CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[craigybagel]

Didn't catch the numbers, but I passed 3x2 car sets heading south on the Marches today - presumably more sets available for South/West Wales training and route proving?

 

[sonic2009]

I'm surprised to hear Cardiff guards work Crewe to Chester considering they don't work Crewe to Manchester.

Could it be they sign Crewe - Chester for when the South Wales services start Crewe and divert Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury when the route via Nantwich is shut?

 

[Krokodil]

Cardiff guards do indeed sign Crewe-Chester which is useful when diversions happen (which can work either way, both on a planned basis and as a response to disruption). Unfortunately the drivers do not which is a pain when the LHCS needs to be diverted at short notice and there's no Crewe/Holyhead driver available at Chester to do the missing bit.

 

[craigybagel]

Could it be they sign Crewe - Chester for when the South Wales services start Crewe and divert Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury when the route via Nantwich is shut?

Cardiff guards do indeed sign Crewe-Chester which is useful when diversions happen (which can work either way, both on a planned basis and as a response to disruption). Unfortunately the drivers do not which is a pain when the LHCS needs to be diverted at short notice and there's no Crewe/Holyhead driver available at Chester to do the missing bit.

Whilst it does provide a handy diversion option at times (subject to the service not being worked by a Cardiff driver as mentioned above), I think the main benefit is productivity. Cardiff - Crewe/Chester and return is a bit short of the ideal 8:45 average day length on a 35 hour 4 day week - but doesn't leave a lot of options for extra work once you get back to Cardiff. Throw in a bit of work on the shuttle in the middle of the day and all of a sudden the day is a lot more productive. And all it costs is one extra day route learning for the guards involved.

For all 5 driver depots and 6 guards depots involved, an hour or two on the shuttle is a nice filler. The downside is it means lots of people need to sign the traction. Not an issue with 150s or 153s that everyone outside the Cambrian signs anyway, but it will complicate introducing 197s on the route. I believe it's also one of the reasons why the plan to temporarily put 230s on there was abandoned.

 

[Krokodil]

On the subject of diversions, Chester drivers lost Crewe-Shrewsbury last year. Which I'm sure gave the roster clerks a headache when 175008 had a visit from the Thermal Incident Brigade and blocked the route through Wrexham for several hours. Not to mention the recent closure of Gobowen box due to sickness resulting in a full day shift worth of diversions.

 

[Jez]

Could it be they sign Crewe - Chester for when the South Wales services start Crewe and divert Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury when the route via Nantwich is shut?

Yes thats a good point, as before now when Shrewsbury-Crewe line was closed I've done Cardiff-Manchester going via Wrexham,Chester and then to Crewe. So it makes sense I guess.

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Whilst it does provide a handy diversion option at times (subject to the service not being worked by a Cardiff driver as mentioned above), I think the main benefit is productivity. Cardiff - Crewe/Chester and return is a bit short of the ideal 8:45 average day length on a 35 hour 4 day week - but doesn't leave a lot of options for extra work once you get back to Cardiff. Throw in a bit of work on the shuttle in the middle of the day and all of a sudden the day is a lot more productive. And all it costs is one extra day route learning for the guards involved.

For all 5 driver depots and 6 guards depots involved, an hour or two on the shuttle is a nice filler. The downside is it means lots of people need to sign the traction. Not an issue with 150s or 153s that everyone outside the Cambrian signs anyway, but it will complicate introducing 197s on the route. I believe it's also one of the reasons why the plan to temporarily put 230s on there was abandoned.

Wont all depots apart from Cardiff Valley lines need to sign the 197s eventually anyway? So it shouldnt be a problem putting them on the crewe shuttle or the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle either.

 

[craigybagel]

Wont all depots apart from Cardiff Valley lines need to sign the 197s eventually anyway? So it shouldnt be a problem putting them on the crewe shuttle or the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle either.

