BTP demanding extra coaches

[Stigy]

So for context trying to get home last night went for the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans to the point a small squadron of BTP arrived, anyway between EMR & BTP and the rowdy behaviour of the traveling fans that train was cancelled due to disorder. EMR control wanted to send the next train 2047 as another 2 coach when it came in as a 4 (2x turbostars to split at Derby) to which the BTP officers were not happy basically forcing them (thankfully) to run it as a 4 car train instead. Does make me wonder how much sway they have on the TOCs.

BPT can and often do advise TOCs, but they have no authority over the running of the railway at all. Some officers do have other ideas, but that’s another matter.

 

[Class 170101]

What possibly hasn't helped here is that the route Sheffield to Manchester was a diversion via Reddish North rather than the usual route via Stockport, so yes it released units for EMR not running between Sheffield and Liverpool but that may well have pushed Port Vale fans to go via Derby to get towards Stoke and Crewe as the quickest journey rather than via Manchester and hence the overcrowding.

 

[Peter0124]

Had this some years ago with another company's control at Manchester, after two concerts. Platform was neatly stacked, 15 deep, 700 passengers. Last train of the night. The traincrew rung control to tell them that a three car unit just wouldn't do. Control said, "no, it's booked a 3-car and that's what they'll get. If we leave people, it's tough."

This just screams operational convenience over getting people travelling.

 

[KevinBrum12]

This just screams operational convenience over getting people travelling.

Once the legal proceedings against the driver have concluded, I imagine that there is going to be an inquiry into the events in Liverpool last Spring Bank Holiday Monday and how the various agencies involved dealt with it. One of the issues needing to be raised is the crowd control at Lime Street that evening, which from reports here should have been managed better.

This inquiry would give the opportunity for crowd management to be looked at and I think it should be in public. If it is not, perhaps crowd control at railway stations is a topic the House of Commons Transport Committee would like to address in an evidence session with event organisers, Network Rail, BTP, GBR and ATOC.

I know when the Premier League fixtures are released, requests from clubs and the territorial police forces for home fixtures not to be on certain dates are taken into consideration. For example, Aston Villas first game of the 22/23 PL season was away, owing to the Commonwealth Games Athletics being in Birmingham at the Alexander Stadium, just a mile from Villa Park. I don’t know if there are similar considerations for League 2 clubs with railway engineering works and the potential for disorder. Ultimately though there is only a finite amount of rolling stock and resource. The North Staffs would ideally be four car all the time, but who’d then lose out in terms of capacity?

 

[Horizon22]

This just screams operational convenience over getting people travelling.

Yes and no. It might also be incredibly time-consuming - if not impossible - to shift drivers and resources around to try and strengthen units, especially at that time of day. That said a complete dismissal is probably not how to handle it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

I don’t know if there are similar considerations for League 2 clubs with railway engineering works and the potential for disorder. Ultimately though there is only a finite amount of rolling stock and resource. The North Staffs would ideally be four car all the time, but who’d then lose out in terms of capacity?

If this was taken into account, it wouldn't be possible to deliver engineering works pretty much anywhere on the weekend!

 

[08221]

a few years ago the Derby - Crewe service was eith er a 2 or 1 car, i was on i think a 4 or 5 pm from Derby, and it was a 1 car service. It was reasonably full leaving Derby with holiday makers plus suitcases, then we arrived at Uttoxeter after the races had finished, those wanting to get on could have filled a 4car, but we only had 1, now that was rammed, they were standing in the aisle, but we left loads on the platform. Surly at control they would have known about the usual race traffic...

Often when there are races on at Uttoxeter these days (and indeed for this weekends Rail 200 event at Derby), EMR do run 4 or 5 coach trains on the North Staffs line using combinations of 2/3 car class 170s, 2 car class 158s or 5 car class 222s.

 

[dk1]

Often when there are races on at Uttoxeter these days (and indeed for this weekends Rail 200 event at Derby), EMR do run 4 or 5 coach trains on the North Staffs line using combinations of 2/3 car class 170s, 2 car class 158s or 5 car class 222s.

