BTP demanding extra coaches

[Travelmonkey]

So for context trying to get home last night went for the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans to the point a small squadron of BTP arrived, anyway between EMR & BTP and the rowdy behaviour of the traveling fans that train was cancelled due to disorder. EMR control wanted to send the next train 2047 as another 2 coach when it came in as a 4 (2x turbostars to split at Derby) to which the BTP officers were not happy basically forcing them (thankfully) to run it as a 4 car train instead. Does make me wonder how much sway they have on the TOCs.

 

[Towers]

So for context trying to get home last night went for the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans to the point a small squadron of BTP arrived, anyway between EMR & BTP and the rowdy behaviour of the traveling fans that train was cancelled due to disorder. EMR control wanted to send the next train 2047 as another 2 coach when it came in as a 4 (2x turbostars to split at Derby) to which the BTP officers were not happy basically forcing them (thankfully) to run it as a 4 car train instead. Does make me wonder how much sway they have on the TOCs.

The BTP have no authority over TOC control; what likely happened is that phonecalls were made between those on the train/platform and the control office, and common sense prevailed. BTP may well have had some level of ‘input’, but they aren’t dictating train formations!

 

[trainmania100]

Thousands of supporters leave Falmer by train for amex Brighton matches. It takes many trains to fully clear the waiting queue of fans which snakes up over the footbridge.

The length of a train has only the effect of clearing the queue faster. Nothing about safety. If a 2 car train is crammed to sardines, so too will a 4 or 8 car. It's just going to get the queue home quicker. All the platform staff do is fill the train to capacity, whatever it's length

I'm all for longer trains on match days as I have waited a good hour to board a train at falmer in the rush to leave the stadium. But I'd say like buses there's not really anything to do other than increasing frequency. Onboard patrol is no good because you can't move

Id say longer trains combined with no standing passengers would be the safest way forward

 

[LCC106]

I’m surprised BTP would have any say! Especially since at that time of night trains may need to be in certain places for the next day. It was the Greatest Gathering in Derby so as well as that, football and a music festival as well it’s a case of where do you strengthen services even if you have the trains available. To be fair the conductor would probably be in their right mind to cancel the train if they were concerned about safety.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I’m surprised BTP would have any say! Especially since at that time of night trains may need to be in certain places for the next day. It was the Greatest Gathering in Derby so as well as that, football and a music festival as well it’s a case of where do you strengthen services even if you have the trains available. To be fair the conductor would probably be in their right mind to cancel the train if they were concerned about safety.

They certainly were not happy with EMR that's for sure. Although they managed to get the 2047 to go getting to my destination 30 mins down, they got to Derby a minute early on the 1947 and yeah it was supper rammed.

 

[Towers]

They certainly were not happy with EMR that's for sure. Although they managed to get the 2047 to go getting to my destination 30 mins down, they got to Derby a minute early on the 1947 and yeah it was supper rammed.

BTP demanding “extra coaches” in the currently climate - which overwhelmingly simply don’t exist - would merely demonstrate a failure to grasp the real world situation in which today’s railway has to operate, which in turn would do them no favours in terms of their credibility! Whilst they of course do work together at times for very reasons, the BTP do a very different job to a TOC!

 

[styles]

Thousands of supporters leave Falmer by train for amex Brighton matches. It takes many trains to fully clear the waiting queue of fans which snakes up over the footbridge.

The length of a train has only the effect of clearing the queue faster. Nothing about safety.

While I do mostly agree, I suspect that the longer a queue exists, the greater the chance of (often drunk) people getting annoyed and kicking off or trying harder to push onto full trains or past barriers etc.

 

[Magdalia]

So for context trying to get home last night went for the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans

A bit more context.

Port Vale were promoted from league 2 to league 1 last May.

The fixtures were published on 26 June.

Port Vale were away at Rotherham.

The overcrowding at Derby was fans who had travelled from Rotherham and were changing trains at Derby.

the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans to the point a small squadron of BTP arrived, anyway between EMR & BTP and the rowdy behaviour of the traveling fans that train was cancelled due to disorder.

Is it reasonable to expect either EMR or BTP to have anticipated this?

