CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Krokodil]

(197) has aircon

Only on a good day

 

[Lurcheroo]

Have I missed something about the roll-out of ETCS on another route served by TfW? As far as I was aware, the only planned ETCS deployments making any headway were the tunnels into Heathrow (now live if I recall correctly) and the East Coast Digital Programme (a short stretch used only by Great Northern having already gone live with sections further north to follow but as an overlay with lineside signals remaining in place). Regarding the Cambrian, my understanding is that Machynlleth depot cannot accomodate 3-car units and only Machynlleth and Pwllheli drivers now sign the Cambrian. Also, I recently wrote to James Price at TfW; one of my points being a suggestion that Shrewsbury drivers should be trainned to work to Machynlleth or Aberystwyth, rather than cutting the first morning Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth working to start from Welshpool (to avoid taxing a driver to Shrewsbury) as TfW are planning to do from December. His response to this claimed that it "would be an operational challenge for those drivers to be competent on more than one system." Presumably Machynlleth drivers are competent on conventional signalling (as well as ETCS) and similarly those drivers working the Great Northern and Heathrow ETCS projects mentioned above must also be competent on both systems - or is the Cambrian the only route which is ETCS without lineside signals?

I don’t know the exact details but I think something like Crewe - Manchester is apparently being looked at next for ETCS. Have heard this from multiple sources but perhaps someone can give better details.

Originally, when ETCS came in, the Cambrian was restricted to just Mach and Pwllheli drivers, whilst Mach drivers stopped signing to Birmingham. This was, as I understand, to reduce the risk of operational incidents from going between two types of signalling.

The Cambrian has no line side signals once your under ETCS. There is a ‘transition point’ A couple miles onto the Cambrian where the system automatically switches over.
When heading to Shrewsbury, you transition to Level 0 at about 60mph, acknowledge it on the in-cab display and then there is a colour light distant signal, then 2 home signals at which point we are down to 20mph to go over onto the mainline which is then 30mph until English bridge junction where it becomes 15mph.
So it’s a very limited amount of driving under conventional signalling.

These days as you say, other TOC’s will have drivers running on ETCS with conventional overlay and signing routes without ETCS at all so these days I don’t think that argument should be so relevant any more.
Personally I’d love to sign some conventional routes aswell, even if it was just Birmingham!

 

[AdamWW]

His response to this claimed that it "would be an operational challenge for those drivers to be competent on more than one system." Presumably Machynlleth drivers are competent on conventional signalling (as well as ETCS) and similarly those drivers working the Great Northern and Heathrow ETCS projects mentioned above must also be competent on both systems - or is the Cambrian the only route which is ETCS without lineside signals?

It does say "those drivers", which I read as saying they didn't want to have to train up drivers from Shrewsbury on both systems, not that having any driver cope with both systems would be a challenge.

 

[craigybagel]

If I recall correctly, at the time of the initial announcement it was thought that all 77 class 197s would have ETCS, but ever since an official total was announced TfW have always stated that 21 units would be ETCS fitted I think.

I think that was a misinterpretation - all the sets are ETCS ready, some degree of wiring has taken place, you even get a warning on the TCMS screen that there's an ERTMS fault on the units that don't have it installed, and it looks like the dash has been designed to make it easy to switch out the analogue speedometer for a digital one. It's been a while since I've been able to drive 003 for a comparison though.

Have I missed something about the roll-out of ETCS on another route served by TfW? As far as I was aware, the only planned ETCS deployments making any headway were the tunnels into Heathrow (now live if I recall correctly) and the East Coast Digital Programme (a short stretch used only by Great Northern having already gone live with sections further north to follow but as an overlay with lineside signals remaining in place). Regarding the Cambrian, my understanding is that Machynlleth depot cannot accomodate 3-car units and only Machynlleth and Pwllheli drivers now sign the Cambrian. Also, I recently wrote to James Price at TfW; one of my points being a suggestion that Shrewsbury drivers should be trainned to work to Machynlleth or Aberystwyth, rather than cutting the first morning Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth working to start from Welshpool (to avoid taxing a driver to Shrewsbury) as TfW are planning to do from December. His response to this claimed that it "would be an operational challenge for those drivers to be competent on more than one system." Presumably Machynlleth drivers are competent on conventional signalling (as well as ETCS) and similarly those drivers working the Great Northern and Heathrow ETCS projects mentioned above must also be competent on both systems - or is the Cambrian the only route which is ETCS without lineside signals?

