Caernarfon to Bangor

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because the WHR doesn't cross over roads with new bridges?

I assumed that one would have been needed somewhere on the outskirts of Caernarfon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To quote the FR's spokesman on another forum "We have no plans to rebuild or operate it ourselves, but we would support 100% any bid to reinstate it"

Chris

My posting was in response to the final part of the posting by IKBrunel who had suggested the reasons why the WHR could rebuild "For a fraction of the cost of NR"

Your quote above puts matters in a totally different light when one considers the fact that it appears that standard gauge, not narrow-gauge, will be the required criteria, from what other posters have stated, so the fact that the WHR have only the wish to give the project their full support is somewhat different than what had been intimated in earlier postings.

 

[Chris125]

Your quote above puts matters in a totally different light when one considers the fact that it appears that standard gauge, not narrow-gauge, will be the required criteria, from what other posters have stated, so the fact that the WHR have only the wish to give the project their full support is somewhat different than what had been intimated in earlier postings.

Absolutely, it's something they want to see happen but that doesn't mean they are going to build or fund it themselves - what it seems they are trying to do is get a debate going, especially as it seems it could receive political support.

Chris

 

[merlodlliw]

In many ways its like The Llangollen railway wanting to go to Ruabon, but alas its never going to happen with all kinds of infrastructure in the way,

Keep NR out of costings like Chiltern did and half NR price price at a stroke.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

In many ways its like The Llangollen railway wanting to go to Ruabon, but alas its never going to happen with all kinds of infrastructure in the way,

Keep NR out of costings like Chiltern did and half NR price price at a stroke.

I'm certain that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I 'm pretty sure that there is less in the way of a C'fon - Bangor rebuild than Ruabon - Llangollen....and from what I have read, there has been little political support for the latter over the years.

 

[cymro inside]

starting at the Menai Bridge end of the line,once you have climbed the bank towards Treborth there is a small overbridge which needs to be replaced over the narrow road that leads to the tube,then a dive under for the Bangor bypass that leads to the brittannia bridge,vaynol tunnels may need money spent on them,then by the ty golchi bistro the overbridge across the A4087 needs replacing then we come to the tricky Felinheli bypass,yet another dive under and an overbridge at the cfon end of main street in Felinheli,then some level crossings at Griffiths crossing and at Waterloo Port.In 1990 Regional Railways costed the re-opening at nine million,I fear that we would now be looking at eleven times that figure.

 

[jones_bangor]

starting at the Menai Bridge end of the line,once you have climbed the bank towards Treborth there is a small overbridge which needs to be replaced over the narrow road that leads to the tube,then a dive under for the Bangor bypass that leads to the brittannia bridge,vaynol tunnels may need money spent on them,then by the ty golchi bistro the overbridge across the A4087 needs replacing then we come to the tricky Felinheli bypass,yet another dive under and an overbridge at the cfon end of main street in Felinheli,then some level crossings at Griffiths crossing and at Waterloo Port.In 1990 Regional Railways costed the re-opening at nine million,I fear that we would now be looking at eleven times that figure.

A lot of concrete bridges would be required....

Who knows what the future holds, maybe a deal-maker for a Labour-Plaid coalition in 2016, after a Labour Westminster victory in 2015?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

starting at the Menai Bridge end of the line,once you have climbed the bank towards Treborth there is a small overbridge which needs to be replaced over the narrow road that leads to the tube,then a dive under for the Bangor bypass that leads to the brittannia bridge,vaynol tunnels may need money spent on them,then by the ty golchi bistro the overbridge across the A4087 needs replacing then we come to the tricky Felinheli bypass,yet another dive under and an overbridge at the cfon end of main street in Felinheli,then some level crossings at Griffiths crossing and at Waterloo Port.In 1990 Regional Railways costed the re-opening at nine million,I fear that we would now be looking at eleven times that figure.

Oh - yes, that is quite a lot of work, and probably wouldn't be seen at all as money well spent. Just have to cancel Trident after all, then!

 

[pablo]

........Just have to cancel Trident after all, then!

Ah, so Bangor - Caernarfon will be our first line of defence then? :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah, so Bangor - Caernarfon will be our first line of defence then? :roll:

Against the new druidical-led invasion from Ynys Mon...

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Ah, so Bangor - Caernarfon will be our first line of defence then? :roll:

Well, probably be as successful as the Maginot line, that didn't really go anywhere, either!

 

[IKBrunel]

Whether or not WHR/FR want to build/manage the work, if this is to be anything more than a fantasy line it needs an organisation with some suitable resources needs to at least be the 'promoter', the first task of the promoter would be to find some money to do a feasibility study, to put some figures the capex, revenue & bcr. In Mid Wales this task would fall to www.tracc.gov.uk (for better or worse) is there a North Wales equivalent?

 

[6Gman]

What would the timetable look like?

