Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[coppercapped]

I'd be surprised if that were the reason. Do modern bodyshells rely on the glazing in the windows for structural rigidity?

No. The reason is, I suspect, different. From the photograph of the bodyshell on the CAF web site, the coaches appear to be made of extruded aluminium planks. These are double-walled, i.e., have an outer and an inner skin linked by longitudinal webs[*]. This form of construction makes a very rigid bodyshell.

If the window opens it will have to slide over the inside skin (unless it's a hinged opening window!); as a result it will take up space on the inside of the train. Cutting away the inner skin and webs to get the glass closer to the outer skin will certainly affect the stressing and add expense as another manufacturing step will be needed.

Anyway, why do some people want to add potential sources of noise, draughts and corrosion to what is supposed to be a quiet coach?

[*] There's a section of a Class 165/166 body in the museum at York if anyone wants to see a real life example.

 

[enrag2000]

Carlisle is the other way round, Pick up on the way to London (Up)

Set Down on the way to Scotland (Down)

Until CS took over the franchise, the Highland Sleeper called at Carlisle to pick up northbound and set down southbound. For some reason they have cancelled the Carlisle call, goodness knows why, they are not exactly pushed for time!

 

[221129]

Until CS took over the franchise, the Highland Sleeper called at Carlisle to pick up northbound and set down southbound. For some reason they have cancelled the Carlisle call, goodness knows why, they are not exactly pushed for time!

They haven't cancelled the call at all. Pick up South Bound and Set Down North bound (Not sure if they are Pick up only or Set down only though)

 

[Crossover]

They haven't cancelled the call at all. Pick up South Bound and Set Down North bound (Not sure if they are Pick up only or Set down only though)

Just looked on OTT which shows (for tonight at least) Carlisle as an unadvertised stop

 

[221129]

Just looked on OTT which shows (for tonight at least) Carlisle as an unadvertised stop

It deffinitely stops there for passengers... Pick up South Set Down North...

RTT shows it as a normal Passenger stop.

 

[kevin5025]

Agree with others, the lack of flatbed pods seems to be a real loss. That being said, it would have resulted in a decrease in cabin berths, no doubt making them more expensive, so maybe it is for the best. I can't imagine what the safety issues might be - airlines use them.

As usual the CS press releases (originating from TS, and in turn Scottish Government ) make no mention of the £50 million contribution of the UK government. They say £110 investment but don't say where the £50 million not covered by Scottish Government comes from https://www.sleeper.scot/news. Nationalism isn't it great :roll:

 

[BRX]

No. The reason is, I suspect, different. From the photograph of the bodyshell on the CAF web site, the coaches appear to be made of extruded aluminium planks. These are double-walled, i.e., have an outer and an inner skin linked by longitudinal webs[*]. This form of construction makes a very rigid bodyshell.

If the window opens it will have to slide over the inside skin (unless it's a hinged opening window!); as a result it will take up space on the inside of the train. Cutting away the inner skin and webs to get the glass closer to the outer skin will certainly affect the stressing and add expense as another manufacturing step will be needed.

Anyway, why do some people want to add potential sources of noise, draughts and corrosion to what is supposed to be a quiet coach?

The standard way to do it is just to have a two-panel window where one half slides over the other. Either vertically or horizontally. See many modern drivers' cab windows, on locos or multiple units. There's no particular technical complication or need to do anything unusual to the shell.

Why do we want opening windows? Personally, it's one of the joys of taking the highland sleeper to be able to open the window in the morning and smell the fresh air and feel some connection to the outside world. But it's also popular with anyone who wants to take photos. As is recognised in other places in the world on scenic lines. Most times when I take the Fort William train, if it's good weather I'll observe people standing at several of the vestibule windows, and they aren't all train freaks. Some are there with their cameras, some are just enjoying the experience.

My ideal would be an observation car with a little balcony at the back, like they have on the Royal Scotsman. But I realise that's probably asking too much.

The issues with drafts, noise etc could be designed out if there was the will. For example, if there is a baggage compartment for bikes, it could possibly be provided there without causing a problem for "quiet" parts of the train.

