Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[whiteyrhys]

I travelled on the INV-EUS sleeper last night (04/07) and something intrigued me!

I wasn't able to sleep early in the morning so decided to get some fresh air and as we were going round a corner...we weren't formed of the usual long train but just the section I was in at Inverness.

A week or two beforehand I did hear from one of the hosts in the Lounge Car that the Inverness section of the sleeper would be travelling the line alone and that shunting at Edinburgh early morning was going to become a thing of the past. Can anyone confirm this?

Also, there were more carriages at the platform when we got to Euston so the other sleepers did travel!

Thanks to anyone who can help

 

[47271]

I can't explain what you saw, but there may be future plans to run the Inverness section, by far the busiest CS route, as a separate train throughout.

Around what time of night did you look out of the window, the southbound shunt doesn't occur until around 1am?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Looks like another trip up to Fortbill is needed very soon then for some 73 haulage!

 

[Crossover]

Looks like another trip up to Fortbill is needed very soon then for some 73 haulage!

I had hoped we may have the 73's when we did the trip a few weeks ago

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't explain what you saw, but there may be future plans to run the Inverness section, by far the busiest CS route, as a separate train throughout.

An interesting idea - that would, assuming the Fort Bill and Aberdeen stayed together, mean that the Fort Bill lounge car and seated car needn't come off (assuming enough are being ordered to do that).

 

[sprinterguy]

What happens when the (GBRf) 66s are hauling railtours, e.g. The Royal Scotsman. Do they have their own generator coaches (or similar)?

The Royal Scotsman certainly has its' own onboard generator, located in a modified mark 3 sleeper car. Other generator cars are also available for railtour use.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I had hoped we may have the 73's when we did the trip a few weeks ago

Likewise, if your up for a repeat performance then PM me

 

[marks87]

I can't explain what you saw, but there may be future plans to run the Inverness section, by far the busiest CS route, as a separate train throughout.

Are there enough free platforms at Euston for a third sleeper arriving in the AM peak?

I suppose in theory the Aberdeen/Fort William portion could pull in behind the Inverness one, since that overall length would only be slightly longer than when the ECS is brought in with locomotives at both ends. But then whatever comes in to take it away to Wembley would foul the points at the throat.

 

[47271]

Are there enough free platforms at Euston for a third sleeper arriving in the AM peak?

I suppose in theory the Aberdeen/Fort William portion could pull in behind the Inverness one, since that overall length would only be slightly longer than when the ECS is brought in with locomotives at both ends. But then whatever comes in to take it away to Wembley would foul the points at the throat.

Good point, but I've also heard (bear in mind this is lounge car gossip passed on at third hand by a few very regular CS users I know, I claim no real knowledge) that Euston isn't necessarily the sleeper's London terminal of permanent choice, partly because of likely disruption there caused by HS2 rebuilding.

The enforced diversion of the Highlander to Kings Cross earlier this year was generally well received so this may be a future option again, although I'm sure they do no better than Euston for morning platforms. I don't know what this would mean for Wembley, bringing the train in and out to Kings Cross was a bit of a palaver, but the new stock may be serviced in a completely different way anyway?

I've also heard Waterloo, but that may have been my informant's whisky ears at work, I believe a lot of this was passed on very late one night a few weeks ago somewhere in the Warrington area and he's fundamentally not that interested in the first place!

 

[Steveman]

Good point, but I've also heard (bear in mind this is lounge car gossip passed on at third hand by a few very regular CS users I know, I claim no real knowledge) that Euston isn't necessarily the sleeper's London terminal of permanent choice, partly because of likely disruption there caused by HS2 rebuilding.

The enforced diversion of the Highlander to Kings Cross earlier this year was generally well received so this may be a future option again, although I'm sure they do no better than Euston for morning platforms. I don't know what this would mean for Wembley, bringing the train in and out to Kings Cross was a bit of a palaver, but the new stock may be serviced in a completely different way anyway?

I've also heard Waterloo, but that may have been my informant's whisky ears at work, I believe a lot of this was passed on very late one night a few weeks ago somewhere in the Warrington area and he's fundamentally not that interested in the first place!

