Budget: Another £30bn for roads

[DynamicSpirit]

You aren't allowed to use your car to go shopping, that is bad for the environment. Then you have a small child in a pushchair so you cannot use public transport because when you are loaded with bags and cannot fold the pushchair you are nothing more than an inconvenience and a bad parent. That means you are left with home delivery, but the same lobbyists who say you shouldn't use your car also say you shouldn't use home delivery because the increasing fleet of vans are bad for the environment too. You are left with a daily trip to the overpriced local shop, but that has now closed because of the supermarket. Your only option is to starve.

Who is saying you shouldn't use home delivery? I very much doubt that it's the same lobbyists telling you not to go to the supermarket or to have stuff delivered because clearly that'd be silly - you have to do one or the other! Off the top of my head I can't recall anyone saying you shouldn't use home delivery for environmental reasons. I have heard that there are possible issues with supermarkets being very inefficient in how they use their vans, but obviously that's something for the supermarkets to sort out.

 

[al78]

We are talking about where cycling is a viable option. So we are mostly talking about within urban areas, so everything should be well lit. Hills are irrelevant because of electric bikes. A very large proportion of Dutch people (something like 40%) access the rail station by bicycle.

Hills are not irrelevant. I know because I used to cycle every day to work which is 10 miles each direction and my workplace is up in the Surrey hills. Try going up Rowhook hill (West Sussex) and Holmbury hill (Surrey) day after day after day, and let me know how tired you feel at the end of the week It is one of those things that is doable, but nobody will choose to do such a commute unless they have an interest in cycling, or are passionate about lowering their carbon footprint. I'm not convinced about electric bikes. They may give a small boost of power, but the power is very limited which cuts out at about 15 mph, and once the battery runs out (as it will one day), you are left riding a bike with the aerodynamics of a breeze block and weighting twice as much.

I am one for investing in alternatives to the car and encouraging more sustainable and responsible lifestyle choices (those that harp on about personal freedom seem to ignore externalised costs onto other people, and that allowing public transport to go into decline and decades of optimising things for car drivers ultimately suppresses the freedom for those who don't own a car, either through choice of compulsion), but DarloRich is correct that the car is too convenient for people to even significantly cut down on using, never mind giving it up. I gave up driving for two and a half years until I got hit by a careless driver when cycling to work, and I can confidently say that not using a car does require more thought, planning, restriction, and physical effort, and some activities (such as transporting 12 bags of manure to my allotment), are impossible.

 

[radamfi]

Hills are not irrelevant. I know because I used to cycle every day to work which is 10 miles each direction and my workplace is up in the Surrey hills. Try going up Rowhook hill (West Sussex) and Holmbury hill (Surrey) day after day after day, and let me know how tired you feel at the end of the week It is one of those things that is doable, but nobody will choose to do such a commute unless they have an interest in cycling, or are passionate about lowering their carbon footprint. I'm not convinced about electric bikes. They may give a small boost of power, but the power is very limited which cuts out at about 15 mph, and once the battery runs out (as it will one day), you are left riding a bike with the aerodynamics of a breeze block and weighting twice as much.

But you are talking about riding long distances in a rural area. I'm talking about the type of journeys that the Dutch use the bicycle for. So that is for trips around town or to the railway station. For such journeys, the capacity of an electric bike battery is more than enough. Although there is some evidence that the electric bike is enabling Dutch people to use the bicycle for slightly longer journeys. And if you ride into the Dutch countryside on a nice day you will see countless elderly people doing lengthy rides, often with "his and hers" electric bikes of the same make.

I'm not sure what the relevance of the 15 mph limit is. Electric bikes are not about speed as athletic cyclists can go much faster using a light-weight road bike. Indeed, if you are happy doing utilitarian cycling using a regular bike then that is better as you will get more exercise. But electric bikes are there for people who aren't interested in exercise and just want to go from A to B easily without worrying about hills or strong winds. If you ride an electric bike in full power at 15 mph then you will only need to put in a little effort.

 

[underbank]

I'm talking about the type of journeys that the Dutch use the bicycle for.

Generally, Holland is flatter than the UK. Lots of Northern towns and Cities are very hilly, especially Lancashire/Yorkshire. It's fine for healthy/fit seasoned cycling enthusiasts, but you're really not going to get your average shop/office/hospital worker to commute daily by bike when the journey is up/down hills most of the way.

 

[underbank]

I am one for investing in alternatives to the car and encouraging more sustainable and responsible lifestyle choices (those that harp on about personal freedom seem to ignore externalised costs onto other people, and that allowing public transport to go into decline and decades of optimising things for car drivers ultimately suppresses the freedom for those who don't own a car, either through choice of compulsion), but DarloRich is correct that the car is too convenient for people to even significantly cut down on using, never mind giving it up. I gave up driving for two and a half years until I got hit by a careless driver when cycling to work, and I can confidently say that not using a car does require more thought, planning, restriction, and physical effort, and some activities (such as transporting 12 bags of manure to my allotment), are impossible.