 

[357]

the BTP officers were not happy basically forcing them (thankfully) to run it as a 4 car train instead.

I can tell you categorically that this didn't happen.

The BTP like to think the run the railway, but they don't.

They are funded by and work for the TOCs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

They certainly were not happy with EMR that's for sure.

Situation normal for their officers with any traincrew/TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

Although they managed to get the 2047 to go

Do BTP now dispatch trains? What do you mean by this?

 

[Snow1964]

Is it reasonable to expect either EMR or BTP to have anticipated this?

There used to be, and has been for decades, and it might still exist a small part of BTP that would be aware of football fixtures and routes fans likely to take. At one time police often travelled on the relevant trains.

It is not exactly hard to use a ticketing site (like this forums one) and work out if x thousand away fans need to be at y station by z time, and will return about 3 hours later, which trains does it suggest.

Remember we are in an era of split ticketing, and will often pick unrestricted day returns for least part of the journey.

Someone in EMR control should probably be more savvy, if they have sold in advance hundreds of tickets for a line (and I assume they do have ticket sales data) then a 2car unit is unlikely to have capacity.

Its simple lack of joined up thinking, not checking for events that might boost demand.

 

[GordonT]

The BTP have no authority over TOC control;

Indeed but presumably nothing to prevent an assertive BTP officer (with the benefit of actually trying to manage a situation at the coal face) from instigating a full and frank discussion? Not saying that was the case in this instance.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The length of a train has only the effect of clearing the queue faster. Nothing about safety.

That just isn't true though, for two reasons.

The first is simply the longer a queue exists, the more chance there is for incidents to occur / people to get frustrated and act up etc.

The second is that when large queues and crowds exist, and the trains clearly don't have enough capacity, there will likely be a surge of people trying to board the trains when they arrive, which of course risks things like falls and crushes etc.

 

[Carnforth_24]

Do Port Vale have that many fans?!

 

[Bald Rick]

It is not exactly hard to use a ticketing site (like this forums one) and work out if x thousand away fans need to be at y station by z time, and will return about 3 hours later, which trains does it suggest.

This is Port Vale we’re talking about.

 

[OscarH]

cancelled due to disorder

On the face of it this seems like a strange decision - by cancelling it you've moved the same disorder to the following train which will be even more sardined and unpleasant, and hence likely to incite problems

 

[185]

Had this some years ago with another company's control at Manchester, after two concerts. Platform was neatly stacked, 15 deep, 700 passengers. Last train of the night. The traincrew rung control to tell them that a three car unit just wouldn't do. Control said, "no, it's booked a 3-car and that's what they'll get. If we leave people, it's tough."

The cops were nearby and offered to have a quiet word. Then after a brief erm.. discussion with BTP's, shall I call him the rather outspoken Chief Inspector McB******, our wonderful Duty Control Manager miraculously produced another 3-car set from out of the sky. I have never heard such words being used in a spectacular way like that before, and can only assume that our Control Manager was crying under the desk for the rest of the night.

In rolled the other 3, all 6 cars only just got the remainder on.

As for football fans, specifically Port Vale whose behaviour is particularly bad - if the disorder is such that the train becomes unsafe, cancel it, not to call orders for Longport and Stoke. Educate them.

 

[Haywain]

Do Port Vale have that many fans?!

A total of 2,052 at Rotherham yesterday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

On the face of it this seems like a strange decision - by cancelling it you've moved the same disorder to the following train which will be even more sardined and unpleasant, and hence likely to incite problems

I am guessing that it might have been cancelled because the driver or guard refused to take it rather than at the behest of the BTP. As you suggest, it just transfers the problem to the platform but traincrew will not be concerned about that.

 

[Harpo]

From experience, if this was BTP initiated, I would expect there to have been a conversation at front line management level or passed via controls. If that conversation resulted in a train going forward with additional vehicles I would suspect that it has been suggested that doing otherwise would lead to an unsafe situation. When any police force suggests your actions might lead to that, it’s wise to listen and react.

Pure speculation here, but my experience of similar situations.

 

[43066]

Indeed but presumably nothing to prevent an assertive BTP officer (with the benefit of actually trying to manage a situation at the coal face) from instigating a full and frank discussion? Not saying that was the case in this instance.