I don’t know the exact details but I think something like Crewe - Manchester is apparently being looked at next for ETCS. Have heard this from multiple sources but perhaps someone can give better details.

Parts of the WCML north of Crewe is expected to get ETCS in the next few years. This would potentially effect the North Wales - Manchester services, which use the route for a short distance either side of Warrington and is signed by Chester, Llandudno Junction and Holyhead drivers, and the Crewe - Warrington section which is signed by Crewe drivers and is much longer, but only normally used for ECS and diverted services.

There are rumours of Crewe - Manchester getting resignalled as well, as despite it being resignalled relatively recently the Ansaldo hardware used suffers from appalling reliability. I'd be surprised if they ever actually bit the bullet and made it happen though.

Originally, when ETCS came in, the Cambrian was restricted to just Mach and Pwllheli drivers, whilst Mach drivers stopped signing to Birmingham. This was, as I understand, to reduce the risk of operational incidents from going between two types of signalling.

These days as you say, other TOC’s will have drivers running on ETCS with conventional overlay and signing routes without ETCS at all so these days I don’t think that argument should be so relevant any more.
Personally I’d love to sign some conventional routes aswell, even if it was just Birmingham!

It does say "those drivers", which I read as saying they didn't want to have to train up drivers from Shrewsbury on both systems, not that having any driver cope with both systems would be a challenge.

As I understand it (it's a little before my time) the story goes as follows:

When the Shrewsbury depot originally opened under ATW, nearly all the drivers were new starters, and there was a feeling that having them learning NSTR (Heart of Wales), AB (Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury - Crewe - Chester) and RETB (Cambrian), on top of the extremely complex mechanical signalling at their home depot, was all a bit much. The Cambrian work instead went to one link at Crewe.

Years later, with the introduction of ERTMS, Network Rail agreed to pay for the training of a certain amount of drivers, which was enough to cover all of Machynlleth and Pwllheli depots, but only half of the link at Crewe that signed the Cambrian. So the Cambrian was split operationally, with only Mach (and later Pwllheli) drivers working west of Shrewsbury, and Crewe learnt Birmingham so they could work services east of Shrewsbury alongside Shrewsbury and Chester drivers.

 

[50002Superb]

Thats good news that the Standard Plus upgrade will soon be rolled out. I assume for diagramming purposes the standard plus will be different from the normal 3 car diagrams to ensure the right sets are used on the right services.

I only need 197117 and 197125 out of those in service. Hopefully I will get those soon and the other 5 that should be in service soon I hope.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==


I wonder what the hold up getting those 5 into service? They seemed to introduce several new ones into service in quick succession and then nothing for a few months.

Just to confirm that 197121 is now at Chester depot.

 

[BillStampy]

Just to confirm that 197121 is now at Chester depot.

Doesn't look as if it's going back as of right now, hopefully we can get it in service!

 

[Jez]

Just to confirm that 197121 is now at Chester depot.

Thanks. Hopefully will enter service soon.

 

[sd0733]

197122 is the first unit to be fitted with Full Standard Plus branding, very similar to the first class on Mk4s.

AFAIK it still won't be in use just yet but won't be far away now where the free upgrades will end.

 

[Western 52]

I find the seats in standard plus very comfortable and roomy. The only thing that lets it down is the poor riding. Yesterday I did Crewe to Cardiff in 197120 and the riding was some of the roughest I've had on these units. Hopefully they can do something about this.

 

[Lurcheroo]

197122 is the first unit to be fitted with Full Standard Plus branding, very similar to the first class on Mk4s.

AFAIK it still won't be in use just yet but won't be far away now where the free upgrades will end.

Good to know!

I find the seats in standard plus very comfortable and roomy. The only thing that lets it down is the poor riding. Yesterday I did Crewe to Cardiff in 197120 and the riding was some of the roughest I've had on these units. Hopefully they can do something about this.

Genuine question that’s not intended to come across snarky.
Have you complained to TFW about it?

