Caernarfon to Bangor

[8H]

Proposals for reinstating routes are always interesting

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/caernarfon-bangor-rail-link-talk-6214421

The reopening of a 7-mile stretch of disused railway line linking Caernarfon to the rest of the network is back on the cards.

Railway enthusiasts believe it “makes no sense” for seven-mile gap in a 90-mile circular route around and through Snowdonia and want the line from Caernarfon to Bangor re-opened.

Draft plans have been drawn up and discussed by volunteers at the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railway (F&WHR) who are keen to start on another project.

The railway closed in 1970 and track and some bridges removed but the trackbed still exists.

To allow its reopening a bridge would have to be rebuilt at Felinheli, a filled in embankment at Balaclava Square, Caernarfon dug out and a tunnel at Faenol cleared. The section from Felinheli to Caernarfon has been converted into a cycleway.


Volunteers managed to reopen the 26-mile long Welsh Highland Railway from Dinas to Porthmadog in stages at a cost of about £28m.



F&WHR spokesman Andrew Thomas said: “My favoured plan would be standard gauge from Menai Bridge (where it branches off the main North Wales line) to Caernarfon where the car park near Morrisons could be a station.

What do you lot think of this one ??

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I note two phrases used at the start of the article.....

"Railway enthusiasts believe...."

"Discussions by volunteers..."

 

[pablo]

"Construction is planned to start on April 1st 2010."
Some peeps treat this as a joke.
http://www.isengard.co.uk/Phase 6.htm

 

[merlodlliw]

I note two phrases used at the start of the article.....

"Railway enthusiasts believe...."

"Discussions by volunteers..."

The magic words from Network Rail "Funding" and this comment “Reopening the line to Bangor would square the circle. I am very much in favour of this project and reopening the line from Gaerwen to Llangefni as well which would help revive the whole region.” again funding.

The AM will currently be more concerned about funding long term the X94 bus, which his constituents are afraid of losing.Again the magic word funding

 

[8H]

All fair points everybody but the "enthusiasts" in this case appear to be the WHR and the FR, not just you and me looking at our Ian Allan locospotters books occasionally.

And, they both do have long term experience of project management of big civil engineering and planning problems associated with rail reinstatement and in finding funding partners for such schemes.

That's why I wondered if this scheme long term could have stronger foundations than simply dreaming out loud?

 

[cle]

Fingers crossed - not only as a town of 10,000/outbound connections but also as a tourist spot and focal entertainment/nightlife spot for the region, it could definitely help the local area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry to be a bit of a wet blanket, but are there not good bus services between Bangor and Caernarfon for both the local residents and the tourist trade to use ?

What frequency of train service is envisaged and what periods of the day will these be running ?

 

[swcovas]

I think there are many who would like to see this as a reality.....as long as it's part of the National Rail network and not and extension of the WHR. I note from the Daily Post article:

"Arriva Trains Wales proposed restoring the line and others as part of their bid for the all-Wales franchise awarded to them in 2003".

Must admit I don't remember this and certainly haven't heard any noises from them since. Ditto the Llangefni reopening which was supposedly being considered a few years ago.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think there are many who would like to see this as a reality.....as long as it's part of the National Rail network and not and extension of the WHR. I note from the Daily Post article:

"Arriva Trains Wales proposed restoring the line and others as part of their bid for the all-Wales franchise awarded to them in 2003".

Must admit I don't remember this and certainly haven't heard any noises from them since. Ditto the Llangefni reopening which was supposedly being considered a few years ago.

I can not recall Arriva stating this in there "No Growth 15 year contract" other bidders who lost did indeed offer extra stock & services.
Arrivas 15 year Wales & Borders contract deal simply required them to upgrade station car parks at a maximum cost of £400K.

Sorry to be a bit of a wet blanket, but are there not good bus services between Bangor and Caernarfon for both the local residents and the tourist trade to use ?

What frequency of train service is envisaged and what periods of the day will these be running ?

http://www.arrivabus.co.uk/wales/bus-timetables/5-5C-5S-X5/llandudno-buses-caernarfon-buses/

it appears three to four an hour

 

[pablo]

The WHR and the FR has its work cut out funding and executing Phase 5 at present.
It'll be years before they turn seriously upon C to B, but they do have their eyes on the bay platform at Bangor and space for an engineering depot like Boston Lodge.
It will take some serious engineering where new roads have cut across the old trackbed and probably, some re-alignment. Not a light-hearted project.
WHR & FR's ideas are not standard gauge and it would depend upon NR giving up a track and single tracking from Bangor to the divergence. Can you see that? Well WHR & FR could go standard gauge!!
And so, if NR won't play ball, you're back into the realms of politics and you can see how far the Llangefni-Gaerwen re-opening has got in fourteen years of my knowledge.

