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Budget: Another £30bn for roads

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ac6000cw

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But where an attractive service is provided, it is often well used. For example, Metrolink and busways such as Cambridge to St Ives. In that respect, Britain is little different to elsewhere.

Exactly - and people putting dirty feet on seats, eating smelly hot food in the carriage, and talking loudly to their friends in language peppered with swear words turns people off public transport (and they'll choose to drive rather than share their personal space with other people).
 
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AM9

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Exactly - and people putting dirty feet on seats, eating smelly hot food in the carriage, and talking loudly to their friends in language peppered with swear words turns people off public transport (and they'll choose to drive rather than share their personal space with other people).
If behaviour like that is a primary reason (or excuse) for much private car use, then the combined effect of enforcement and the resulting change in the majority of ordinary users will reduce it to a level that it ceases to be a deterrent to those wedded to their cars.
 

radamfi

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Even in Britain you can alter your behaviour and lifestyle so that you don't need a car. For example, you can move house to near a rail station with a good service, get around that town using a bike or electric bike, and maybe use the odd taxi. Even more optimally you don't have kids and don't work in industries where employment tends to be on business parks. I see more and more young people choosing such behaviour that lends itself to a car free existence, and many of them aren't too bothered about learning to drive.
 

DarloRich

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Even in Britain you can alter your behaviour and lifestyle that you don't need a car. For example, you can move house to near a rail station with a good service, get around that town using a bike or electric bike, and maybe use the odd taxi. Even more optimally you don't have kids and don't work in industries where employment tends to be on business parks. I see more and more young people choosing such behaviour that lends itself to a car free existence, and many of them aren't too bothered about learning to drive.

here we go again - the bizarre stop having kids argument. madness.

BTW - you don't see more and more people making these choices.
 

radamfi

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here we go again - the bizarre stop having kids argument. madness.

BTW - you don't see more and more people making these choices.

The "no kids" thing isn't mandatory when it comes to car dependence. Some families don't have cars. But it can't do any harm.

People who work in white collar, professional industries will undoubtedly have noticed such a trend. Very few of my colleagues under 35 have a car or kids, whereas that wouldn't have been the case 20 years ago.
 

AM9

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Indeed, I don't care how much public transport is "improved", you will not get me to give up the convenience and comfort of my car for the vast majority of journeys, and if I still had a family in tow that would go double.
Defiant attitudes like this require action from governments to make (unnecessary) car use less attractive. One likely measure will be the introduction of universal road charging. No longer will the current assumption that the car is the default mode for getting about when there is a marginal cost of actually using the road. It will probably be the mandatory fitting of telematics to private cars that will be used to aggregate the total road charge.
Of course there will be the equivalent of smokers who are prepared to pay the cost of their habit, (and a few like drink-drivers who go out of their way to break the law and evade the system), but with ANPR becoming very commonplace, they will be brought into line.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Indeed, I don't care how much public transport is "improved", you will not get me to give up the convenience and comfort of my car for the vast majority of journeys, and if I still had a family in tow that would go double.

Gosh, you're making yourself sound like such a pleasant, kind-hearted chap. The careful consideration that you obviously put in for all those poor people who have to breathe the fumes your car pumps out, suffer the noise and congestion it produces, and presumably pay through their taxes for your medical treatment caused by stress and lack of exercise that you'll probably need if you drive everywhere, is astounding. If only everyone else had such a big heart as you evidently do....
 

Western Lord

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Gosh, you're making yourself sound like such a pleasant, kind-hearted chap. The careful consideration that you obviously put in for all those poor people who have to breathe the fumes your car pumps out, suffer the noise and congestion it produces, and presumably pay through their taxes for your medical treatment caused by stress and lack of exercise that you'll probably need if you drive everywhere, is astounding. If only everyone else had such a big heart as you evidently do....
You are just making yourself sound silly. Please try to understand that the overwhelming majority of passenger journeys are by road and can only practically be made by road. How do you know that my car pumps out fumes, for all you know I may have an electric car. I do not drive everywhere and I am in good health and take a long walk at least three times a week just for the pleasure of it. I use public transport when it makes sense, such as going in to London, but for most of the journeys I do there simply is not a public transport option and highly unlikely ever to be one, and taking public transport can be and often is much more stressful than driving, which I have never found stressful in the least, even when I was doing seventy to eighty thousand miles a year.
 

underbank

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People who work in white collar, professional industries will undoubtedly have noticed such a trend. Very few of my colleagues under 35 have a car or kids, whereas that wouldn't have been the case 20 years ago.

