BTP demanding extra coaches

[800001]

To be fair the North Staffs on a Sunday is just a bit of a mess starts later on although the issue is more short platforms rather than the traction. Although we already have a thread on that elsewhere.

Late start due to signallers isn't it?

People complain on short services yet when a 5 car also moan, can't please them

 

[Travelmonkey]

Late start due to signallers isn't it?

People complain on short services yet when a 5 car also moan, can't please them

what can i say I'm fussy give me a nice round 4 . yeah the north staffs is constrained as it is a traditonal semaphore signaled line.

 

[Horizon22]

It's Stoke City v Derby County this Saturday on the opening day of the Championship season. Let's hope BTP EMR are prepared!

Well the vast majority of the year there is a football game on a Saturday. It's somewhat bread and butter for most operators, with special attention placed on derbies / rivalries. Opening day of the season can be a little different compared to later on in the season as there's more scope for variation but not too much.

 

[Travelmonkey]

is it Stoke at home? well thats gonna be fun getting over to stafford, especially if the lift is still out of order over at Stoke,

 

[chiltern trev]

A bit more context.

Port Vale were promoted from league 2 to league 1 last May.

The fixtures were published on 26 June.

Port Vale were away at Rotherham.

The overcrowding at Derby was fans who had travelled from Rotherham and were changing trains at Derby.



Is it reasonable to expect either EMR or BTP to have anticipated this?

Or contact football clubs and ask how many away fans?

 

[BPN2022]

Stoke v Derby on Saturday so could well be the same issues.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Stoke v Derby on Saturday so could well be the same issues.

I'm on the 9am train so hopefully no issues out. Coming back we'll we shall see.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Makes you wonder whether EMR planners actually know where Port Vale is! Even ITVs veteran commentator Clive Tyldesley once annoyed half the Potteries by saying Stoke-on-Trent was a one-club city during the 2011 League Cup Final.

With Stoke playing Derby tomorrow and the Stockport blockade likely to push extra passengers on to the Crewe - Newark line, I'm glad I'll be travelling in the opposite direction to Derby fans to get to Matlock.

 

[Haywain]

Coming back we'll we shall see.

I reckon you might want to avoid the 18:33 from Stoke to Derby.

 

[TUC]

So for context trying to get home last night went for the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans to the point a small squadron of BTP arrived, anyway between EMR & BTP and the rowdy behaviour of the traveling fans that train was cancelled due to disorder. EMR control wanted to send the next train 2047 as another 2 coach when it came in as a 4 (2x turbostars to split at Derby) to which the BTP officers were not happy basically forcing them (thankfully) to run it as a 4 car train instead. Does make me wonder how much sway they have on the TOCs.

It does beg the question why, if it was possible to run a 4 car and it was known to be a busy evening, it wasn't scheduled in the first place? Some TOCs do seem very unaware of events, and stuck in whatever their day to day arrangements are.

 

[Towers]

It does beg the question why, if it was possible to run a 4 car and it was known to be a busy evening, it wasn't scheduled in the first place? Some TOCs do seem very unaware of events, and stuck in whatever their day to day arrangements are.

But keep in mind that for many TOCs their ‘day to day arrangements’ is all they have - shortages of DMUs in particular might well mean that in some cases there just isn’t anything else available to add to an existing formation, special event or not!

 

[GordonT]

But keep in mind that for many TOCs their ‘day to day arrangements’ is all they have - shortages of DMUs in particular might well mean that in some cases there just isn’t anything else available to add to an existing formation, special event or not!

To an extent it always comes back to the age-old debate of how many idle units and in some cases traincrews can a TOC afford to have hanging up on hooks in its back shop at huge expense to be dusted down and brought out on the odd occasion of a special event whose additional revenue will be a miniscule fraction of the cost of the otherwise avoidable resources.

 

[TUC]

But keep in mind that for many TOCs their ‘day to day arrangements’ is all they have - shortages of DMUs in particular might well mean that in some cases there just isn’t anything else available to add to an existing formation, special event or not!

My point was more that on this occasion they were available, but nothing seems to have been done in advance to take advantage of this.

 

[Krokodil]

To an extent it always comes back to the age-old debate of how many idle units and in some cases traincrews can a TOC afford to have hanging up on hooks in its back shop at huge expense to be dusted down and brought out on the odd occasion of a special event whose additional revenue will be a miniscule fraction of the cost of the otherwise avoidable resources.

At the same time many TOCs are under-resourced for their routine operations, not just special events. Traincrew can be more flexible with the right incentives, but units are a finite resource.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I reckon you might want to avoid the 18:33 from Stoke to Derby.

I'll bear that in mind. I'm over in Stafford so will likely be a bit later coming back.

 

[transportphoto]

My point was more that on this occasion they were available, but nothing seems to have been done in advance to take advantage of this.