[Reopening/rebuilding proposals are fine, but without a timetable it's hard top assess the purpose]

 

[Gareth Marston]

Whether or not WHR/FR want to build/manage the work, if this is to be anything more than a fantasy line it needs an organisation with some suitable resources needs to at least be the 'promoter', the first task of the promoter would be to find some money to do a feasibility study, to put some figures the capex, revenue & bcr. In Mid Wales this task would fall to www.tracc.gov.uk (for better or worse) is there a North Wales equivalent?

It's called TAITH but if rumours are to be believed WG want to abolish the regional transport consortia.

 

[martinsh]

takes well over 30 minutes to get to Caernarvon and deposits you a good 10 minute walk from WHR.

You must walk VERY slowly - 5 mins tops. Quicker if you know the shortcut.

[Though I admit a bit longer if your bus dumps you at the top of the bus station, but it sounds like you went on Arriva who use the stop nearest the WHR anyway. Other operators are quicker between Bangor and Caernarfon, and some take the Felinheli bypass ]

 

[pablo]

WHR/FR is well capabale of doing it. Like I sed earlier; they've just got their hands a bit full at the moment finishing Phase 4 and promoting (twisting arms) for Phase 5.
Phase 6 will come a little later................ about ten years at a guess.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whether or not WHR/FR want to build/manage the work, if this is to be anything more than a fantasy line it needs an organisation with some suitable resources needs to at least be the 'promoter'.

The first task of the 'promoter' would be to find some money to do a feasibility study

The mention of a feasibility study is most sensible suggestion and the results of this can be the benchmark for further discussions on the matter.

With another hoped-for North Wales project, was there not such a feasibility study carried out on the proposed link to Llangefni from the main line across Ynys Mon ?

 

[merlodlliw]

The mention of a feasibility study is most sensible suggestion and the results of this can be the benchmark for further discussions on the matter.

With another hoped-for North Wales project, was there not such a feasibility study carried out on the proposed link to Llangefni from the main line across Ynys Mon ?

If I recall the then Rail Minister IWJ also AM for Anglesey,funded such a project,however with the current Minister based in the Gower,I dont hold much hope for any more FS in the North form a few years.

 

[pablo]

Feasibility Studies are a delaying tactic by politicos who haven't got the guts to make a decision on the evidence presented to them.

 

[Rhydgaled]

"Arriva Trains Wales proposed restoring the line and others as part of their bid for the all-Wales franchise awarded to them in 2003".

That's interesting. Why did they have to turn the franchise to no-growth? Were any other lines planned for reopenning?

If you wanted to really make the national network connection useful, you'd extend on the formation (yes, I know you'd have to move the cycle path) back to Pwllheli via the Carnarvonshire Railway, with a Pwllheli facing junction.

Is there not enough room to have a narrower path running alongside a single track railway? I do think that it could be better to leave the original formation at Bryncir to cut the corner off and head straight for Porthmadog rather than going via Afon Wen though.

Oh yes the original Wales and Borders bids were in a different league, I was working for Rail Passengers Council Wales at the time and went to presentations. Then the SRA in their infinite wisdom cooked up no growth. Needless to say stuff like Cambrian hourly were all in there.

What would our rail network be like now if the orriginal Wales & Borders bids had gone ahead then? How many reopennings?

Of course talking of bus services thoughts of Carmarthen- Aberystwyth reopening is starting to rear its head again. I believe there is a public meeting due to be held in Lampeter. But is either reopning ever likely to be a reality without a massive shift in government policy and attitudes? Could the WAG's future ability to raise money change this??

Public meeting has already happened I think. There's an hourly bus service between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, plus early morning coaches 701 and 20 from Aberystwyth to Cardiff, yet talk of a rail link refuses to go away.

Carmarthen to Aberystwyth seems more sensible (and likely!) than Bangor - Carnarvon, I would've thought.

I disagree. Carmarthen - Aberystwyth would have it's merits, but would be a rather stand alone scheme and the intermediate places aren't that big. Bangor - Caernarfon though, connects a large town to the network for much less track. Extending it through to Porthmadog though would really be transformational, assuming the Cambrian coast line has enough loops (or you build some more) you could run through trains from Newtown to Bangor (maybe eventually even Brecon to Bangor). That would boost frequency at the major stations between Machynlleth and Porthmadog (I wouldn't have the new service serve all the little request stops) to hourly as a bonus.

What would the timetable look like?

[Reopening/rebuilding proposals are fine, but without a timetable it's hard top assess the purpose]

Personally, I'd propose an hourly service from Caernarfon to either Amlwch or Llandudno. In addition to this would be a train every two hours from Newtown/Brecon to Bangor. Perhaps you could split a portion off Crewe/Manchester-Holyhead trains too (these would replace the current Cardiff/Birmingham-Wrexham-Holyhead trains). In short, 1.5tph or 2.5tph.