 

[crewmeal]

Why do we want opening windows? Personally, it's one of the joys of taking the highland sleeper to be able to open the window in the morning and smell the fresh air and feel some connection to the outside world.

Don't you get the smell of diesel wafting by when you open a window?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Don't you get the smell of diesel wafting by when you open a window?

You can get that particular whiff through the air conditioning on the existing Sleeper stock as it is...

 

[enrag2000]

They haven't cancelled the call at all. Pick up South Bound and Set Down North bound (Not sure if they are Pick up only or Set down only though)

You are referring to the Lowland sleeper (Glasgow/Edinburgh) - I was referring to the Highland sleeper (Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William). It used to be possible to travel between Carlisle and Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William; since CS took over, it is no longer available - hence my earlier post!

 

[route:oxford]

Sink is very boutique-hotel, but not so practical without a cover as noted above.

From the renders, the first jerking movement of the train will result in the bottles situated by the sink landing on the bed, no doubt spilling and soaking the mattress.

 

[coppercapped]

The standard way to do it is just to have a two-panel window where one half slides over the other. Either vertically or horizontally. See many modern drivers' cab windows, on locos or multiple units. There's no particular technical complication or need to do anything unusual to the shell.

<SNIP>

You are, of course, quite right! I was thinking along the lines of the type of droplights one finds in doors.

It does add some complication though, and I wonder how many people, apart from enthusiasts, really want to open the windows? It might be more than I would expect!

 

[Russardo]

You are, of course, quite right! I was thinking along the lines of the type of droplights one finds in doors.

It does add some complication though, and I wonder how many people, apart from enthusiasts, really want to open the windows? It might be more than I would expect!

Opening windows add weight (admittedly marginal) and cost. Probably the main reason for not having them. Then there's the safety issue, OK not massive but it is an avoidable risk. Then there's the cabin environment, noise and climate control.

Not worth taking photos on the vast majority of the sleeper journey (hint most of the journey is at night). Add to that the VAST majority of people will not want to open or hang out the window.

As much as I would like opening windows surely everyone can fully understand why it won't have them.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

... noise and climate control...

This, more than anything is why they aren't likely to feature.

 

[cf111]

Has the contract for the 67s now expired?

 

[BRX]

Opening windows add weight (admittedly marginal) and cost. Probably the main reason for not having them. Then there's the safety issue, OK not massive but it is an avoidable risk. Then there's the cabin environment, noise and climate control.

Not worth taking photos on the vast majority of the sleeper journey (hint most of the journey is at night). Add to that the VAST majority of people will not want to open or hang out the window.

As much as I would like opening windows surely everyone can fully understand why it won't have them.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

The fort william train has several hours of daylight in the summer months, on the WHL section.

Like I said above, I often observe other passengers standing at the open windows on this service.

Here's what they provide in Switzerland (brand new train with opening windows)

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ailway-introduces-new-trains.html?channel=529


And here's a train in new zealand

http://www.seat61.com/northern-explorer.htm


Really, we should be making this kind of effort on our scenic lines. Day trains too. The WHL in particular seems like a missed opportunity for more focused promotion as a scenic journey.

 

[Russardo]

The fort william train has several hours of daylight in the summer months, on the WHL section.

Like I said above, I often observe other passengers standing at the open windows on this service.

Here's what they provide in Switzerland (brand new train with opening windows)

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ailway-introduces-new-trains.html?channel=529


And here's a train in new zealand

http://www.seat61.com/northern-explorer.htm


Really, we should be making this kind of effort on our scenic lines. Day trains too. The WHL in particular seems like a missed opportunity for more focused promotion as a scenic journey.

Yes these are tourist day time trains, fine. We're talking about a sleeper train. It's primary function is to allow people to sleep and arrive at their destination having slept well. I seriously doubt even 50% of passengers might even consider opening a window. Morning coffee and getting refreshed (yes while enjoying the view) more like. Certainly on balance not having opening windows is a very reasonable decision.

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[Clansman]

Rail Magazine released these 2 pictures showing what looks to be the Buffet and Seated Cars under construction for Caledonian Sleeper:

Do I spy a Civity body shell at the sides?