I presume you work in a city with good PT then. At my workplace (white collar professional office), not a single person uses public transport, simply because the nearest bus stop is a mile away, and even that has a pathetic hourly service, to the city centre bus station where you'd have to change to another bus to get home.
 

underbank

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Even in Britain you can alter your behaviour and lifestyle so that you don't need a car. For example, you can move house to near a rail station with a good service

So who'd buy all the houses that weren't near a rail station with a good service? If people didn't want to live there, the prices would plummet and people couldn't afford to sell to move to the higher priced areas near rail stations. Entire estates, small towns and villages would become derelict ghost towns. That's the end result of your suggestion which is why it's simply unworkable.
 

DarloRich

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And building more roads solves what exactly ?

you honestly cant think of anything? really? Try again.

it is clear that the ideal transport policy for many posters here is as follows:

  • stop spending any money on roads
  • roads will become bad and crowded
  • people wont be able to get around
  • in't trains BRILLIANT!
 

radamfi

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I presume you work in a city with good PT then. At my workplace (white collar professional office), not a single person uses public transport, simply because the nearest bus stop is a mile away, and even that has a pathetic hourly service, to the city centre bus station where you'd have to change to another bus to get home.

The trend is moving towards city centre employment. I've spent much of my career commuting on the M25 but most key employers in my industry are gradually moving towards central London and other major city centres. The primary reason is to attract staff, especially graduates. Graduates aren't interested in working on business parks in Leatherhead or Guildford and prefer working in central London. I can't see myself commuting by car ever again.
 

radamfi

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So who'd buy all the houses that weren't near a rail station with a good service? If people didn't want to live there, the prices would plummet and people couldn't afford to sell to move to the higher priced areas near rail stations. Entire estates, small towns and villages would become derelict ghost towns. That's the end result of your suggestion which is why it's simply unworkable.

If everyone did it, something would have to give, but for people reading this now, the option exists. Personally, I wouldn't ever live far away from a main station and I can't see that changing in the future.
 

DynamicSpirit

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You are just making yourself sound silly. Please try to understand that the overwhelming majority of passenger journeys are by road and can only practically be made by road. How do you know that my car pumps out fumes, for all you know I may have an electric car. I do not drive everywhere and I am in good health and take a long walk at least three times a week just for the pleasure of it. I use public transport when it makes sense, such as going in to London, but for most of the journeys I do there simply is not a public transport option and highly unlikely ever to be one, and taking public transport can be and often is much more stressful than driving, which I have never found stressful in the least, even when I was doing seventy to eighty thousand miles a year.

I would say that's a much more sensible post than your earlier one. Sure, using public transport when it makes sense and driving when there is no other reasonable option is sensible and realistically what most people would have to do anyway. And that is a milllion miles away from the (to paraphrase) 'I'll drive because I feel like it' tone of your previous post, which is what I was responding to.

Indeed, I don't care how much public transport is "improved", you will not get me to give up the convenience and comfort of my car for the vast majority of journeys, and if I still had a family in tow that would go double.
 

DynamicSpirit

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honestly - you are living in a fantasy world. People will not give up their cars for most journeys no mater how much you spend on the bus or however much you wrap yourself in an ecological fantasy. For many the bus is seen as a vehicle for peasants who cant afford a car and are generally failing at life while the train is seen as prohibitively expensive, especially for families.

Do you not have any vision for a better future? The attitudes you describe are probably true of many people today, but culture and people's attitudes can change, you know.