I would imagine that there are quite alot of car journeys (tourism) to Llanberis. If you could build a branch to Llanberis, you could extend either the trains from Llandudno/Amlwch or the ones from Crewe/Manchester from Caernarfon out to Llanberis.

 

[Mvann]

I don't think llanberris is feasible as a standard gauge line, as a good stretch of the old formation is now road. 2ft gauge can be done as, apart from tunneling under St. Helens roundabout, the standard gauge line was clear to llanrug and then go onto the old 4ft line to llanberris. Please note I moved away from there in 2001, so there maybe other things have happened since.

 

[jones_bangor]

Caernarfon rather withered on the vine once the through lines to Llanberis and Pwllheli (Afonwen) disappeared before and after Beeching. The closure in the early 70s was rather inevitable....

Reopening to Caernarfon and extending through to Afonwen, and then opening Aberystwyth - Carmarthen could be fantastic, but where the many tens or hundreds of millions would come from is another matter!!

 

[Tobbes]

Reopening to Caernarfon and extending through to Afonwen, and then opening Aberystwyth - Carmarthen could be fantastic, but where the many tens or hundreds of millions would come from is another matter!!

Given that the route is essentially open from Caernarfon to Afon Wen (ie, if you were going to do it, you'd find the money to move the WHR into the new station, and to build alongside the WHR to Dinas, installing a new platform in Dinas), the capital costs shouldn't be outrageous. Not cheap, though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

and to build alongside the WHR to Dinas

How frequent is the WHR likely to be on the section which would be shared by a Caernarfon - Porthmadog route, and what is the journey time? Could the narrow guage rails actually be attached to the same sleepers as the standard guage ones (running the narrow guage tracks within the standard guage)? Of course if there's room to run them side by side that would probably be more sensible.

 

[Chris125]

WHR/FR is well capabale of doing it. Like I sed earlier; they've just got their hands a bit full at the moment finishing Phase 4 and promoting (twisting arms) for Phase 5.
Phase 6 will come a little later................ about ten years at a guess.

I see no reason to think that at all, Andrew Thomas has said himself that the F&WHR have no plans to rebuild or operate it themselves nor would it make much sense anyway if reopened as a standard gauge extension of the national network - it is simply something they, like a lot of people, want to see happen.

Chris

 

[Gareth Marston]

Caernarfon rather withered on the vine once the through lines to Llanberis and Pwllheli (Afonwen) disappeared before and after Beeching. The closure in the early 70s was rather inevitable....

Reopening to Caernarfon and extending through to Afonwen, and then opening Aberystwyth - Carmarthen could be fantastic, but where the many tens or hundreds of millions would come from is another matter!!

We all know that- cancel the A465 dualling!

 

[anthony263]

We all know that- cancel the A465 dualling!

Certainly I will clap if that decision actually happens.

The A465 seems perfectly fine to drive on as it is the only time I have see it really congested is when there has been serious trouble on the M4 at the Brynglas tunnels

 

[SWTH]

Let not forget that WHR/FR would be able to build a line for a fraction of the NR cost due to looser standards for heritage railways, lower overheads and volunteer labour.

Out of curiosity what looser standards are these?

 

[Holly]

Whilst an NR extension would be hugely preferable for interconnectivity. I suspect there are numerous line NR re-opening possibilities with higher BCR due to large centres of population. WHR have a lot more to gain from this project than NR/ATW do, since it would open up the access to the Northern end of their route.
Let not forget that WHR/FR would be able to build a line for a fraction of the NR cost due to looser standards for heritage railways, lower overheads and volunteer labour.

How about a single track standard gauge heritage railway terminating at a totally new station at Menai Bridge with cross-platform interchange to the network?
Won't there be ever more standard gauge heritage rolling stock looking for a home as the years pass? Someone will want to preserve a Pacer :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally, I'd propose an hourly service from Caernarfon to either Amlwch or Llandudno.

If you really wanted to examine the realms of railway history with finance carefully forgotten as a cost and provide a tourist-based railway, one could well imagine a "cross Menai Strait" railway service running from Caernarfon to Red Wharf Way on Ynys Mon.

The now long-closed railway line to Red Wharf Bay branched off the Anglesey Central Railway at Holland Arms. In my days at Manchester University in the 1960's, a group of us traced this route as best we could. We could never understand why there was never a terminal railway station constructed at Benllech, instead of that one which was constructed at Red Wharf Bay which closed in 1930.

 

[pablo]

Yes Paul, I've pondered that one too. I do remember reading something of a history which suggested that the Directors realised they were wasting their time and money before the line got to Benllech. So it just pettered out at the side of the road. Seem to recall my grandmother saying she got a trap to the station though! So maybe it actually saw trains.

BTW: anyone tell how you could get from Caernarfon to Amlwch by rail? And why anyone would want to?