c2c more stock

[bengley]

There are some key differences though, e.g. 357s don't have end gangways, 387s do, and the 357s use Tightlock couplers, whereas the 387s have Dellner couplers, so they would be unable to couple.

387s are also fitted with in-cab DOO monitors whereas 357s are not

 

[absolutelymilk]

There are some key differences though, e.g. 357s don't have end gangways, 387s do, and the 357s use Tightlock couplers, whereas the 387s have Dellner couplers, so they would be unable to couple.

Presumably they would run as two twelve car 387 trains to replace four or eight car 357 services, meaning those would be freed up to run coupled to other 357s?

 

[rebmcr]

7 months from new build to being introduced on a line where 387s aren't already in service? I know 357s and 387s aren't worlds apart but given what I understand fairly substantial technological differences between the units, and 387s not having been used on that route before, plus the fact they aren't already in service elsewhere, does that not seem like a bit of a tight deadline? Or have I misunderstood the article?

c2c are desperate for extra capacity, so this would seem to be the fastest possible deployment, on purpose.

 

[chris11256]

Presumably they would run as two twelve car 387 trains to replace four or eight car 357 services, meaning those would be freed up to run coupled to other 357s?

Thats the idea I gather. The 387's can replace two of the 12 carriage 357 services. That then frees up 6 357 units to be used elsewhere. So potentially 6 trains going from 8 carriages to 12, or 4 to 8.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There are some key differences though, e.g. 357s don't have end gangways, 387s do, and the 357s use Tightlock couplers, whereas the 387s have Dellner couplers, so they would be unable to couple.

I am sure the 387s will quite easily interwork with 357s. Already the 377/6s and 377/7s interwork with earlier 377s. If I remember correctly the 377/6s and 377/7s are really just the first examples of 387s given the wrong class number, they are certainly not real 377s. The 357 could be argued to be an AC only version of a 377 so is hopefully not going to provide as many challenges. The 387s can work alone (as two 12-car diagrams) until they (or the 357s) are ready to work together in multiple. Whatever the challenge it is going to be a damn sight easier than the earlier idea of using 360s from a different manufacturer.

The in-cab doo screens can just be ignored ?. The inter-unit gangway connection can just be ignored/blanked off as the 357s do not have them. The couplers are not a big deal surely ? (tries to forget the conversion of 170s to 171s !).

 

[Domh245]

I am sure the 387s will quite easily interwork with 357s. Already the 377/6s and 377/7s interwork with earlier 377s. If I remember correctly the 377/6s and 377/7s are really just the first examples of 387s given the wrong class number, they are certainly not real 377s. The 357 could be argued to be an AC only version of a 377 so is hopefully not going to provide as many challenges. The 387s can work alone (as two 12-car diagrams) until they (or the 357s) are ready to work together in multiple. Whatever the challenge it is going to be a damn sight easier than the earlier idea of using 360s from a different manufacturer.

The in-cab doo screens can just be ignored ?. The inter-unit gangway connection can just be ignored/blanked off as the 357s do not have them. The couplers are not a big deal surely ? (tries to forget the conversion of 170s to 171s !).

For a 3 year lease, they sure as hell won't be changing anything - it'd be the equivalent of leasing a car for a week. They'll act as their own microfleet, but vaguely similar to the 357s. The in cab DOO screens will almost certainly be ignored (especially if they are operating as 12 cars, which on c2c are guarded), the inter-unit gangway will exist as normal, couplers will definitely not be changed under any circumstances - it'd be far too much hassle.

 

[WatcherZero]

DfT apparently hopping mad with c2c for announcing the deal as completed when it hasn't actually been physically signed and Dft hasn't even in principal approved the expenditure for it.

 

[Class377/5]

I am sure the 387s will quite easily interwork with 357s. Already the 377/6s and 377/7s interwork with earlier 377s. If I remember correctly the 377/6s and 377/7s are really just the first examples of 387s given the wrong class number, they are certainly not real 377s. The 357 could be argued to be an AC only version of a 377 so is hopefully not going to provide as many challenges. The 387s can work alone (as two 12-car diagrams) until they (or the 357s) are ready to work together in multiple. Whatever the challenge it is going to be a damn sight easier than the earlier idea of using 360s from a different manufacturer.

The in-cab doo screens can just be ignored ?. The inter-unit gangway connection can just be ignored/blanked off as the 357s do not have them. The couplers are not a big deal surely ? (tries to forget the conversion of 170s to 171s !).

377/6 and 377/7 are backwards compatible with eariler 37x model (hence the 377 prefix) however no 387 is compatible with the eariler Electrostar's so you can't run 357 and 387 together in passenger service as it's a hardware issue.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will the 387s mean drivers and guards having to do a full traction course or just a course covering stuff that is different from the existing units?

 

[chris11256]

c2c plan to introduce DOO to their 12 carriage services soon. They're installing the monitors now. So not sure if guards will be an issue come October. Of course that's ignoring any union issues relating to 12 carriage DOO.

c2c were on BBC Essex last night, I remember them saying paper work was signed the other day.

 

[jon0844]

377/6 and 377/7 are backwards compatible with eariler 37x model (hence the 377 prefix) however no 387 is compatible with the eariler Electrostar's so you can't run 357 and 387 together in passenger service as it's a hardware issue.

Hardware issues can always be solved with a hammer...

 

[The Ham]

Hardware issues can always be solved with a hammer...

Sometimes a BIG hammer, in fact there is a school of thought within certain engineering sectors which says, "hit it with a big hammer first as if that doesn't work nothing will".

 

[swt_passenger]

DfT apparently hopping mad with c2c for announcing the deal as completed when it hasn't actually been physically signed and Dft hasn't even in principal approved the expenditure for it.

Lack of communication within DfT apparently; according to Tony Miles in wnxx.

Panic over then...

 

[387star]

c2c plan to introduce DOO to their 12 carriage services soon. They're installing the monitors now. So not sure if guards will be an issue come October. Of course that's ignoring any union issues relating to 12 carriage DOO.

c2c were on BBC Essex last night, I remember them saying paper work was signed the other day.

Other than London Overground I think.C2C has been the only toc to implement new doo successfully since privatisation

What do these guards do when not working 12 cars..
Are they part time or rpos the rest of the time?

 

[Class377/5]

Hardware issues can always be solved with a hammer...

To make a 357 and a 387 work together you need more than a hammer. One must be rewired. The 357/37x parts are now out of date and hard to find.

 

[jon0844]

To make a 357 and a 387 work together you need more than a hammer. One must be rewired. The 357/37x parts are now out of date and hard to find.

Okay, so some wires and duck tape also then...

 

[Class377/5]

Okay, so some wires and duck tape also then...

Duct tape is always useful

 

[chris11256]

Other than London Overground I think.C2C has been the only toc to implement new doo successfully since privatisation

What do these guards do when not working 12 cars..
Are they part time or rpos the rest of the time?

I'm not 100% sure, c2c only run a handful of 12 carriage services in each peak.

Often i've had the same guard on both my morning & evening journey.

 

[bengley]

I believe the guards work long day shifts and work the AM & PM peak and sit spare for the middle part of the day

 

[387star]

Thanks interesting
Will full doo on c2c be pushed in easily?