BTP cannot order trains to run. As a driver if a BTP officer attempted to order me to operate a train I’d be going straight back to the messroom, and a complaint would go in.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Control said, "no, it's booked a 3-car and that's what they'll get. If we leave people, it's tough."

If that is the last train of the night then the railway is legally obligated to get all paying passengers to their destination, regardless of whether they are football fans or not. If they are unable to be carried by train(s) then alternative transport is mandated, or, as a last resort, hotels. Control does not have the right to take decisions that cause the railway to fail in their obligation. On too many occasions lately TOCs are getting a free pass to strand customers after the last train was either cancelled or inadequately formed. This unacceptable behaviour has been normalised by DfT/ORR turning a blind eye for political reasons - I.e. it’s ultimately their fault. I will expect GBR executive (whatever form that takes) to get a grip and enforce these legal obligations.

 

[The exile]

While I do mostly agree, I suspect that the longer a queue exists, the greater the chance of (often drunk) people getting annoyed and kicking off or trying harder to push onto full trains or past barriers etc.

And there’s a vast difference in perception between what those waiting perceive as normal length trains turning up at 10 - 15 minute intervals and what people see as “short trains” every hour or so. Even worse if a train is actually shortened in full view!

 

[GatwickDepress]

While I do mostly agree, I suspect that the longer a queue exists, the greater the chance of (often drunk) people getting annoyed and kicking off or trying harder to push onto full trains or past barriers etc.

Late into the evening you'll also have people worried they'll miss the last train and this can sour quickly from stress about being stranded overnight. People have heard enough horror stories about train companies abandoning passengers not to trust them.

 

[exbrel]

a few years ago the Derby - Crewe service was eith er a 2 or 1 car, i was on i think a 4 or 5 pm from Derby, and it was a 1 car service. It was reasonably full leaving Derby with holiday makers plus suitcases, then we arrived at Uttoxeter after the races had finished, those wanting to get on could have filled a 4car, but we only had 1, now that was rammed, they were standing in the aisle, but we left loads on the platform. Surly at control they would have known about the usual race traffic...

 

[Haywain]

Late into the evening you'll also have people worried they'll miss the last train and this can sour quickly from stress about being stranded overnight. People have heard enough horror stories about train companies abandoning passengers not to trust them.

But the trains under discussion weren't the last trains, so you're introducing an irrelevance.

 

[GatwickDepress]

But the trains under discussion weren't the last trains, so you're introducing an irrelevance.

I disagree. People are very easily panicked and want reassurance, especially on infrequent routes.

 

[Haywain]

I disagree. People are very easily panicked and want reassurance, especially on infrequent routes.

And in this case the reassurance would be that there this isn't the last train.

 

[dk1]

BTP can advise or request but that’s as far as it goes. No control whatsoever into the day to day running and allocation of trains.

 

[The exile]

And in this case the reassurance would be that there this isn't the last train.

It might be the last train that gets them to where they need to be at the time they need to be there.
Another element is that not only are we getting “fobbed off” by computer (or corporate) generated platitudes more and more; the access that we have to other sources of information means that we are quicker to realise we are being fobbed off (even when sometimes we aren’t).

 

[LowLevel]

They'd strengthened lots of diagrams over the weekend for lots of reasons taking advantage of not running to Liverpool but you can't strengthen everything.

It would appear the traincrew on the 1947 service objected to the conduct of their passengers and refused to lock themselves into a train with them so the service was cancelled.

The second train was initially running as booked as a 2 car dropping off the 2nd set at Derby for overnight stabling but following feedback from the front line staff (which probably included BTP) control arranged for it to run through as 4 cars with the second set running back empty to Derby afterwards - stabling extra trains on someone else's depot at Crewe isn't always easy to sort out at short notice.

Behaviour yesterday was rubbish everywhere with large numbers of disorder related delays. Presumably start of the football season combined with OK weather and payday.

 

[Harpo]

I will expect GBR executive (whatever form that takes) to get a grip and enforce these legal obligations.

Off topic, sorry. And who will appoint the GBR leaders? We’ve already seen current senior leaders announcing their retirement in advance so the talent pool of real railway management expertise is already shrinking.