A story that might be relevant: In the early 1980s, after I'd started becoming involved in politics as a teenager, I stopped going to Labour Party meetings because it was at the time normal for people to smoke in meetings, without any consideration of the effects their smoke had on those sitting around them. And - bluntly - I couldn't stand breathing in all the smoke. The local chairman (ironically, a non-smoker) asked why I'd stopped going, and when I explained, his response was along the lines of, "Well that's a shame, but it's tough really because you'll never ever get people to give up their cigarettes." That was clearly a man with no vision of a better future - at least as far as smoking was concerned. And hey, look where we are now, little more than 30 years later. Today, it would be almost unthinkable to smoke in a public meeting!

Perhaps you should ask yourself whether you are now that man, as far as transport is concerned ;)

Of course, one other thing: We are in the happy much-less-smoking place today because successive Governments realised the problems that smoking caused, and accepted the responsibility of campaigning to make people aware of the harm from tobacco. Imagine where we'd be if, instead, successive Governments had adopted the view along the lines of, Hey, people want to smoke. So let's support it. We'll make sure that the taxes smokers pay go to make it easier for them to smoke. Hey, let's magic up £30 billion in the budget to encourage smokers and make it more pleasant for people to smoke...

Is that the kind of future you want for transport? One where the Government just throws billions of pounds at encouraging whatever most people currently want to do, completely ignoring the harm that 'what people want to do' causes to others and to wider society, and without any thought for trying to change people's attitudes?
 
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bnm

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DynamicSpirit, you are aware of the concerted push from government toward electric vehicles and banning new production of ICE vehicles by mid 21st century?

Still gonna need roads for the private car.
 

DarloRich

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Do you not have any vision for a better future? The attitudes you describe are probably true of many people today, but culture and people's attitudes can change, you know.

A story that might be relevant: In the early 1980s, after I'd started becoming involved in politics as a teenager, I stopped going to Labour Party meetings because it was at the time normal for people to smoke in meetings, without any consideration of the effects their smoke had on those sitting around them. And - bluntly - I couldn't stand breathing in all the smoke. The local chairman (ironically, a non-smoker) asked why I'd stopped going, and when I explained, his response was along the lines of, "Well that's a shame, but it's tough really because you'll never ever get people to give up their cigarettes." That was clearly a man with no vision of a better future - at least as far as smoking was concerned. And hey, look where we are now, little more than 30 years later. Today, it would be almost unthinkable to smoke in a public meeting!

Perhaps you should ask yourself whether you are now that man, as far as transport is concerned ;)

Of course, one other thing: We are in the happy much-less-smoking place today because successive Governments realised the problems that smoking caused, and accepted the responsibility of campaigning to make people aware of the harm from tobacco. Imagine where we'd be if, instead, successive Governments had adopted the view along the lines of, Hey, people want to smoke. So let's support it. We'll make sure that the taxes smokers pay go to make it easier for them to smoke. Hey, let's magic up £30 billion in the budget to encourage smokers and make it more pleasant for people to smoke...

Is that the kind of future you want for transport? One where the Government just throws billions of pounds at encouraging whatever most people currently want to do, completely ignoring the harm that 'what people want to do' causes to others and to wider society, and without any thought for trying to change people's attitudes?

Your view as with many here is clearly outlined in my post at #45.

People wont stop using their cars. They wont no matter how you much you jump up and down and cry.

As for the stuff about a better future and the stuff about smoking. Goodness me. Give your brain a chance!
 

DynamicSpirit

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Your view as with many here is clearly outlined in my post at #45.

Your post #45 does not even remotely represent my view. If you could avoid completely misrepresenting my views, it would rather be appreciated.

People wont stop using their cars. They wont no matter how you much you jump up and down and cry.

Plenty of people (including me) already have stopped using their cars because they care about the environment and about the impact that their actions have on others. And do you really need to resort to silly insults along the lines of "you jump up and down and cry"? How about you try using some reasoned arguments instead?

As for the stuff about a better future and the stuff about smoking. Goodness me. Give your brain a chance!

Or maybe you could try understanding how analogies work?
 

DynamicSpirit

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DynamicSpirit, you are aware of the concerted push from government toward electric vehicles and banning new production of ICE vehicles by mid 21st century?

Still gonna need roads for the private car.