It is definitely solvable in a “where there’s a Will there’s a way” sense, as other trains don’t have such a poor ride. It just depends on how difficult it is to solve, how much it will cost, who’s paying and If there’s a reason. I.E it’s putting passengers off travelling (but TFW have to be aware of that).

 

[Topological]

Something wrong with the original 1W12 today as it seemed to leave Cardiff on time then be 9 down by Cardiff East. RTT shows that it stopped at Newport and a new unit put on from there.

Could not tell how 197005 got to Newport to take over, but very glad that it was able to.

RTT Link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40524/2024-08-07/detailed#allox_id=1

 

[Andy Pacer]

Something wrong with the original 1W12 today as it seemed to leave Cardiff on time then be 9 down by Cardiff East. RTT shows that it stopped at Newport and a new unit put on from there.

Could not tell how 197005 got to Newport to take over, but very glad that it was able to.

RTT Link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40524/2024-08-07/detailed#allox_id=1

Pulled from the Severn Tunnel Junction service

Realtime Trains | 2G42 0610 Cardiff Central to Newport (South Wales) | 07/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 2G42 0610 departure from Cardiff Central to Newport (South Wales) on 07/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Lurcheroo]

Something wrong with the original 1W12 today as it seemed to leave Cardiff on time then be 9 down by Cardiff East. RTT shows that it stopped at Newport and a new unit put on from there.

Could not tell how 197005 got to Newport to take over, but very glad that it was able to.

RTT Link: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40524/2024-08-07/detailed#allox_id=1

197048 sent to Canton last night with an engine out and it’s been sent back out today in the same condition and nobody knew about it.

 

[Topological]

197048 sent to Canton last night with an engine out and it’s been sent back out today in the same condition and nobody knew about it.

Genius, though good that they spotted it eventually. Thank you for being honest about what happened.

Now terminating the replacement at Wilmslow. Looks like everyone will be squeezing onto 1W13. It is a shame they haven't found a way to turn round at Stockport when late really.

Watch now for a 59 minute delay... Got to laugh

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2024 ==

Pulled from the Severn Tunnel Junction service

Realtime Trains | 2G42 0610 Cardiff Central to Newport (South Wales) | 07/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 2G42 0610 departure from Cardiff Central to Newport (South Wales) on 07/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Thanks, hope that the Severn Tunnel people will be ok waiting for the GWR

 

[sd0733]

It is a shame they haven't found a way to turn round at Stockport when late really.

I've turned round at Stockport once, getting everyone off and shunting onto the viaduct took longer than it would have done to get to Piccadilly and back, it's also blocking a platform while locked up and unloaded so isn't really viable.

 

[Topological]

I've turned round at Stockport once, getting everyone off and shunting onto the viaduct took longer than it would have done to get to Piccadilly and back, it's also blocking a platform while locked up and unloaded so isn't really viable.

I know it does not work practically (well perhaps not since they infilled the south bays), but there would be more options for getting to Manchester than Wilmslow where you end up with a 30 minute wait and the subsequent hours TfW.

To be fair, it is a long time since I had to do the Wilmslow change and I was impressed the 197 was found to run 1W12 when the first failed.

Hopefully 197048 will be feeling better soon as well.

 

[craigybagel]

I know it does not work practically (well perhaps not since they infilled the south bays), but there would be more options for getting to Manchester than Wilmslow where you end up with a 30 minute wait and the subsequent hours TfW.

To be fair, it is a long time since I had to do the Wilmslow change and I was impressed the 197 was found to run 1W12 when the first failed.

Hopefully 197048 will be feeling better soon as well.

Usually if you're late enough for a Wilmslow turn back, the Avanti London - Manchester isn't too far behind with lots of space to pick everyone up.

 

[Topological]

Usually if you're late enough for a Wilmslow turn back, the Avanti London - Manchester isn't too far behind with lots of space to pick everyone up.

I see, for some reason there is no Avanti at 09:25 (which would have been 5 minutes after 1W12 arrived). It does not show as cancelled on RTT either, so maybe that is a genuine timetable gap.

In all the times I have got stuck at Wilmslow going North there has not been an Avanti, so I had not realised there is an Avanti most hours.

 

[Kite159]

Usually if you're late enough for a Wilmslow turn back, the Avanti London - Manchester isn't too far behind with lots of space to pick everyone up.