Eventually yes, and 197s are planned to be used on the shuttle. My point is that despite the large amount of crews trained at Holyhead, Llandudno Junction and Chester, you won't be able to introduce them on the shuttle until more crews are trained at Crewe, Shrewsbury and Cardiff. And whilst that is currently ongoing, there's a way to go yet before there's enough to run the service.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Didn't catch the numbers, but I passed 3x2 car sets heading south on the Marches today - presumably more sets available for South/West Wales training and route proving?

008 011 018. They are doing the weekly unit swap to Cardiff / Carmarthen to keep to maintenance schedules at CAF. 009 013 015 went up yesterday. Training will continue as last week.

 

[Jez]

Eventually yes, and 197s are planned to be used on the shuttle. My point is that despite the large amount of crews trained at Holyhead, Llandudno Junction and Chester, you won't be able to introduce them on the shuttle until more crews are trained at Crewe, Shrewsbury and Cardiff. And whilst that is currently ongoing, there's a way to go yet before there's enough to run the service.

Thanks. That makes more sense.

I am surprised Cardiff don't sign all the way to Manchester given they sign to Chester both via Crewe and Wrexham. As the majority of services on the route from Cardiff go to Manchester.

 

[craigybagel]

008 011 018. They are doing the weekly unit swap to Cardiff / Carmarthen to keep to maintenance schedules at CAF. 009 013 015 went up yesterday. Training will continue as last week.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I am surprised Cardiff don't sign all the way to Manchester given they sign to Chester both via Crewe and Wrexham. As the majority of services on the route from Cardiff go to Manchester.

They used to going back a decade or more but there's no real need now - Crewe (both grades) and Shrewsbury (drivers only) have that covered between them. Cardiff don't even have all that much work between Shrewsbury and Crewe on the Manchester services these days, for a depot of their size. They do have a small bit of work on the Crewe - Shrewsbury local service however, which will as with the Chester shuttle impact upon the timing of switching to 197 operation.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I have heard that there may be some south wales routes switching to 197s in May. I've heard swanline mentioned but does anyone know if any others may change over or whether this is just wobble?

 

[craigybagel]

I have heard that there may be some south wales routes switching to 197s in May. I've heard swanline mentioned but does anyone know if any others may change over or whether this is just wobble?

The now deleted proposed timetable for December 2023 showed Swanline as being the last hold out for 153s other than the HOWL, but that's not to say that plans can't change.

I had heard rumours in the past that Cheltenham might get them soon to release 170s, but really who knows?

 

[Jez]

Well TFW will be losing the 170s and 175s soon so it makes sense to introduce more 197s to help cover that. If enough Cardiff train crew are trained by May then they could do Swanline, Maesteg-Cheltenham, Ebbw Vale and some Cardiff-Holyheads. None of those involve Carmarthen depot I dont think

Is Swanline returning properly from May and will it be 2 hourly or hourly? I know the Dec 2023 TT said it was planned to be hourly with 153 pairs temporary until the 197s. The current two Swanlines actually go to Chester so its possible this could continue to return the 197s to Chester depot.

Swanline and Pembroke Dock were both still pairs of 153s in the Dec 23 TT (along with HOWL.) Both will then change over to 197s at some point with the HOWL staying as 153 long term

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EDIT - A quick look at RTT shows Swanline does look to be returning from May TT change. 2 hourly as before. Appears to be departing Swansea around xx05. The 09xx appears to come from Pembroke Dock which I think it did before Covid. The others appear to be stand alone and no longer interact with the HOWL, probabaly as the timetable there has changed and doesnt fit in with Swanline.

 

[Caaardiff]

Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale/Maesteg will have a few (not all) 170s retained a little longer and remaining either be a mix of 175 or 150. 175s will still be around until near the end of this year so will likely plug the gaps in South Wales. There's no rush to get 197s in the south for May.

 

[anthony263]

Cheltenham/Ebbw Vale/Maesteg will have a few (not all) 170s retained a little longer and remaining either be a mix of 175 or 150. 175s will still be around until near the end of this year so will likely plug the gaps in South Wales. There's no rush to get 197s in the south for May.

