CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[pokemonsuper9]

there are actually good sound reasons behind unit allocation and TfW aren't just throwing units at the dart board? Who'd have thought.

Since Northern apparently do it (the choice between 150 or 156 around Manc seems to be fully random) I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Dai Corner]

I've read elsewhere that Canton drivers sometimes have to wander round looking for a unit that's actually fuelled and ready to go, regardless of what's booked/allocated. Perhaps Chester is just as disorganised?

I've read somewhere that the Earth is flat

Found it. My memory wasn't quite accurate, but the impression is one of disorganisation.

If Control are short-staffed it often ends up being down to the shed drivers to try and work out which units need fuel and get them matched to the morning departures. They have little information available to them so the Controller who comes in at 7am then has to sort out any wrinkles, set-swapping to make sure that units don't run short of fuel and get to depots in time for exams.

 

[sd0733]

Since Northern apparently do it (the choice between 150 or 156 around Manc seems to be fully random) I wouldn't be surprised.

A 2 car 150 and a 2 car 156 operationally don't make a huge difference operationally, crewing knowledge permitting. At TfW almost the same applies where outside the valleys a 150 or a pair of 153s aren't far off classed as 1 and the same

Other units are totally different with different formations permitted, different couplings etc and where it ends up, most of the TfW diagrams outside the valleys don't go back to where they start so chucking out units on a whim is a total non starter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

Found it. My memory wasn't quite accurate, but the impression is one of disorganisation.

Maybe in the valleys that can happen where almost all diagrams are 150s that start and finish at Canton but start doing that elsewhere would end up an unworkable mess. Shortages do lead to some odd allocations but it's not done through choice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

I've read somewhere that the Earth is flat

So once again, contrary to certain posters all too hasty conclusions, there are actually good sound reasons behind unit allocation and TfW aren't just throwing units at the dart board? Who'd have thought.

You would think that was the case on here!

 

[Rhys4567]

Conwy valley services been very busy last few weeks. I use the service 3-4 times a week.
Healthy numbers at all request stops and a good 100 or more getting on and off at Betws usually.
Few days this week where many people had to stand on the mid morning, mid afternoon and early evening services in both directions.
Plenty of families, backpackers, cyclists and a healthy number of local faces too.
The 3 cars on today were well filled with only a handful of empty seats so no one had to stand today at least.

 

[sd0733]

The first 197s are booked Cardiff to Manchester tomorrow.

The pair that work down on 1V95 10:40 from Holyhead before shunting to Plats 1 and 2 and forming 1W22 15:49 Cardiff to Manchester Pic 4 car which then splits in Manchester

Rear 2 car on arrival then forms 19:30 Manchester to Cardiff, Front 2 car forms 20:30 Manchester to Cardiff.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The first 197s are booked Cardiff to Manchester tomorrow.

The pair that work down on 1V95 10:40 from Holyhead before shunting to Plats 1 and 2 and forming 1W22 15:49 Cardiff to Manchester Pic 4 car which then splits in Manchester

Rear 2 car on arrival then forms 19:30 Manchester to Cardiff, Front 2 car forms 20:30 Manchester to Cardiff.

Thought it may be as such. Hope more services can be introduced to have them soon!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The first 197s are booked Cardiff to Manchester tomorrow.

The pair that work down on 1V95 10:40 from Holyhead before shunting to Plats 1 and 2 and forming 1W22 15:49 Cardiff to Manchester Pic 4 car which then splits in Manchester

Rear 2 car on arrival then forms 19:30 Manchester to Cardiff, Front 2 car forms 20:30 Manchester to Cardiff.

What’s working the return to Chester (and beyond if applicable) currently formed by one of the 1V95 197s then? Please don’t say a Canton sprinter.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Is there an ultimate plan for how/where the fleet will be utilised once fully introduced?

Other than the various announcements regarding 5-cars between Swansea and Manchester, I think the nearest thing to a deployment plan that has been publicly released is the draft December 2023 timetable which was published for consultation a while back.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Other than the various announcements regarding 5-cars between Swansea and Manchester, I think the nearest thing to a deployment plan that has been publicly released is the draft December 2023 timetable which was published for consultation a while back.

Which will only happen if TfW move the 231s and get a move on with the 197s, and magically render the 230s usuable.

 

[sd0733]

What’s working the return to Chester (and beyond if applicable) currently formed by one of the 1V95 197s then? Please don’t say a Canton sprinter.