Likewise, I am self employed and decided nearly 20 years ago to relocate my office to be closer to home so I can walk/cycle. I have also "internet-ised" my business so that I don't have to travel out to visit clients as much - now, I leave the office maybe once or twice per month and usually don't leave my town, whereas 20 years ago, it was once or twice per week travelling up to 100-200 miles per day to visit clients. It's taken nearly 20 years to get to where I am today. Reducing car use is a very long term commitment by all involved, included customers, workers, firms, local authorities, public transport, etc. What's important is that there is greater awareness and trends towards less travel - not just cars, but public transport is also polluting and an inefficient use of time - we all need to make more use of skype, online meetings, working from home opportunities, to reduce travelling. Big firms also need to stop concentrating in big cities and start opening (or at least not closing) regional offices to reduce the need for huge numbers of daily commuters into city centres. It shouldn't be about reducing car use and using public transport instead - it should be reducing travel in all ways.

 

[radamfi]

Generally, Holland is flatter than the UK. Lots of Northern towns and Cities are very hilly, especially Lancashire/Yorkshire. It's fine for healthy/fit seasoned cycling enthusiasts, but you're really not going to get your average shop/office/hospital worker to commute daily by bike when the journey is up/down hills most of the way.

That's the whole reason why I'm talking about electric bikes, so we no longer need to have concerns about hills. Even in a hilly town, riding an electric bike at full power is easy. I'm surprised nobody reading this can corroborate. I guess this shows how little awareness there still is about electric bikes.

 

[radamfi]

Big firms also need to stop concentrating in big cities and start opening (or at least not closing) regional offices to reduce the need for huge numbers of daily commuters into city centres. It shouldn't be about reducing car use and using public transport instead - it should be reducing travel in all ways.

I would certainly agree that there is a huge scope for more home working. I suspect much of the current office presence is about demonstrating that you are actually doing work. This applies especially for more senior staff who spend much of the day in Skype conference calls. That might as well be done at home.

However, it is preferable for companies to have offices in major city centres with excellent rail access rather than small town or out-of-town locations which encourage car commuting. Those places are only good for people who live in the close vicinity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder how the aspiration of greatly reduced car travel and reliance upon same expressed upon this thread would be viewed by those British car workers who jobs would be threatened?

 

[furnessvale]

I wonder how the aspiration of greatly reduced car travel and reliance upon same expressed upon this thread would be viewed by those British car workers who jobs would be threatened?

Job protection didn't work for the Luddites and I don't think it should overly colour our views here.

 

[JohnMcL7]

That's the whole reason why I'm talking about electric bikes, so we no longer need to have concerns about hills. Even in a hilly town, riding an electric bike at full power is easy. I'm surprised nobody reading this can corroborate. I guess this shows how little awareness there still is about electric bikes.

The general UK attitude towards ebikes is a bit strange as there's a lot of snobbery towards them and those who use them are seen as lazy, I frequently find people believe ebikes are just electric mopeds and no different to using a car. I think they're an absolutely fantastic technology and a great way to get people cycling, improve fitness.

When my Mum retired she decided she wanted to try and cycle a bit so she gave it a go but never really stuck with it. She then started hiring a nice hybrid e-bike then bought one herself and she loves it, she very quickly took to using it regularly for every day tasks. I'd go out cycling with her on any bike but she always worried I'd slow her up but on the ebike there's no such worry and I can choose any route I want through the countryside as I only need to worry about hills for myself.

I'm also impressed what a difference it has had on her fitness as she recently hired a single speed shaft drive bike, a tougher cycle than her own original non-ebike and not that easy going however she managed 16 miles alongside a geared bike and she felt fine afterwards. She can adjust the power setting depending on how fit or tired she's feeling, when she first used the ebike she was always in the maximum assist mode but now she regularly uses it in medium or low to extend the range and because she's more capable. She has the assurance she can bump the power back when she's feeling tired. In my MTB group we have an older cyclist who has been suffering from long term infections who uses an ebike to build his fitness back up until he's fit enough again to ride without the motor.

When I was abroad in Germany in a pictoresque little town with many cyclists going up and down the riverside path which had its own designated cycle lane separate to the road and the pavement, at least 50% of the bikes were ebikes and they were easy to hire there as well. I can see it changing though as bike shops are definitely seeing this as a good market to get into and some of the bike shops here now have ebikes displayed more prominently than others.

 

[birchesgreen]

Just what someone really wants, a bike ride at six o'clock in the morning along dark hilly roads (for there be no street lighting), when it be cold & wet. A hard day at work in London to come back to ride back home along dark hilly roads, in the cold & wet at around seven in the evening...

... Just where do I sign up?

Not that many people around on the roads those times, to be honest if i was riding a bike i'd choose then.

 

[Class37.4]

It’s fair to say I love my car and I certainly have no interest in using it less and personally I don’t think 30 billion is enough.

Yes I do have some concerns about environmental impact and hence I recently swapped my diesel for an economical small petrol hatch back.

Yes I would consider an electric car at some point but there needs to be more choice and a reasonably priced second hand market for me to consider one.

The fact is a lot of the population certainly outside London are Weded to their car and your going to have one hell of a job changing that.