 

[Tobbes]

I think there are many who would like to see this as a reality.....as long as it's part of the National Rail network and not and extension of the WHR.

I agree - I love the WHR dearly, but it isn't a local transport option in the conventional sense. What chance of a 2230 WHR departure to connect with the 1910 ex-Euston on a Thursday night in November?

It would be much more sensible to relay the standard gauge to Caernarfon and either interchange with WHR, probably in the Morrison's carpark, allowing the WHR to do so (more) street running to the current station. If you wanted to really make the national network connection useful, you'd extend on the formation (yes, I know you'd have to move the cycle path) back to Pwllheli via the Carnarvonshire Railway, with a Pwllheli facing junction. If Caernarvon Station were to be built on the original site, then you'd have to convert the road tunnel back to rail, but there's no reason that the WHR couldn't run on separate tracks - IIRC, this section was two tracks wide, one for Llanberis and one for Pwllheli.

WHR could - and should - continue to do what it does so well - fill trains with tourists looking at the magnificence of Eyri.

Tobbes

 

[anthony263]

I can not recall Arriva stating this in there "No Growth 15 year contract" other bidders who lost did indeed offer extra stock & services.
Arrivas 15 year Wales & Borders contract deal simply required them to upgrade station car parks at a maximum cost of £400K.

I think Arriva did propose it before the franchise was changed to the no growth franchise as it is now

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It appears three to four an hour

So the question to ask is will this existing bus service provision, with all its intermediate bus stop provision, be one that the existing local and tourist users forsake for a rail service ?

Is it proposed that the rail ticket prices will be set to be competitive to the bus prices ? I note the WHR ticket price for a single journey from Caernarfon to Waunfair is £7.40 "third-class" single.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think Arriva did propose it before the franchise was changed to the no growth franchise as it is now

Oh yes the original Wales and Borders bids were in a different league, I was working for Rail Passengers Council Wales at the time and went to presentations. Then the SRA in their infinite wisdom cooked up no growth. Needless to say stuff like Cambrian hourly were all in there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So the question to ask is will this existing bus service provision, with all its intermediate bus stop provision, be one that the existing local and tourist users forsake for a rail service ?

Is it proposed that the rail ticket prices will be set to be competitive to the bus prices ? I note the WHR ticket price for a single journey from Caernarfon to Waunfair is £7.40 "third-class" single.

The buses go from near the station so thats good, but they do what buses do Bangor Uni, Coleg Menai, rough council estate pelted by school kids with tennis balls last time I did it, up to the front door of the A&E dept at Bangor Hospital, goes through Felinheli village slowly, takes well over 30 minutes to get to Caernarvon and deposits you a good 10 minute walk from WHR. There not a tourist service really.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The buses go from near the station so thats good, but they do what buses do Bangor Uni, Coleg Menai, rough council estate pelted by school kids with tennis balls last time I did it, up to the front door of the A&E dept at Bangor Hospital, goes through Felinheli village slowly, takes well over 30 minutes to get to Caernarfon and deposits you a good 10 minute walk from WHR. There not a tourist service really.

Is it the intention for the WHR to provide multi-stop facilities between Caernarfon and Bangor or is it just to be viewed as something akin to limited-stop bus services from one town centre to another at a premium rate price for those prepared to pay these high prices ? I have already cited a current WHR 3rd class single price of £7.40 from Caernarfon to Waunfair.

Why quote the 10 minute walk to the bleak situation of the WHR? That is not what I remember as being the centre of Caernarfon, whereas the bus station serves the middle of the shopping area that the local population seem to find quite an acceptable place to board or disembark, with easy connections to other bus services. Tourists disembarking at Caernarfon bus station find shops, cafés, restaurants and Caernarfon Castle close by.

 

[ivanhoe]

Is it the intention for the WHR to provide multi-stop facilities between Caernarfon and Bangor or is it just to be viewed as something akin to limited-stop bus services from one town centre to another at a premium rate price for those prepared to pay these high prices ? I have already cited a current WHR 3rd class single price of £7.40 from Caernarfon to Waunfair.