Both the 2 evening Cardiff-Chesters are still booked 2 car 197s.
Does seem to have been a few changes tomorrow: 05:12 Cardiff to Llandudno goes to a 197, 06:48 to Holyhead goes to a 3 car 175, 09:22/19:34 to Holyhead revert to a 158, 11:25 goes from 1x 150 to 2x 150. 13:22 (2 car), 15:23 (4 car), 16:22 (2 car), 18:22 (2 car) to Chester and beyond all booked 197s

 

[Jez]

Both the 2 evening Cardiff-Chesters are still booked 2 car 197s.
Does seem to have been a few changes tomorrow: 05:12 Cardiff to Llandudno goes to a 197, 06:48 to Holyhead goes to a 3 car 175, 09:22/19:34 to Holyhead revert to a 158, 11:25 goes from 1x 150 to 2x 150. 13:22 (2 car), 15:23 (4 car), 16:22 (2 car), 18:22 (2 car) to Chester and beyond all booked 197s

So.there isn't really an increase in 197 workings if some that were previously 197 to Holyhead have reverted to a 175 or 158.

 

[sd0733]

So.there isn't really an increase in 197 workings if some that were previously 197 to Holyhead have reverted to a 175 or 158.

Theres 1 extra diagram so 21 in total but a lot of it is just re-jigging current diagrams.

 

[Krokodil]

Maybe in the valleys that can happen where almost all diagrams are 150s that start and finish at Canton but start doing that elsewhere would end up an unworkable mess. Shortages do lead to some odd allocations but it's not done through choice.

The poster was referring to the chaos when Control are short-staffed overnight with desks uncovered. And yes, the early shift did have to swap things around to sort out the mess.

 

[sd0733]

The poster was referring to the chaos when Control are short-staffed overnight with desks uncovered. And yes, the early shift did have to swap things around to sort out the mess.

Im sure it has happened with the odd day and diagram, ive seen the firefighting that has to happen with unit swaps galore to get everything back where it should be. There seems to be an implication on here though that its an almost daily occurance and drivers just take whatever works.

 

[Krokodil]

Im sure it has happened with the odd day and diagram, ive seen the firefighting that has to happen with unit swaps galore to get everything back where it should be. There seems to be an implication on here though that its an almost daily occurance and drivers just take whatever works.

Yeah, that's definitely cobblers, it was one pretty bad day recently. The PP added 2+2 and got 5.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yeah, that's definitely cobblers, it was one pretty bad day recently. The PP added 2+2 and got 5.

It was the word 'often' that made me assume it was more than a one-off occurrence. If that's wrong, then apologies.

To satisfy my curiosity, are units (and traincrew?) allocated to diagrams the day before or is there a longer term plan (albeit subject to failures, unplanned absences etc)?

 

[Caaardiff]

It was the word 'often' that made me assume it was more than a one-off occurrence. If that's wrong, then apologies.

To satisfy my curiosity, are units (and traincrew?) allocated to diagrams the day before or is there a longer term plan (albeit subject to failures, unplanned absences etc)?

It's impossible to plan ahead more than 24 hours, especially with the unit availability issues. You can pretty much guarantee a unit that starts in one diagram will very likely not still be in that diagram by the end of the day, regardless of how much planning you put into it. The same with train crew, on the day sickness or disruption can throw the best laid plans into the air. As a post has said, it's a constant firefight.
The impression that some posters give that they can do a better job is astounding.
Anyway, back on topic.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's impossible to plan ahead more than 24 hours, especially with the unit availability issues. You can pretty much guarantee a unit that starts in one diagram will very likely not still be in that diagram by the end of the day, regardless of how much planning you put into it. The same with train crew, on the day sickness or disruption can throw the best laid plans into the air. As a post has said, it's a constant firefight.
The impression that some posters give that they can do a better job is astounding.
Anyway, back on topic.

None of this is affecting the introduction of the 197s though? (back on topic).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

None of this is affecting the introduction of the 197s though? (back on topic).

I’ve noticed many of the 197s starting up north get allocated the night before, considerably earlier than most at Canton which normally get them at 3/4am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

The first 197s are booked Cardiff to Manchester tomorrow.

The pair that work down on 1V95 10:40 from Holyhead before shunting to Plats 1 and 2 and forming 1W22 15:49 Cardiff to Manchester Pic 4 car which then splits in Manchester

Rear 2 car on arrival then forms 19:30 Manchester to Cardiff, Front 2 car forms 20:30 Manchester to Cardiff.

No 10:40 is showing in RTT. In fact, there’s a weird appalling sudden gap between 06:24 and 11:33!!