I have heard it mentioned that Swanline would be one of the first routes in South Wales to be worked by 197s

 

[el_lnrd]

Sensible thing! Maesteg trains do not seem to be able to maintain timings on Cardiff-Bridgend with knock-on delays on express trains, a swanline worked by class 153 would be the same problem...

 

[anthony263]

Sensible thing! Maesteg trains do not seem to be able to maintain timings on Cardiff-Bridgend with knock-on delays on express trains, a swanline worked by class 153 would be the same problem...

Timings in December 2023 even tighter than they are now. Oy units i ever saw capable of maintaining timings were the class 143s plus some of the quicker class 150s and a three carriage 175

 

[Jacob Porrett]

70002 dragging 197104 to Crewe Basford Hall SSM today on 6Q98. (15/2/23)

 

[Krokodil]

Most of the 197s have been quite sluggish to accelerate, even in "super power mode". 197004 is quite quick though.

 

[Jez]

I have heard it mentioned that Swanline would be one of the first routes in South Wales to be worked by 197s

Thats good news as it should be better for the timings than 153s which have long dwell times due to the doors at the end of the carriage. Hopefully the Dec 23 TT will be changed and Swanline will get 197s and Maesteg to Ebbw Vale pairs of 153s!

 

[el_lnrd]

Most of the 197s have been quite sluggish to accelerate, even in "super power mode". 197004 is quite quick though.

I would be really disappointed given the much better power to weight ratio compared to sprinters and 175... Northern 195 were reported with 0.83 m/s^2 which is quite good and not far off an IET on electric power.

 

[Krokodil]

I would be really disappointed given the much better power to weight ratio compared to sprinters and 175... Northern 195 were reported with 0.83 m/s^2 which is quite good and not far off an IET on electric power.

The suspicion on the ground is that CAF have been tweaking the software to save costs. When they were being tested they would shoot off like a rocket, indeed 197004 still does.

 

[craigybagel]

Indeed, I've heard a few people comment that they're not as quick as they used to be. To be fair I guess they only need to match the performance of the units they're replacing to keep to time but a bit of extra pace is nice to have.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Indeed, I've heard a few people comment that they're not as quick as they used to be. To be fair I guess they only need to match the performance of the units they're replacing to keep to time but a bit of extra pace is nice to have.

It is most certainly disappointing if they are not as fast as was initially expected though. 002 definitely had some power when I was on it though.

 

[anthony263]

Thats good news as it should be better for the timings than 153s which have long dwell times due to the doors at the end of the carriage. Hopefully the Dec 23 TT will be changed and Swanline will get 197s and Maesteg to Ebbw Vale pairs of 153s!

The December 2023 timings for Maesteg to Ebbw Vale i doubt a 153 would keep to time on. Put a pair of 153s on Cardiff to Cheltenham

 

[Krokodil]

To be fair I guess they only need to match the performance of the units they're replacing to keep to time

No they don't, the WAG wants timings accelerated. If CAF don't sort this out the projected timetable will fall apart.

 

[Dai Corner]

No they don't, the WAG wants timings accelerated. If CAF don't sort this out the projected timetable will fall apart.

If they want better acceleration I guess TfW will have to accept higher fuel consumption?

 

[william.martin]

Most of the 197s have been quite sluggish to accelerate, even in "super power mode". 197004 is quite quick though.

Super power mode? When I hear this I imagine the driver pressing a big red button which injects nitrous oxide into the fuel.
What is this actually though, do the sister 196 units have the same fast and furious feature?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't they have 3 modes, performance, normal and economy? Northern's I believe do.

 

[Krokodil]

If they want better acceleration I guess TfW will have to accept higher fuel consumption?

More pertinently, CAF will have to accept parts wearing out quicker.

Don't they have 3 modes, performance, normal and economy? Northern's I believe do.

They do, but there seems to be huge variation with one unit's economy mode being better than another's performance mode.