Budget: Another £30bn for roads

[muddythefish]

Here we go again.... and not a penny extra for the railways

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-greenhouse-gas-ipcc-greenpeace-a8604886.html

Green campaigners have lined up to attack chancellor Philip Hammond for announcing a multi-billion-pound boost for building and upgrading roads – days after world scientists urgently warned that greenhouse gas emissions must be cut.

In Monday’s budget, Mr Hammond is due to champion £30bn of funding for new roads and road repairs, hailing it “the biggest-ever cash injection for England’s largest roads”.

 

[Bucephalus]

At least it will improve the rail replacement journey times. Every cloud

 

[Cowley]

At least it will improve the rail replacement journey times. Every cloud

 

[Macwomble]

....and most of it, probably, for south of the Watford Gap.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Good. I'm sick and tired of pot holes not to mention delays on the A38.

 

[Clip]

and awaiting the usual clueless wibble from one eyed spotters unable to see the bigger picture......................

I think that happened in the first post

 

[Groningen]

Correct me if i am wrong, but the electrification has stopped at Cardiff and not extended to Swansea?!

 

[Kite159]

Good, the roads need extra money to be repaired and improved

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is £30 billion enough to repair all the potholes? Somehow I doubt it...

 

[underbank]

Brilliant news if it happens. Roads are here to stay for another couple of decades or so. If, and it's a big IF, public transport is widely improved, it'll take a decade to be built and then another decade for peoples' travelling habits to change once they finally have a decent public transport network again. In the meantime, people need a decent road network, not just for commuting, but also to cope with the ever increasing number of home deliveries from supermarkets, Amazon, etc which will still need roads.

 

[507021]

Good news.

 

[bnm]

Excellent news for someone like me. I took to driving 18 months ago for two reasons. The first was geographical, I'd moved from a big city with generally good public transport to an area with no nearby station and a generally poor (FirstGroup) bus service. Second, was the growing realisation that I could no longer rely on GWR to get me where I wanted to go without a hassle of some sort on almost every journey. I'd much rather sit in traffic these days than sit on a delayed train, or be hassled by that minority of GWR rail staff who are either inept, or delight in making life difficult for rail passengers. I live nearer SWR stations now, but FirstGroup toxicity has infected that TOC so I avoid them too whenever possible.

So, aged 44, I finally took and passed my driving test. Now it's the dire state of the roads I moan about more than the state of the railways! You could argue that FirstGroup forced me into driving.

Planned projects I do hope finally sees shovels on the ground are: the duelling of the A358 between the M5 at Taunton and the A303 at Ilminster; A30 improvements over the Blackdown Hills on the Somerset/Devon border; duelling of the A303 between Sparkford and Podimore in Somerset; and duelling/tunnelling of the section of the A303 past Stonehenge. All bottlenecks that urgently need addressing. All parts of the road network in the west I now use. If my Vehicle Excuse Duty is to be hypothecated to directly pay for road improvements then I'm all for it.

 

[AM9]

... If my Vehicle Excuse Duty is to be hypothecated to directly pay for road improvements then I'm all for it.

So will the pollution levy (as in VED) be added to this hypothecated 'road tax' to cover the damage that road IC engines cause?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Brilliant news if it happens. Roads are here to stay for another couple of decades or so. If, and it's a big IF, public transport is widely improved, it'll take a decade to be built and then another decade for peoples' travelling habits to change once they finally have a decent public transport network again.

Not necessarily. It's true that investment in railways would - if it meant new lines and stations etc. - take a decade or so to come to fruition. But if that kind of investment was put into buses and used wisely, it would probably only take a couple of years to see very significant results.

The other trouble is... You rightly point out that it will take time for people to change their travel habits even after investment. But putting that investment into roads is simply going to delay that process of getting people out of cars even longer. Surely, the fact that it often takes people time to respond to investment in public transport gives more reason to make that investment in public transport now.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Darlorich - You mean, the bigger picture that investment in roads inevitably causes more car dependency which leads to more self-defeating congestion, not to mention the pollution?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Excellent news for someone like me. I took to driving 18 months ago for two reasons. The first was geographical, I'd moved from a big city with generally good public transport to an area with no nearby station and a generally poor (FirstGroup) bus service. Second, was the growing realisation that I could no longer rely on GWR to get me where I wanted to go without a hassle of some sort on almost every journey. I'd much rather sit in traffic these days than sit on a delayed train, or be hassled by that minority of GWR rail staff who are either inept, or delight in making life difficult for rail passengers. I live nearer SWR stations now, but FirstGroup toxicity has infected that TOC so I avoid them too whenever possible.