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

So once again, contrary to certain posters all too hasty conclusions, there are actually good sound reasons behind unit allocation and TfW aren't just throwing units at the dart board? Who'd have thought.

What are you getting sarky and defensive for?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

No 10:40 is showing in RTT. In fact, there’s a weird appalling sudden gap between 06:24 and 11:33!!

Realtime Trains | 1V95 1040 Holyhead to Chester | 14/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 1V95 1040 departure from Holyhead to Chester on 14/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Something's been cut short

 

[Dai Corner]

I’ve noticed many of the 197s starting up north get allocated the night before, considerably earlier than most at Canton which normally get them at 3/4am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==


No 10:40 is showing in RTT. In fact, there’s a weird appalling sudden gap between 06:24 and 11:33!!

View attachment 140936

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==


What are you getting sarky and defensive for?

Journeycheck says the 0805 will terminate at Chester and the 1040 at Shrewsbury, both due 'a shortage of train drivers'. Perhaps actually a shortage of drivers who sign both 197s and the Marches?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Realtime Trains | 1V95 1040 Holyhead to Chester | 14/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 1V95 1040 departure from Holyhead to Chester on 14/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Something's been cut short

I can see that, as is becoming very very common on TfW (yet some continue to have the gall to get visibly outraged and defensive when the helpless TOC is criticised) and what I want to know is why, yet again, it has been put into the data feeds as though it were always this way, and as though it is a scheduled Holyhead Chester service. It is not. It is a Holyhead Cardiff service which appears to have been curtailed at Chester, so why on earth isn’t it showing as that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==

Journeycheck says the 0805 will terminate at Chester and the 1040 at Shrewsbury, both due 'a shortage of train drivers'. Perhaps actually a shortage of drivers who sign both 197s and the Marches?

Yes, I might of known the trained driver shortage scandal would be behind it, but why on earth isn’t it showing as a Holyhead Cardiff service cancelled from Chester/Shrewsbury?

RTT from the Marches stations don’t show a cancellation at all, just as if the service never existed. P-Coding?? Transpennine got publicly slapped on the wrist for this, and Drakeford’s “greatly-improved” nationalised railway should also be unable to get away with it.

 

[Dai Corner]

I can see that, as is becoming very very common on TfW (yet some continue to have the gall to get visibly outraged and defensive when the helpless TOC is criticised) and what I want to know is why, yet again, it has been put into the data feeds as though it were always this way, and as though it is a scheduled Holyhead Chester service. It is not. It is a Holyhead Cardiff service which appears to have been curtailed at Chester, so why on earth isn’t it showing as that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2023 ==


Yes, I might of known the trained driver shortage scandal would be behind it, but why on earth isn’t it showing as a Holyhead Cardiff service cancelled from Chester/Shrewsbury?

RTT from the Marches stations don’t show a cancellation at all, just as if the service never existed. P-Coding?? Transpennine got publicly slapped on the wrist for this, and Drakeford’s “greatly-improved” nationalised railway should also be unable to get away with it.

To avoid paying Delay Repay to affected passengers. That subject has been discussed at length before, though mainly in relation to the English TOCs.

Welcome to the nationalised railway where there aren't even any sanctions for doing this.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To avoid paying Delay Repay to affected passengers. That subject has been discussed at length before, though mainly in relation to the English TOCs.

A disgraceful farce.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2023 ==

Meanwhile, the genius powers that be, have again allocated 5 carriages to 1V92 from Chester - one that survived the cheeky P CODING - and due to the failure to sign off 5 cars on the route, we'll have either another case of rear set being locked out, or the additional coaches not being attached. And those coaches will be even more needed today, with 2 cancellations.

 

[Krokodil]

It was the word 'often' that made me assume it was more than a one-off occurrence. If that's wrong, then apologies.

Uncovered turns in Control and Booking On Points seem to be more common than they used to be. The main thing that was cobblers was the idea that drivers are just randomly looking for a unit with fuel to take out in the morning. No, what has been happening is that the shed & ferry drivers who do movements between the station, the yard, and the depot have had to start working out the plan (which units need to go for fuel, which ones need to go onto the depot) themselves.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Uncovered turns in Control and Booking On Points seem to be more common than they used to be. The main thing that was cobblers was the idea that drivers are just randomly looking for a unit with fuel to take out in the morning. No, what has been happening is that the shed & ferry drivers who do movements between the station, the yard, and the depot have had to start working out the plan (which units need to go for fuel, which ones need to go onto the depot) themselves.