About a month ago when on the Inverness sleeper one of the attendants told me she had heard that they may be moving from Euston the date probably early next year.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I've also heard Waterloo, but that may have been my informant's whisky ears at work, I believe a lot of this was passed on very late one night a few weeks ago somewhere in the Warrington area and he's fundamentally not that interested in the first place!

Waterloo was in the frame when there was talk of one Sleeper franchise, to run the Caley and the Night Riviera.

It's since been abandoned and the E* platforms go to SWT once all the works are completed.

 

[bavvo]

An interesting idea - that would, assuming the Fort Bill and Aberdeen stayed together, mean that the Fort Bill lounge car and seated car needn't come off (assuming enough are being ordered to do that).

Maybe they have to anyway. If half the current Highland sleeper is 20m carriages, and half 23m, and is at the limit of platform length in London, and the replacement stock is all 23m long, then maybe they simply can't fit the same formation into one platform.

Would be good news though, allowing an increase in capacity, if they add further stock in future, although presumably upping costs with 2 extra loco hires per night.

 

[Essexman]

Not having the Edinburgh shunting would allow later departure or earlier arrival - however I would prefer times left as they are as this gives a longer night's sleep, plus it would be even earlier / later for stations such as Perth and Pitlochry (where I'm boarding on Friday). So if the same times were kept would it stop somewhere on the way for a while like the Night Riviera does I wonder?

 

[Blindtraveler]

If KX were used, would the current route south of EDB be abandened in favour of the ECML or would it continue to use it as far as perhaps Crewe before crossing back East and heading to London that way?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

If KX were used, would the current route south of EDB be abandened in favour of the ECML or would it continue to use it as far as perhaps Crewe before crossing back East and heading to London that way?

There is no through OLE route at present from anywhere south of Glasgow to get across to Kings Cross, until you reach London.

So coming down the ECML would be much easier. It would cut off passengers for Preston and Carlisle, but are there many in the grand scheme of things?

However it would open up Newcastle and Doncaster which would probably balance out in terms of passenger numbers.

 

[fgwrich]

There is no through OLE route at present from anywhere south of Glasgow to get across to Kings Cross, until you reach London.

So coming down the ECML would be much easier. It would cut off passengers for Preston and Carlisle, but are there many in the grand scheme of things?

However it would open up Newcastle and Doncaster which would probably balance out in terms of passenger numbers.

Could these stops still be saved if the Lowland continued to run this way? Or would CS completely pull out of Euston in favor of the Cross?

Was also thinking about this earlier - As the Lowland departs Scotland later - Could the Inverness portion be tacked onto this? It would still involve some level of shunting i'll agree, but if its a later departure wanted for the Inverness portion, could this work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe they have to anyway. If half the current Highland sleeper is 20m carriages, and half 23m, and is at the limit of platform length in London, and the replacement stock is all 23m long, then maybe they simply can't fit the same formation into one platform.

The new stock is all 22m long for precisely that reason.

 

[paul1609]

About a month ago when on the Inverness sleeper one of the attendants told me she had heard that they may be moving from Euston the date probably early next year.

I reckon sometime in 2018 after the Thameslink Services are diverted through the core there will be a few spare platforms in KGX in the morning peak.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Actually just looking at the timetables on the Caledonian website, they list Crewe and Preston on the Highland and Carlisle for the Lowland.

I would be interested to know which direction and workings attract the most interest from the intermediate stops, if any.

 

[TimboM]

An interesting idea - that would, assuming the Fort Bill and Aberdeen stayed together, mean that the Fort Bill lounge car and seated car needn't come off (assuming enough are being ordered to do that).

They've ordered 75 coaches - 4x 16 coach rakes + 11 spare vehicles, so will depend what they have in the "spares" - you'd think they'd have at least one spare lounge car though?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Royal Scotsman certainly has its' own onboard generator, located in a modified mark 3 sleeper car. Other generator cars are also available for railtour use.

Thanks
(+ Crossover)

 

[captainbigun]

The new stock is all 22m long for precisely that reason.

22.2 to be precise.

 

[sprinterguy]

They've ordered 75 coaches - 4x 16 coach rakes + 11 spare vehicles, so will depend what they have in the "spares" - you'd think they'd have at least one spare lounge car though?