Isn't the answer to that to direct investment into trains and buses so that they can give you better and more reliable service, so that perhaps you (and millions of people like you) might not need to use the car as much?

Planned projects I do hope finally sees shovels on the ground are: the duelling of the A358 between the M5 at Taunton and the A303 at Ilminster; A30 improvements over the Blackdown Hills on the Somerset/Devon border; duelling of the A303 between Sparkford and Podimore in Somerset; and duelling/tunnelling of the section of the A303 past Stonehenge. All bottlenecks that urgently need addressing.

And how will you feel if (very plausibly, when) billions have been spent on those investments, and you discover the result is that your journeys are generally no quicker than before because your faster bits on the dual carriageways have been cancelled out by the greater congestion in the towns at the ends of your journeys - congestion that will have been directly caused by those road improvements? Oh, and when the road improvements caused bus usage to decline further so your bus service got even worse?

 

[bnm]

Isn't the answer to that to direct investment into trains and buses so that they can give you better and more reliable service, so that perhaps you (and millions of people like you) might not need to use the car as much?

Yes please. £56bn or so should cover a comprehensive improvement to regional rail and bus services, for those areas that aren't getting funding because they ain't a 'Northern Powerhouse' or 'Midlands Machine'. Those areas that the Tories aren't bothering with because they see them as safe shoe-in constituencies. A few line reopenings for areas long bereft of rail services. Proper rural bus services based on social need rather than profit. I'd vote for that. It should get your million or so out of the cars that are their only realistic choice.

Now where could we find £56bn from...? Oh, I know. There's a political vanity project that is swallowing just that amount to join two cities that are already well connected. Offering unnecessary fast trains (although the lie is it's not about speed but capacity - capacity my arse), just so the muppets in Westminster can show they are keeping up with the Joneses.

Lucky North and Midlands being bought off by the Tories. Meanwhile a large swathe of England, from The Marches to The Lizard via the Jurassic Coast is ignored because there's no political capital to be gained by offering real public transport improvements to those areas. Keep the natives happy with some road improvements instead. Which, despite my hopes for the specific improvements mentioned in my previous post, will probably only be minor tinkering and not the necessary bigger projects. Spreadsheet Phil's £30bn will be hoovered up by road projects in areas where Tory votes are needed.

It's a hard life being a liberal socialist in a tory heartland. But what can I do? I'm Zummerzet to the core. Cuts me an' I bleeds zyder dun I?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Isn't the answer to that to direct investment into trains and buses so that they can give you better and more reliable service, so that perhaps you (and millions of people like you) might not need to use the car as much?

With regards to trains stated above, on each Saturday for the last ten weeks in the area covered by the Northern Rail franchise shows that despite any new trains that indeed are on order, the RMT are the ones whose decree says whether intended rail passengers are allowed to travel by rail on that day and can rely upon rail travel ... or not as the case, so having the personal freedom to circumvent such "industrial inaction" by the use of privately-owned cars is something that must really be a constant source of both irritation and annoyment to a certain Mick Cash.

 

[DarloRich]

You mean, the bigger picture that investment in roads inevitably causes more car dependency which leads to more self-defeating congestion, not to mention the pollution?

Point proven. Preposterous fantasy green world stuff. No matter how much you wish it people wont give up their cars and get the bus. You need to get real.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Point proven. Preposterous fantasy green world stuff. No matter how much you wish it people wont give up their cars and get the bus. You need to get real.

That's a bit like someone in the 1970s saying people won't give up their cigarettes or people won't accept being compelled to wear seat belts or people won't give up their freedom to drink and drive. In every case, social attitudes changed to a large extent because the Government accepted responsibility for campaigning to get social attitudes to change. No reason why, given time, the same can't happen with unnecessary driving - which is easily as big a problem for society as the issues I've just referred to. (Obviously, I realise that some of the car journeys being made are necessary and will remain necessary no matter how much investment is made in public transport. Other journeys of course can only realistically be made be car today, but would be realistic by public transport in a few years if only some of that £30bn was directed at public transport instead of roads)

 

[Clip]

That's a bit like someone in the 1970s saying people won't give up their cigarettes or people won't accept being compelled to wear seat belts or people won't give up their freedom to drink and drive.