I think that was probably said more tongue-in-cheek than seriously, based on the unavailability of many TfW fleets

 

[Dai Corner]

I think that was probably said more tongue-in-cheek than seriously, based on the unavailability of many TfW fleets

Partly tongue in cheek, partly from what turned to be inaccurate memory as I couldn't find the original post.

Either way, it sounds pretty disorganised for what this layman thought was a highly organised industry. It's interesting to learn that there are shortages of controllers and traincrew supervisors as well as drivers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Either way, it sounds pretty disorganised for what this layman thought was a highly organised industry. It's interesting to learn that there are shortages of controllers and traincrew supervisors as well as drivers.

The TOC is currently all over the place, it’s an incompetent nightmare of a company that would likely have been given all sorts of OLR warnings had it not been taken in-Senedd. I’m not denying that their staff work incredibly hard, and I have so much respect for really lovely members like @sd0733 (a forum favourite of mine) and the others, but something has to be going wrong with the way TfW and its services are being managed. It’s possibly a senior issue caused by the upper powers that be.

If anything, at the very least I wish they’d be honest. The fact they can’t even cancel a train they aren’t able to run, and instead P-CODE and pretend it never existed is what seems so underhand to me. I know TPE and LNER are as bad, mind.

For lovers of 197s, and this is the right thread for this news, we have single two-carriage 197001 standing in for a 67+MK4 set on the daily (should be thrice-daily but that’s another failure for another time) Holyhead Cardiff service today.

197001 will then continue the diagram and thus be the first 197 to work a Cardiff Manchester service in lieu of the booked MK4, on the 1052 to Piccadilly. Ironically, I’m not sure if the booked 197s to Cardiff (1550) will now materialise as 197s, as they form from a P-CODED Holyhead service which will terminate short at Chester today, but the MK4 unavailability does mean that one will definitely go to Manchester anyway.

EDIT: Swapsies! 197001 will now do 1855 CDF - MAN, and 197021 is now covering the 67 on 1555 CDF - MAN.

 

[sd0733]

I have so much respect for really lovely members like @sd0733 (a forum favourite of mine) and the others

Thanks! I try my best

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2023 ==

For lovers of 197s, and this is the right thread for this news, we have single two-carriage 197001 standing in for a 67+MK4 set on the daily (should be thrice-daily but that’s another failure for another time) Holyhead Cardiff service today.

197001 will then continue the diagram and thus be the first 197 to work a Cardiff Manchester service in lieu of the booked MK4, on the 1052 to Piccadilly. Ironically, I’m not sure if the booked 197s to Cardiff (1550) will now materialise as 197s, as they form from a P-CODED Holyhead service which will terminate short at Chester today, but the MK4 unavailability does mean that one will definitely go to Manchester

It is hoped that 1W57 will be a Mk4 set, the one which never went on Friday to Holyhead but is dependent on staffing at Canton to get it ready.
If that does go as planned then at least there's a 197 in place to form half of 1W22!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2023 ==

1955 booked 197 is currently unallocated.

If that's from Newport so the 1941 from Cardiff to Holyhead then that's a 158 diagram again. I did put the changes somewhere but there's so many threads im getting confused .

Edit: There they are: Does seem to have been a few changes tomorrow: 05:12 Cardiff to Llandudno goes to a 197, 06:48 to Holyhead goes to a 3 car 175, 09:22/19:41 to Holyhead revert to a 158, 11:25 goes from 1x 150 to 2x 150. 13:22 (2 car), 15:23 (4 car), 16:22 (2 car), 18:22 (2 car) to Chester and beyond all booked 197s

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thanks! I try my best

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2023 ==


It is hoped that 1W57 will be a Mk4 set, the one which never went on Friday to Holyhead but is dependent on staffing at Canton to get it ready.
If that does go as planned then at least there's a 197 in place to form half of 1W22!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2023 ==


If that's from Newport so the 1941 from Cardiff to Holyhead then that's a 158 diagram again. I did put the changes somewhere but there's so many threads im getting confused

Sorry, I meant the second of the two booked Manchester but I had got my directions mixed up! 1955 to Manchester, but of course it's 1930 FROM Manchester booked 197.

Apparently:
1052 Cardiff to Manchester - 197021 in lieu of 67+MK4
1549 Cardiff to Manchester - 197010 197 as booked (but short formed)
1855 Cardiff to Manchester - 197001 in lieu of 67+MK4
are the booked 197 Manchesters at the moment, according to RTT.