 

[Hadders]

Surprised this layout isn't being considered for the 700s...

 

[pitdiver]

Surprised this layout isn't being considered for the 700s...

I think it will be the design for future franchises operated by Easytrain or Ryanrail

 

[Mordac]

Apparently this morning's Fort Will portion was cancelled between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but managed to materialize at Glasgow and do the rest of the run!
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C72724/2016/07/04/advanced

 

[jon0844]

Surprised this layout isn't being considered for the 700s...

Look at how the 365 interior has changed over its life. This could be the 700s after one or two refreshes!

 

[47271]

Apparently this morning's Fort Will portion was cancelled between Edinburgh and Glasgow, but managed to materialize at Glasgow and do the rest of the run!
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C72724/2016/07/04/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O08862/2016/07/04/advanced

Here's the missing link - my guess is that, partly because of the dispute, they couldn't get a guard in Edinburgh so ran it ECS to Glasgow, where there was a guard to be found, presumably with the poor passengers bussed half asleep between the two points.

There's been quite a bit of this going on Sunday nights recently - Highlander sections running empty north of Edinburgh for want of a guard and the passengers and hosts getting put on parallel buses.

The first paragraph is just my guess mind.

 

[Observer]

So with the 67s gone, what happens when the 73s chuck it?

I'm aware there's a 66 being used with a 73 for one of the journeys but I assume that's only until 73971 is released and ready?

 

[sprinterguy]

Has the contract for the 67s now expired?

Yes, the contract expired on June 30th. From RAIL magazine:

Rebuilt ‘73/9s’ take over all Caledonian Sleeper work
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...t-73/9s-take-over-all-caledonian-sleeper-work

Caledonian Sleeper is no longer using Class 67s on its trains from Edinburgh Waverley to the Highlands, because sufficient rebuilt Class 73/9s are now available for these duties.

The deal to hire the locomotives ended on June 30.

CS hires its traction from GB Railfreight. The Class 73/9s had been scheduled to start in April last year, when CS took over Sleeper operations from First ScotRail. However, they were delayed due to various complications with the rebuild, and so GBRf hired the ‘67s’ from DB as a stopgap. ScotRail had used the Class 67s prior to the end of the franchise.

GBRf will use Class 73s on trains to and from Fort William and Aberdeen, while a Class 66/73 combination will be used on the Inverness train. The Class 73 is provided on that train for electric train supply, as the ‘66’ is not so equipped.

Interesting that, as Observer notes, a 66 is being used in tandem with a 73 on the Inverness sleeper: Shades of the ETHELs which were used for a short period on the Fort William sleeper after mark 3 stock was introduced but before train supply fitted 37/4s were available.

 

[Rick1984]

Will the 66 be permanent then or is this temporary?
Interesting to see s class 66 on passenger duty.

 

[CosherB]

The use of 66s for the moment makes perfect sense. I would imagine that this is a temporary arrangement until all 6 of the CS 73/9s have completed their on-line commissioning and any modifications required are sorted. I'm sure GBRf would, long term, want to use double-headed 73/9s on the Inverness run, with the 66s as a back-up across Scottish operations.

I'm surprised no-one has asked why GBRf hasn't fitted ETS to 66s by now!

 

[gsnedders]

I'm surprised no-one has asked why GBRf hasn't fitted ETS to 66s by now!

Why hasn't GBRf fitted ETS to the 66s? It would allow them to use it instead of the 67s, and then in future they could be used to haul 442s!

 

[TimboM]

What happens when the (GBRf) 66s are hauling railtours, e.g. The Royal Scotsman. Do they have their own generator coaches (or similar)?

 

[Crossover]

What happens when the (GBRf) 66s are hauling railtours, e.g. The Royal Scotsman. Do they have their own generator coaches (or similar)?

Probably. A railtour I was on last year had a "gennie van" when hauled by non-ETS 37's. Sadly there was an earth fault on a coach not far along the train so for the return we gained an additional 57 on the back to provide power to the part of the train that was isolated from the generator van