as 5S96 (ECS for 1S26) arrived 87L
*EDIT* 1S26 has just left 10 late.

 

[TimboM]

1S25 started 78L; 1S26 currently 10 overdue. Unsurprising as 5S96 (ECS for 1S26) arrived 87L
*EDIT* 1S26 has just left 10 late.

1S26's slight delay was in part due to a loco swap as well as the heavily delayed ECS. 90044 came in from Willesden to take the train in place of what I believe was the booked 92 (92014).

Not 100% confirmed, but I think what's happened is 92014 (which earlier took in the Highlander ECS - 5S95) has ended up trapped on the P1 buffers by its own ECS (i.e. 86101 with the Lowlander ECS). Hence the spare Skoda needing to be brought in from WN.

1S25 Highlander left P1 at 2233 and 5S96 Lowlander ECS arrived there at 2252. Adding 2+2 (and possibly making 5!) it appears there wasn't time and/or driver and/or path available to get 92014 out of P1 before the ECS came in.

 

[StephenHunter]

To bring this back to topic - if the Sleeper was involved then it would be the up sleeper to go down if you went up to Cambridge and the down sleeper to go back up if you got sent down.

Although of course the Sleeper wouldn't go there as it isn't on the ECML...

Apparently the evacuation at Euston was down to an exploding e-cigarette.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just seen there has been a bomb scare at Euston, station evacuated , closing the station by BTP until about 2100 , so no doubt passengers and CS staff and train crew will be delayed getting to 1S25 for usual departure of 2115. I know there is enough slack in timings for time to be made up.

Not on this occasion - 1S25 currently 68L Dunkeld.

 

[delt1c]

Just a thought but I believe this is the 1st time the 73's have had booked diagrams for sleepers.

 

[TimboM]

Not on this occasion - 1S25 currently 68L Dunkeld.

Now 73L at Blair Atholl...

Had recovered somewhat to 36L at Edinburgh, but started losing time from Stirling and significantly so after Perth. Single-track sections and having to wait for day trains I'm assuming?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Maybe not the time and place for this comment but if the service on the HML can be so volatile so early in the day, is 1tph daytimes not a slightly fatal idea?
I havnt checked but I assume at least 1 of the early Central belt bound units has also picked up some form of delay due to the sleaper being late? Or has the sleaper simply absorbed all the delays to keep the 170s puffing away happily?

 

[TimboM]

Maybe not the time and place for this comment but if the service on the HML can be so volatile so early in the day, is 1tph daytimes not a slightly fatal idea?
I havnt checked but I assume at least 1 of the early Central belt bound units has also picked up some form of delay due to the sleaper being late? Or has the sleaper simply absorbed all the delays to keep the 170s puffing away happily?

Given 1S25 just topped the two hour delayed mark at Aviemore (121L) having left Waverley "only" 36 Late - and also I cannot see any other delayed trains around it - I'm assuming the Sleeper has been kept out of the way of the day trains.

In better news, the Aberdeen portion arrived only 3 mins late in the end and the Fort Bill arrived Right Time.

 

[Chrism20]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...rrives-with-double-beds-and-showers-1-4546024

Couple of additional artists impressions on the Scotsman Facebook page. The layout in the lounge looks interesting.

No surprise re the info about the fares.

Serco, which runs the Scotland-London service, today launched a new website to give passengers a glimpse of the replacements for the current carriages, which are 40 years old or more. Pictures of the completed interiors will follow once they have rolled off the production line at Beasain in northern Spain.

Other features include a hotel-style key card system so passengers don’t have to ask staff to unlock their cabins. There will be wi-fi throughout the train, which is not currently provided, and new reclining seats for seated passengers.

Fares have yet to be announced, but they will be higher than at present for the extra facilities such as double beds or ensuite cabins.

That means most sleeping car passengers will pay more because some two-thirds of cabins will be ensuite on a typical eight-coach train on the Edinburgh and Glasgow routes.

 

[TimboM]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...rrives-with-double-beds-and-showers-1-4546024

Couple of additional artists impressions on the Scotsman Facebook page. The layout in the lounge looks interesting.

No surprise re the info about the fares.

There's a link to the new CS website that's just been launched about the new stock and some discussion around it on this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140485&page=14

 

[AlterEgo]

Those mock ups look very promising. Do they have a date planned for the start of service?

 

[TimboM]

Those mock ups look very promising. Do they have a date planned for the start of service?

It was "April 2018", new website now says "Spring 2018". Other reports on this thread previously indicate that they are behind schedule, so I guess we'll have to wait and see when they finally arrive.

I seem to recall the first set was due to arrive c.September for testing and now they're talking about Nov/Dec (in today's RAIL), so suggests 2-3 months behind the original plan?

Also, there'll be a point at which the first set(s) are introduced (on the Lowlander I believe so they end up at Wembley/Polmadie each day in case of any fault-finding needed) and then a date at which the full service is new stock and the Mk3/Mk2s are withdrawn.

 

[Altnabreac]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...rrives-with-double-beds-and-showers-1-4546024

Couple of additional artists impressions on the Scotsman Facebook page. The layout in the lounge looks interesting.

No surprise re the info about the fares.

That means most sleeping car passengers will pay more because some two-thirds of cabins will be ensuite on a typical eight-coach train on the Edinburgh and Glasgow routes.

I'm slightly surprised by the two-thirds quote.