Why quote the 10 minute walk to the bleak situation of the WHR? That is not what I remember as being the centre of Caernarfon, whereas the bus station serves the middle of the shopping area that the local population seem to find quite an acceptable place to board or disembark, with easy connections to other bus services. Tourists disembarking at Caernarfon bus station find shops, cafés, restaurants and Caernarfon Castle close by.

The Bus Service is very good .Admittingly I use it as a tourist but it stops at places I want to go to from Llandudno such as Conway and Caernarfon.Can't really see where any funding would come from.

 

[swcovas]

Oh yes the original Wales and Borders bids were in a different league, I was working for Rail Passengers Council Wales at the time and went to presentations. Then the SRA in their infinite wisdom cooked up no growth. Needless to say stuff like Cambrian hourly were all in there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, now some have mentioned it I do seem to remember that there were various ideas before the no growth "proposals".

In reality I can't see in the current climate that Bangor - Caernarfon is going to get anywhere near the drawing board for many years espcially bearing in mind the adequate bus service even with tennis balls!

Of course talking of bus services thoughts of Carmarthen- Aberystwyth reopening is starting to rear its head again. I believe there is a public meeting due to be held in Lampeter. But is either reopning ever likely to be a reality without a massive shift in government policy and attitudes? Could the WAG's future ability to raise money change this??

 

[merlodlliw]

I think Arriva did propose it before the franchise was changed to the no growth franchise as it is now

The Bus Service is very good .Admittingly I use it as a tourist but it stops at places I want to go to from Llandudno such as Conway and Caernarfon.Can't really see where any funding would come from.

The Minister is working on the system, if its a good bus service,that's it.

 

[Tobbes]

Of course talking of bus services thoughts of Carmarthen- Aberystwyth reopening is starting to rear its head again. I believe there is a public meeting due to be held in Lampeter. But is either reopning ever likely to be a reality without a massive shift in government policy and attitudes? Could the WAG's future ability to raise money change this??

Carmarthen to Aberystwyth seems more sensible (and likely!) than Bangor - Carnarvon, I would've thought.

 

[Deerfold]

http://www.arrivabus.co.uk/wales/bus-timetables/5-5C-5S-X5/llandudno-buses-caernarfon-buses/

it appears three to four an hour

And up to 4 an hour from a variety of other operators:

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_amserlen_bws.asp?rhif_gwasanaeth=01N_1C_

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_amserlen_bws.asp?rhif_gwasanaeth=01_1A

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_amserlen_bws.asp?rhif_gwasanaeth=10_10C

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/gwy_amserlen_bws.asp?rhif_gwasanaeth=T2

Guess where I went on holiday this year...

Annoying there are few reasonable priced tickets that allow travel by all operators unless you have a free pass - we had a weekly Arriva ticket each (for £12 - I'm afraid we did slow one bus down somewhat but were quickly on and off after that).

 

[krus_aragon]

The WHR and the FR has its work cut out funding and executing Phase 5 at present.
It'll be years before they turn seriously upon C to B, but they do have their eyes on the bay platform at Bangor and space for an engineering depot like Boston Lodge.
It will take some serious engineering where new roads have cut across the old trackbed and probably, some re-alignment. Not a light-hearted project.
WHR & FR's ideas are not standard gauge and it would depend upon NR giving up a track and single tracking from Bangor to the divergence. Can you see that? Well WHR & FR could go standard gauge!!
And so, if NR won't play ball, you're back into the realms of politics and you can see how far the Llangefni-Gaerwen re-opening has got in fourteen years of my knowledge.

Is it the intention for the WHR to provide multi-stop facilities between Caernarfon and Bangor or is it just to be viewed as something akin to limited-stop bus services from one town centre to another at a premium rate price for those prepared to pay these high prices ? I have already cited a current WHR 3rd class single price of £7.40 from Caernarfon to Waunfair.

I heard of this on the radio this morning. I find this part of the linked article most reassuring:

F&WHR spokesman Andrew Thomas said: “My favoured plan would be standard gauge from Menai Bridge (where it branches off the main North Wales line) to Caernarfon where the car park near Morrisons could be a station.

They apparently don't intend to get narrow gauge to Bangor. Makes sense, as it means they don't have to find a way to lay track through Caernarfon again, and the addition of the new car park at Bangor means that there isn't as much space there for a WHR terminus as there was back it 2005 (when that 'phase 6' page surfaced). A mainline link is arguable better for the people of Caernarfon, and also less for the WHR to have to administrate.