This is a rather silly comparison because 2 of them actually became illegal and are still ignored by some people and the tabs one they just restricted them more and more from advertising to age limits to no branding on packets - rather different to what Darlorich was saying

 

[SteveP29]

the duelling of the A358 between the M5 at Taunton and the A303 at Ilminster

The A358 between the top of the hill at the junction of the A378 and Ashill used to scare the s**t out of me when I was on my 125.
The other side of the hill to Ruishton was a blast though

 

[otomous]

I’ve noticed that rail enthusiasts are generally more interested in hardware or travelling for the sake of it (eg riding on every unit of a class etc) or heritage - steam locos in particular, than actually using or seeing rail as a serious mode of practical travel.

 

[Western Lord]

I’ve noticed that rail enthusiasts are generally more interested in hardware or travelling for the sake of it (eg riding on every unit of a class etc) or heritage - steam locos in particular, than actually using or seeing rail as a serious mode of practical travel.

Indeed, I don't care how much public transport is "improved", you will not get me to give up the convenience and comfort of my car for the vast majority of journeys, and if I still had a family in tow that would go double.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed, I don't care how much public transport is "improved", you will not get me to give up the convenience and comfort of my car for the vast majority of journeys, and if I still had a family in tow that would go double.

and there is the best answer you are going to see all day. it is something posters like @DynamicSpirit would do well to grasp & understand. People want choice and exercise their own personal choice.

That's a bit like someone in the 1970s saying people won't give up their cigarettes or people won't accept being compelled to wear seat belts or people won't give up their freedom to drink and drive. In every case, social attitudes changed to a large extent because the Government accepted responsibility for campaigning to get social attitudes to change. No reason why, given time, the same can't happen with unnecessary driving - which is easily as big a problem for society as the issues I've just referred to. (Obviously, I realise that some of the car journeys being made are necessary and will remain necessary no matter how much investment is made in public transport. Other journeys of course can only realistically be made be car today, but would be realistic by public transport in a few years if only some of that £30bn was directed at public transport instead of roads)

honestly - you are living in a fantasy world. People will not give up their cars for most journeys no mater how much you spend on the bus or however much you wrap yourself in an ecological fantasy. For many the bus is seen as a vehicle for peasants who cant afford a car and are generally failing at life while the train is seen as prohibitively expensive, especially for families.

I will point out I don't own a car but do have some connection with reality and do travel by car on occasion.

 

[radamfi]

Indeed, I don't care how much public transport is "improved", you will not get me to give up the convenience and comfort of my car for the vast majority of journeys, and if I still had a family in tow that would go double.

The key is to look whether public transport is used by car owners in Switzerland, which has arguably the best public transport in the world.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The key is to look whether public transport is used by car owners in Switzerland, which has arguably the best public transport in the world.

On various threads on this particular website over the years, people are want to cite countries like Switzerland and Germany when discussing public transport, but that aspiration totally ignores the fact that public transport usage in Britain is one that sees the British status quo of it being the result of Governmental decree in how such a mode of transport actually exists.

 

[radamfi]

On various threads on this particular website over the years, people are want to cite countries like Switzerland and Germany when discussing public transport, but that aspiration totally ignores the fact that public transport usage in Britain is one that sees the British status quo of it being the result of Governmental decree in how such a mode of transport actually exists.

But where an attractive service is provided, it is often well used. For example, Metrolink and busways such as Cambridge to St Ives. In that respect, Britain is little different to elsewhere.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But where an attractive service is provided, it is often well used. For example, Metrolink and busways such as Cambridge to St Ives. In that respect, Britain is little different to elsewhere.

The Leigh Guided Busway also seems to have carried quite a number of passengers in modern double-deck buses with terminal points of both Leigh (V1 service) and Atherton (V2 service), both of which have had their Manchester terminal point extended from central Manchester through to the Manchester Royal Infirmary complex.

My previous point actually sought to highlight the fact that howsoever Swiss and German examples that were quoted in present and past times may well be seen as advantageous to those enthusiasts with no actual power base but interested in transport matters, it will take far more persuasion to convince the Government that such modes of transport be seen to have a mirror image in Britain and you only have to look at the title of this thread to see how well entrenched the road system of this country is seen by Government.

 

[ac6000cw]

The key is to look whether public transport is used by car owners in Switzerland, which has arguably the best public transport in the world.

Of course it is - for journeys where it is a sensible choice - just the same as in the UK. Switzerland also has a modern, well-maintained road network, and a lot of private cars.

I own a car, but I also use buses, trains and my feet to get around - whichever best fits the journey, and I think a lot of people take the same attitude (pragmatism) towards transport choices. If the railway has a good product offering (relative to the local alternatives) people will use it when it makes sense.