The original Franchise Spec was for:
4x Sleeper Coach - 4 x Ensuite Berths and 7 x Berths.
1x Pod Coach - 24 Pods
1x Hybrid Coach - 5 berths, 8 Pods
1x Seated Coach - 31 seats
1x Club Car

So you had 16 ensuite berths, 33 normal berths and 32 pods.

Now we've lost the pods and gained the Suites with double beds but have there really been such a significant change to the balance of Ensuite vs non ensuite such that 2/3rds are ensuite?

Does anyone have the numbers of ensuite vs non ensuite berths in each of SLE; SLEP; SLED?

 

[gingerheid]

Should have had Yotel design the carriages! Everything you need in a tiny space!

 

[TimboM]

I'm slightly surprised by the two-thirds quote.

The original Franchise Spec was for:
4x Sleeper Coach - 4 x Ensuite Berths and 7 x Berths.
1x Pod Coach - 24 Pods
1x Hybrid Coach - 5 berths, 8 Pods
1x Seated Coach - 31 seats
1x Club Car

So you had 16 ensuite berths, 33 normal berths and 32 pods.

Now we've lost the pods and gained the Suites with double beds but have there really been such a significant change to the balance of Ensuite vs non ensuite such that 2/3rds are ensuite?

Does anyone have the numbers of ensuite vs non ensuite berths in each of SLE; SLEP; SLED?

I believe the spec has altered quite considerably from the original Franchise (as you allude to) andthe arrangements will be much more similar to they are now (i.e. First/"Club" coaches with the en suites and a Standard/"Classic" without, rather than all being a mix). Looking at rough numbers (set out below) I think overall there'll be about 25% less berths, with all having more space and better facilities (notably the Club/First ones with the en suites) and that will be the reason/justification for the much higher prices.

When you book tickets into the possible new stock period, the coach diagrams that are provided (or at least were) on the CS website give two main options as can be seen in this post: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3076641&postcount=4326
In addition, the website launched today indicates room/berth types as follows:

Club Class ("First"):
Suites - Double bed + en suite
Club Rooms - Single bed + en suite

Classic Class ("Standard")
Classic Rooms - Bunk bed, sink, no en-suite (i.e. similar to current berths)

Accessible:
Accessible rooms - details of which are less clear, but indicates a partner can travel too, so possible a bunk arranagement?

There are then the 31 seats in the stand-alone seated/brake coach which is the same as now.

Looking at the booking/coach layouts (and these may be indicative), it appears that there are:
- First/Club sleeper coaches, with 3x (Double) Suites, 3x Club Rooms + 1 Accessible Room
- Classic sleeper coaches with 10x twin berths (which can be shared or booked "solo" for a supplement it would appear).

Someone will know the exact figures, but I believe the current Mk3s have 12-13 berths depending on whether they're SLEs, SLEPs or SLEDs. So for the "First" coaches currently they can accomodate 12-13 passengers, but it will be 10 (incl 1 in Accessible) on the new stock (approx. 25% reduction).

The current Standard sleepers accommodate 24-26 passengers max, whereas going forward it'll be 18-20 max (again approx. 25% reduction).

Assuming the mix of First/Standard (aka "Club/Classic") coaches remains the same (and that is an assumption) then it appears the overall number of berths will reduce by c.25%. The flip side of this will be bigger berths in "Standard" and significantly enhanced facilities in Club/First (esp the en suites).

If the layouts are indeed like this the "two-thirds of berths will have an en-suite" quote definitely appears inaccurate as you would need an unlikely mix of 5/6x Club Cars and 1/2x Classic cars in each 8-coach rake to achieve such a ratio.

 

[Chrism20]

I believe the spec has altered quite considerably from the original Franchise (as you allude to). I think the arrangements will be much more similar to they are now (i.e. First/"Club" coaches with the en suites and a Standard/"Classic" without, rather than all being a mix). Looking at rough numbers (set out below) I think overall there'll be about 25% less berths, with all having more space and better facilities (notably the Club/First ones with the en suites) and that will be the reason/justification for the much higher prices.

It would probably make it easier for them not be mixed. The only issue I can think of though with en suites and showers etc is will there be enough space for all this water if they are all bunched together.

 

[TimboM]

It would probably make it easier for them not be mixed. The only issue I can think of though with en suites and showers etc is will there be enough space for all this water if they are all bunched together.

Good point, but that said in a Club it's max 9 or 10 people using showers/toilets (and I believe water usage will be "rationed" via timers on the showers) vs up to 20 people in the Classic cars using sinks/toilets.

On balance the water usage could well be similar (i.e. twice the facilities, but half the number of pax in Club).

As with the current stock, it'll also be more practicable (and amenable to those paying the top prices) having the Club coaches adjacent to the Club Lounge. (I wonder if "Classic" customers will be as welcome as they are now in the lounge...?)

 

[Chrism20]

Good point, but that said in a Club it's max 9 or 10 people using showers/toilets (and I believe water usage will be "rationed" via timers on the showers) vs up to 20 people in the Classic cars using sinks/toilets.

On balance the water usage could well be similar (i.e. twice the facilities, but half the number of pax in Club).

As with the current stock, it'll also be more practicable (and amenable to those paying the top prices) having the Club coaches adjacent to the Club Lounge. (I wonder if "Classic" customers will be as welcome as they are now in the lounge...?)

It will be interesting to see how it works. The rationing idea makes me laugh though. I can see someone who's spent a fortune for the "Best room in the house" having a hissy fit because they got halfway through washing their hair and it cut out.

The posher you go the more demanding the clientele as they say.

The lounge access is an interesting one as in the picture in the Scotsman it looks like there may be less seating in there looking at the angles of the individual seats.