Yes I am well aware of that push towards electric vehicles... To that extent, the smoking/cars analogy is imperfect :) The problem though is that electric cars only solve some, not all, of the problems caused by over-dependence on driving. A push towards electric vehicles combined with a push towards public transport would be a lot better!

And sure, you are still going to need roads. But I think the point is, that, if you had a decent sustainable transport policy that involved improving public transport and informing people about the problems that cars cause, then you probably wouldn't need many more roads than we already have today - so there would be no point in spending an eye-watering £30bn on road schemes. (Obviously you'd be spending smaller amounts on maintaining/modifying the roads we already have, and there would be odd isolated cases where new roads would be required).
 

Adsy125

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Yes I am well aware of that push towards electric vehicles... To that extent, the smoking/cars analogy is imperfect :) The problem though is that electric cars only solve some, not all, of the problems caused by over-dependence on driving. A push towards electric vehicles combined with a push towards public transport would be a lot better!

And sure, you are still going to need roads. But I think the point is, that, if you had a decent sustainable transport policy that involved improving public transport and informing people about the problems that cars cause, then you probably wouldn't need many more roads than we already have today - so there would be no point in spending an eye-watering £30bn on road schemes. (Obviously you'd be spending smaller amounts on maintaining/modifying the roads we already have, and there would be odd isolated cases where new roads would be required).
I would say in your analogy that electric cars a like vaping, not perfect, still damaging to others but a big improvement on what came before. They're sadly also both a distraction from a better long term aim.
 

Kite159

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Even for those commuting to work by rail, there will still be a need for some of them to drive from their house to the station, assuming they don't live within a safe walking distance [or have a suitable bus option].

And judging by how busy the car parks at my local station can get (with mostly London bound commuters), that issue won't be going away soon.

-----

For some jobs, public transport is either non-existence, or isn't useful (i.e. the bus takes you in a different direction to where you want to be, having to change for another bus to take you back towards home)
 

DarloRich

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So no not giving your brain a chance then! We are on the verge of a seismic change in the way people power their cars. Hybrid and pure electrical power will become more and more common in the next few years. That in turn will drive greener internal combustion engines. People value the choice and freedom afforded to them by cars. They wont give that up to travel on the bus no matter what you think. You need to get real about that and get out of your fantasy world where people abandon cars to travel by bus everywhere.

You also seem to place more emphasis on eco stuff than most people do.

OBVIOUSLY ( and it is clear here you have to state the blindly obvious) that doesn't mean that better public transport is not required. It is. it isn't public transport or roads, It is both. Both need investment.

Your post #45 does not even remotely represent my view. If you could avoid completely misrepresenting my views, it would rather be appreciated

Please show where your views differ. They seem clear to me.

Plenty of people (including me) already have stopped using their cars because they care about the environment and about the impact that their actions have on others. And do you really need to resort to silly insults along the lines of "you jump up and down and cry"? How about you try using some reasoned arguments instead?

I sold my car not because of some warming eco nonsense but because it was a waste of money. I live 2 minutes from a station and can be at work in either of my offices in 15 or 45 minutes by train. However, if I lived elsewhere in the town I would drive. There would be little choice. My choice works because I live next to the station but for no other reason.

BTW - Not having a car is hard work. It means you have to plan every trip carefully and cant easily decide in a spur of the moment trip. You cant even do a big shop easily! Many people don't have the luxury or the inclination to live like that. Try it with kids and see how hard it is.

Or maybe you could try understanding how analogies work?

Perhaps you could use one that makes some sense! To extend your smoking analogy you must, at the same time you were driven away from your labour party meetings because of smoke, never:
  • Drank in pub or working men's club
  • Used a bus
  • Gone to a football match
  • Worked in an office
  • Worked on a building site or factory
etc etc etc.

In fact you must only have left your house dressed in some kind of NBC suit!
 

bramling

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If behaviour like that is a primary reason (or excuse) for much private car use, then the combined effect of enforcement and the resulting change in the majority of ordinary users will reduce it to a level that it ceases to be a deterrent to those wedded to their cars.