Sorry to be a bit of a wet blanket, but are there not good bus services between Bangor and Caernarfon for both the local residents and the tourist trade to use ?

The frequency isn't the issue, so much as the road. The approach into Caernarfon is a narrow single carriageway with legendary tailbacks at rush hour. Admittedly, this may be relieved by the planned road bypass.

 

[Mvann]

As far as I remember, standard gauge has always been the preferred option as the council was looking at the day trip and rail tour market to bring in tourists from further afield. If the WHR and FR want a new project, why not go back to the plan to open the llanberris branch, as suggested by the slate museum when there was an outside chance of the maritime museum going there instead of Cardiff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The frequency isn't the issue, so much as the road. The approach into Caernarfon is a narrow single carriageway with legendary tailbacks at rush hour. Admittedly, this may be relieved by the planned road bypass.

I did allow for the planned road bypass in my thoughts when I was considering the future transportation services in the area and the proposed rail reinstatement. How important is the planned bypass on the agenda of those charged with the future transportation needs of the coastal region of North Wales that covers this particular area ? I am sure that there are forum members local to this area who will have their finger on the pulse of such matters.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Well, this idea is all a very pleasant , and would be a considerable achievement were it to happen, as unlikely as it might seem....but consider, if there had been a RailUK Forum in the 1960's and the FR proposal of building a completely new line including a tunnel to reach Bl. Ffestiniog was being discussed by our predecessors, I wonder what the view might have been on this forum ...or indeed similar in the 1980's/90's when the WHR restoration was being discussed. Frankly, it is probably wise not to underestimate the FR!!!
Just another point, I wonder whether the fact that Bangor station is a good 10 mins walk from the centre would put potential travellers off, it is rare that I walk it but I did so yesterday and it was not very pleasant on a blustery day. Shuttle bus, I presume.

 

[jones_bangor]

I did allow for the planned road bypass in my thoughts when I was considering the future transportation services in the area and the proposed rail reinstatement. How important is the planned bypass on the agenda of those charged with the future transportation needs of the coastal region of North Wales that covers this particular area ? I am sure that there are forum members local to this area who will have their finger on the pulse of such matters.

The bypass will be a welcome relief to anyone west of Caernarfon. The rush to get east in the morning is a real pain. I would imagine the new road will further weaken the case for Caernarfon reopening as it makes Bangor even more accessible. Reopening the railway westwards was considered as an alternative to the Caernarfon bypass as part of feasibility stage. This was dismissed as not a viable option.

 

[Bevan Price]

Carmarthen to Aberystwyth seems more sensible (and likely!) than Bangor - Carnarvon, I would've thought.

Carmarthen to Aberystwyth is over 50 miles serving a few small towns & villages, plus lots of sparsely populated countryside. Chances of reopening ? - Close to zero.

Bangor (Menai Bridge) to Caernarfon is just over 5 miles, with little obstruction of trackbed until the supermarket at Caernarfon. Chances of reopening ? Probable eventually, but not in the next 10 - 20 years.

 

[IKBrunel]

Whilst an NR extension would be hugely preferable for interconnectivity. I suspect there are numerous line NR re-opening possibilities with higher BCR due to large centres of population. WHR have a lot more to gain from this project than NR/ATW do, since it would open up the access to the Northern end of their route.
Let not forget that WHR/FR would be able to build a line for a fraction of the NR cost due to looser standards for heritage railways, lower overheads and volunteer labour.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let not forget that WHR/FR would be able to build a line for a fraction of the NR cost due to looser standards for heritage railways, lower overheads and volunteer labour.

I have a feeling that "lesser standards", as you so succinctly phrase it, will not pass muster should there be any major new bridgeworks built to carry standard-gauge rail track in town areas that span road traffic routes that have any part in this proposed project.

 

[the sniper]

I have a feeling that "lesser standards", as you so succinctly phrase it, will not pass muster should there be any major new bridgeworks built to carry standard-gauge rail track in town areas that span road traffic routes that have any part in this proposed project.

Because the WHR doesn't cross over roads with new bridges?

 

[Chris125]

To quote the FR's spokesman on another forum "We have no plans to rebuild or operate it ourselves, but we would support 100% any bid to reinstate it"

Chris