The big issue is unless you are on the ball* chances are by the time news filters through at Piccadilly that the XX;30 to Cardiff is starting at Wilmslow there is nothing you can catch which connects with it (considering the last connection is normally the XX:06 Crewe stopper)

(*Ie you notice the inbound is running significantly late and you are at Piccadilly in good time)

 

[Bikeman78]

(*Ie you notice the inbound is running significantly late and you are at Piccadilly in good time)

I always check the inbound train and have advised many other people to do the same. They have all been grateful for the advice.

 

[craigybagel]

I see, for some reason there is no Avanti at 09:25 (which would have been 5 minutes after 1W12 arrived). It does not show as cancelled on RTT either, so maybe that is a genuine timetable gap.

In all the times I have got stuck at Wilmslow going North there has not been an Avanti, so I had not realised there is an Avanti most hours.

There is normally - it's been removed today from RTT today for some reason

If the Avanti is on time it usually ends up being the next option by default - if it's too long a wait for it then the TfW probably isn't late enough to get turned back at Wilmslow, and if the TfW is so late it ends up running behind the Avanti it'll probably get turned back at Crewe instead.

The big issue is unless you are on the ball* chances are by the time news filters through at Piccadilly that the XX;30 to Cardiff is starting at Wilmslow there is nothing you can catch which connects with it (considering the last connection is normally the XX:06 Crewe stopper)

(*Ie you notice the inbound is running significantly late and you are at Piccadilly in good time)

True, it is more of an issue in that direction - I was just replying to a comment in the context of a passenger travelling North. For most Manchester passengers it ends up being an hour's wait for the next service unfortunately.

 

[Topological]

There is normally - it's been removed today from RTT today for some reason

If the Avanti is on time it usually ends up being the next option by default - if it's too long a wait for it then the TfW probably isn't late enough to get turned back at Wilmslow, and if the TfW is so late it ends up running behind the Avanti it'll probably get turned back at Crewe instead.

True, it is more of an issue in that direction - I was just replying to a comment in the context of a passenger travelling North. For most Manchester passengers it ends up being an hour's wait for the next service unfortunately.

Curious to know how it disappears from even the CAN list.

I do agree it is less of an issue when there is an Avanti to fall back on.

Going south checking RTT for the northbound progress has become a habit since the 153s and 150s could not keep time, thankfully the 197s are much better at making up delays so there have not been as many Wilmslow turn around, still aim to be at Piccadilly by 00 for the 30 minutes past if there are even small delays at Shrewsbury though just in case.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There is normally - it's been removed today from RTT today for some reason

Curious to know how it disappears from even the CAN list.

I can see it, cancelled (VCN) due to train crew.

Realtime Trains | 1H62 0733 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly | 07/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 1H62 0733 departure from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on 07/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bob Price]

3Q53 heading from Crewe to Dovey Junction Down loop today and return.

Realtime Trains | 3Q53 1017 Crewe South Yard to Dovey Junction Down Loop | 08/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 3Q53 1017 departure from Crewe South Yard to Dovey Junction Down Loop on 08/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Christian Schm]

I find the seats in standard plus very comfortable and roomy.

Yeah, I am very happy with TfW on that. After GWR introduced the IETs with their very hard seats TfW determined that they didn't want those and changed their order to something more comfy.

 

[Krokodil]

Yeah, I am very happy with TfW on that. After GWR introduced the IETs with their very hard seats TfW determined that they didn't want those and changed their order to something more comfy.

Would have been worse, the original seats for the 197s would have been the same as the 195s

 

[WirralLine]

197048 sent to Canton last night with an engine out and it’s been sent back out today in the same condition and nobody knew about it.

Tagged onto 1W94 to Chester today with 197043. 048 to detach at Chester and head to CAF while 043 continues solo to Holyhead.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Tagged onto 1W94 to Chester today with 197043. 048 to detach at Chester and head to CAF while 043 continues solo to Holyhead.

Finally getting somewhere with that one then!

 

[BillStampy]

197121 is finally (I think this its first appearance) entering service, ironically replacing a MK4 set, HD01, which is headed off to Crewe. On 1V98!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Would have been worse, the original seats for the 197s would have been the same as the 195s

I actually think the seats on the 195s are pretty comfortable, but I'm going to run away now before this turns into another seats thread