I’ve not read the full context but the saying “robbing Peter to pay Paul” springs to mind. Strengthening one will often mean stealing from another (even if not immediate, can cause a fleet imbalance the next day).

 

[Travelmonkey]

Kinda wish I had the cops today 2x trains I could not board despite pre booking on the app,

 

[357]

Kinda wish I had the cops today 2x trains I could not board despite pre booking on the app,

The police don't put on extra carriages.

 

[GordonT]

The police don't put on extra carriages.

And often don't do irony very much either?

 

[Krokodil]

And often don't do irony very much either?

Handcuffs are usually steely these days

 

[Travelmonkey]

The police don't put on extra carriages.

Was being a bit facetious, they may not directly but they definitely influenced EMR last week too

 

[Tetchytyke]

For all the criticism of the BTP, the simple fact is that when frustrations overrun it is the BTP who have to go in and sort it out. It's not the TOC staff who end up having to control the angry mob; in my experience, they all do a disappearing act (and not that I particularly blame them for that).

 

[Travelmonkey]

For all the criticism of the BTP, the simple fact is that when frustrations overrun it is the BTP who have to go in and sort it out. It's not the TOC staff who end up having to control the angry mob; in my experience, they all do a disappearing act (and not that I particularly blame them for that).

Like all police forces they're spread far too thinly,

 

[43066]

For all the criticism of the BTP, the simple fact is that when frustrations overrun it is the BTP who have to go in and sort it out. It's not the TOC staff who end up having to control the angry mob; in my experience, they all do a disappearing act (and not that I particularly blame them for that).

All too often the staff are left to deal with things themselves because BTP aren’t available to attend promptly. As for doing a disappearing act, in some circumstances can be the right thing to do, rather than end up being assaulted. The problem fundamentally is lack of resource, and a lack of a visible deterrent.

I’m not a fan of a police state but, with the way things are going in the UK, perhaps the more visible police and security presence in other European countries has something to recommend it. I remember being on RENFE service in north west Spain last year, and the (I assume) guard had an enormous truncheon on his belt, and very much looked like someone who wasn’t to be messed with.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

In the event trains were cancelled all day between Crewe and Stoke thanks to a line side fire at Kidsgrove.

Trains just did short Newark - Stoke workings and a temporary easement allowed Crewe - Derby travel via Tamworth for those whose tickets didn't permit this route.

Factoring in the Stockport blockade, fans of Stoke or Derby living in the NW would have faced serious difficulties getting to Stoke.

 

[MatthewHutton]

To an extent it always comes back to the age-old debate of how many idle units and in some cases traincrews can a TOC afford to have hanging up on hooks in its back shop at huge expense to be dusted down and brought out on the odd occasion of a special event whose additional revenue will be a miniscule fraction of the cost of the otherwise avoidable resources.

Presumably they have extra units for the Monday to Friday peak services that they can use to strengthen weekend services as appropriate for a special event.

Chiltern manage with Wembley.

 

[6Gman]

Presumably they have extra units for the Monday to Friday peak services that they can use to strengthen weekend services as appropriate for a special event.

Chiltern manage with Wembley.

Outside London and the South East I suspect there's not a big difference between Monday-Friday and Saturday commitments (certainly wasn't in my Regional Railways days). Sundays a bit more spare capacity.

 

[Haywain]

Presumably they have extra units for the Monday to Friday peak services that they can use to strengthen weekend services as appropriate for a special event.

Chiltern manage with Wembley.

There may be an element of that but EMR covers a wide area with a lot of special events every week.

 

[MatthewHutton]

There may be an element of that but EMR covers a wide area with a lot of special events every week.

Sounds like they should have more spare trains then so they can beef up the required services and that that stock would get reasonable usage!

 

[Simon75]

Once the legal proceedings against the driver have concluded, I imagine that there is going to be an inquiry into the events in Liverpool last Spring Bank Holiday Monday and how the various agencies involved dealt with it. One of the issues needing to be raised is the crowd control at Lime Street that evening, which from reports here should have been managed better.

This inquiry would give the opportunity for crowd management to be looked at and I think it should be in public. If it is not, perhaps crowd control at railway stations is a topic the House of Commons Transport Committee would like to address in an evidence session with event organisers, Network Rail, BTP, GBR and ATOC.

I know when the Premier League fixtures are released, requests from clubs and the territorial police forces for home fixtures not to be on certain dates are taken into consideration. For example, Aston Villas first game of the 22/23 PL season was away, owing to the Commonwealth Games Athletics being in Birmingham at the Alexander Stadium, just a mile from Villa Park. I don’t know if there are similar considerations for League 2 clubs with railway engineering works and the potential for disorder. Ultimately though there is only a finite amount of rolling stock and resource. The North Staffs would ideally be four car all the time, but who’d then lose out in terms of capacity?

Which is probably why Blackpool played away on Saturday (9th August), as it was the airshow weekend