There's supposed to be 11 seated and 11 lounge cars (with 9 in use, 1 on maintenance and 1 in reserve in both cases) provided with the new stock compared to an identical provision today (there are nine genuine lounge cars and two micro-buffets which perform the same function). The franchise agreement states that one of the new seated cars and one of the new lounge cars will run between Fort William and Edinburgh only within the basic service pattern, so I wouldn't expect to see much or any change.

I know it's not the be all and end all, but on Realtime trains I can see no evidence of an additional path into Euston on the morning of July 5th for the Aberdeen and Fort William sleeper portions to occupy independent of the Inverness one, which you would assume would be essential for a train to traverse the full length of the WCML. The carriages from the Lowland sleeper would, however, have also been at Euston at the time that the Highland sleeper arrived.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually just looking at the timetables on the Caledonian website, they list Crewe and Preston on the Highland and Carlisle for the Lowland.

I would be interested to know which direction and workings attract the most interest from the intermediate stops, if any.

Crewe attracts custom from the surrounding area on the Highland going north, and perhaps North Wales too (myself and my partner changed onto the Highland sleeper at Crewe after the ferry into Holyhead a couple of years ago, and we weren't the only patrons dossing around the waiting room waiting for the service either, although I think we constituted 2 out of 3 Fort William passengers from Crewe that night): It could be useful for those coming from the West Midlands, too, although those handful of people that I know, including myself, who have looked to join the Caledonian Sleeper from the Birmingham area have always chosen to travel south; to either Watford Junction for the Lowland or Euston for the Highland, due to the fast, frequent connection and in the latter instance IMO for the added glamour of starting from the origin, and for getting to work on the whiskies in the lounge car sooner.

 

[Bald Rick]

I reckon sometime in 2018 after the Thameslink Services are diverted through the core there will be a few spare platforms in KGX in the morning peak.

Yes, but, not for 16 coach trains!

 

[BRX]

The London preak-time platform capacity issue could be solved by starting/finishing the sleepers somewhere south of London...Brighton or Southampton say, and doing the London stop at, say, Kensington Olympia. There's quite a large population in the SE who might find such a thing attractive.

I'm sure everyone will come back with lots of reasons that would be difficult, but just a thought...

In a better, parallel universe we would also have gone ahead with the night trains through the Chunnel of course.

 

[crehld]

Actually just looking at the timetables on the Caledonian website, they list Crewe and Preston on the Highland and Carlisle for the Lowland.

I would be interested to know which direction and workings attract the most interest from the intermediate stops, if any.

Well Mrs crehld and I joined the Highland sleeper to Inverness from Crewe on Tuesday night. There were at least 7 or 8 others boarding. And we boarded the train 20 mins before departure so its entirely possible more got on after we did.

 

[bavvo]

The London preak-time platform capacity issue could be solved by starting/finishing the sleepers somewhere south of London...Brighton or Southampton say, and doing the London stop at, say, Kensington Olympia. There's quite a large population in the SE who might find such a thing attractive.

I'm sure everyone will come back with lots of reasons that would be difficult, but just a thought...

In a better, parallel universe we would also have gone ahead with the night trains through the Chunnel of course.

Stratford or Ashford via HS1? Everywhere else is 3rd rail land so would need a loco swap. But I dare say London is where most want to go for work/visits or connections and it's not great being turfed out of your beds early because the train is only booked to stop in London for a few minutes.

 

[marks87]

Stratford or Ashford via HS1? Everywhere else is 3rd rail land so would need a loco swap.

Not when the 92s return.

 

[BRX]

Stratford or Ashford via HS1? Everywhere else is 3rd rail land so would need a loco swap. But I dare say London is where most want to go for work/visits or connections and it's not great being turfed out of your beds early because the train is only booked to stop in London for a few minutes.

I think it would be fine as long as the timetable was sensible - so the London stop was at 8am or so and not 5.30 or something like that.

 

[robbeech]

Well I'm currently on the southbound sleeper from Glasgow. Just north of Lockerbie. And we have been stood 10 minutes or so. Not sure why.
Lots of waiting in the lounge car tonight. Only 1 guy working. And lots of people mysteriously locked out of their rooms.

Rob

 

[Haig paxton]

I wonder how the Scotrail Guards strikes have been impacting on the running of the Sleeper on the routes not covered by their own Guards?