I'd say nuisance behaviours by others is, for me, the biggest turn-off to using trains.
 

muddythefish

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you honestly cant think of anything? really? Try again.

it is clear that the ideal transport policy for many posters here is as follows:

  • stop spending any money on roads
  • roads will become bad and crowded
  • people wont be able to get around
  • in't trains BRILLIANT!

The road lobby is out in force tonight.

Spend more money on roads
Roads become more crowded
Shifts problem farther down the road
Repeat ad nauseum at vast expense
Solves nothing
Meanwhile alternatives are under-invested and wither.

And this is a transport "policy"?

How about some clear thinking?
 

radamfi

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Even for those commuting to work by rail, there will still be a need for some of them to drive from their house to the station, assuming they don't live within a safe walking distance [or have a suitable bus option].

But a huge proportion of the population are within cycling distance from the railway station. Yes, there are hills. Yes, cycle provision is poor. But now we have electric bikes hills are irrelevant. And lack of cycle provision could be fixed. In the Netherlands, it is possible to go almost anywhere to anywhere in the country by cycling to the station and hiring a bike at the other end, or leaving another bike in secure parking at the other end.
 

AM9

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I'd say nuisance behaviours by others is, for me, the biggest turn-off to using trains.
Interesting that I was thinking about part of a conversation here on traffic in St Albans. ISTR both you and Bald Rick agreed that congestion was limiting the number of commuters driving to the station. I think that is one of the possible scenarios that will be repeated across the country. As the capacity of roads and of car parks flattens out in city (and town) centres, of necessity, drivers will find alternatives to taking two tons of machine, occupying 8 sq metres of space a couple of miles to the local station. In the last 2-3 years, there has been an improvement in commuter bus services from the edge of St Albans to the station. In addition many more people walk the journey (via the Alban Way) or even cycle, - and St Albans is not a particularly cycle-friendly terrain. I can't firn the number of cycle parking slots there but it is probably now over 1500.
My point is that there are trends away from car commuting (whether the total journeys or just to a local station). It seems that the trends are the strongest where the local authorities aren't pandering to car demand. So somewhere between a carrot like giving subsidies for non (local) polluting vehicles, and lower than cost bus connections, to the other end of the nudge spectrum which is raising the effective cost of driving simultaneously with making it more time consuming. It seems that some of the selfish CO2 warriors on this thread can't see how that will inevitably happen. Maybe they are too young to remember the grim days of unrestricted smoking or the scourge of drink-driving.
 

bramling

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Interesting that I was thinking about part of a conversation here on traffic in St Albans. ISTR both you and Bald Rick agreed that congestion was limiting the number of commuters driving to the station. I think that is one of the possible scenarios that will be repeated across the country. As the capacity of roads and of car parks flattens out in city (and town) centres, of necessity, drivers will find alternatives to taking two tons of machine, occupying 8 sq metres of space a couple of miles to the local station. In the last 2-3 years, there has been an improvement in commuter bus services from the edge of St Albans to the station. In addition many more people walk the journey (via the Alban Way) or even cycle, - and St Albans is not a particularly cycle-friendly terrain. I can't firn the number of cycle parking slots there but it is probably now over 1500.
My point is that there are trends away from car commuting (whether the total journeys or just to a local station). It seems that the trends are the strongest where the local authorities aren't pandering to car demand. So somewhere between a carrot like giving subsidies for non (local) polluting vehicles, and lower than cost bus connections, to the other end of the nudge spectrum which is raising the effective cost of driving simultaneously with making it more time consuming. It seems that some of the selfish CO2 warriors on this thread can't see how that will inevitably happen. Maybe they are too young to remember the grim days of unrestricted smoking or the scourge of drink-driving.

St Albans is a particularly bad example - I suspect it's probably one of the most congested towns (or city as it prefers to call itself!) in Britain, and with a station that's particularly hemmed in and located in a very bad location for road access.

I suspect it would be much harder to force a change in habits at somewhere like, for example, Arlesey. I pick that example as in the last couple of years it's gained a rather massive new car park next to the station on what was previously green fields, and has a lot of railheading.

Personally, there's leisure activities I do for which there's little realistic alternative but to use the car - although I do use the train combined with bike occasionally if more convenient. In reality this won't change pretty much no matter what happens!
 
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