Yes EMR have really improved the offering for Uttoxeter Races these days. I know they went the extra mile for the Midlands Grand National with strengthening and relief trains. The recent Ladies Day saw record crowds passing through the course gates.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I guess the scenario of a 4 car turning up and the intention is to split it and continue as 2 car is the key thing here. BTP may have advised that continuing with that plan isn't going to be popular, could cause a riot etc

 

[Deepgreen]

As an overview, this and many similar incidents just show that the railway today has almost no ability to operate extra capacity (either as longer trains or extras) to cope with situations like this. Even with months of notice, there just isn't the stock lying around these days to cater for abnormal travel patterns like this. The fact that 'normal' passengers have to endure the influx of mobs of this sort onto already-crowded trains is dire. Of course, an efficient railway can't afford the level of spare stock that prevailed in, say, the 1970s, but perhaps there is a middle ground that we are not anywhere near at present (which would also allow better coverage for failures in normal service conditions). Again, a proper national rolling stock strategy would be lovely...

 

[fisher2511]

Surely there were plenty of spare locos at Derby that could have been hooked up to some Mk1 coaches to clear the backlog.

 

[Class 170101]

Surely there were plenty of spare locos at Derby that could have been hooked up to some Mk1 coaches to clear the backlog.

Not this weekend. Would have been busy occupying those at Greatest Gathering

 

[Travelmonkey]

From experience, if this was BTP initiated, I would expect there to have been a conversation at front line management level or passed via controls. If that conversation resulted in a train going forward with additional vehicles I would suspect that it has been suggested that doing otherwise would lead to an unsafe situation. When any police force suggests your actions might lead to that, it’s wise to listen and react.

Pure speculation here, but my experience of similar situations.

It was higher than the officers on the ground leasing with control. Just seemed to sort quickly after the cop on the grounds message got passed on. Unfortunately football fans are a ever present headache of weekend travel. Hopefully GBR remember what a football special is.

 

[fisher2511]

Not this weekend. Would have been busy occupying those at Greatest Gathering

It was one of the locos at Derby I thought they could use. I’m sure the Gathering could spare one.

 

[Travelmonkey]

They'd strengthened lots of diagrams over the weekend for lots of reasons taking advantage of not running to Liverpool but you can't strengthen everything.

It would appear the traincrew on the 1947 service objected to the conduct of their passengers and refused to lock themselves into a train with them so the service was cancelled.

The second train was initially running as booked as a 2 car dropping off the 2nd set at Derby for overnight stabling but following feedback from the front line staff (which probably included BTP) control arranged for it to run through as 4 cars with the second set running back empty to Derby afterwards - stabling extra trains on someone else's depot at Crewe isn't always easy to sort out at short notice.

Behaviour yesterday was rubbish everywhere with large numbers of disorder related delays. Presumably start of the football season combined with OK weather and payday.

Definitely not my best rail experience. I do feel for the on ground staff. I know all parties were stressed with the situation I know one officer gave all passengers a threat that if any more misbehaving they would just terminate and kick everyone out wherever that may be. 2 coaches was definitely not safe for all intending to travel yesterday. I'm glad (albeit likely negligible) the BTP was able to broker a solution with officers also traveling on the train too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

Often when there are races on at Uttoxeter these days (and indeed for this weekends Rail 200 event at Derby), EMR do run 4 or 5 coach trains on the North Staffs line using combinations of 2/3 car class 170s, 2 car class 158s or 5 car class 222s.

Tbh I'd love it if we had more 222s on the line. Certainly would have helped a bit more. although then my fiend and I would be a issue for the guard as 2 wheelchair users. Yesterday the North Staffs was just a farce. We couldn't even get our train into Derby but luckily EMR booked us taxis and then this drama on the way home made me wonder how much imput BTP can sway.

 

[43066]

Definitely not my best rail experience. I do feel for the on ground staff. I know all parties were stressed with the situation I know one officer gave all passengers a threat that if any more misbehaving they would just terminate and kick everyone out wherever that may be. 2 coaches was definitely not safe for all intending to travel yesterday. I'm glad (albeit likely negligible) the BTP was able to broker a solution with officers also traveling on the train too.

It really would be better if BTP could have more of a presence on football trains especially, but of course lack of resource makes this difficult.

 

[Haywain]

Hopefully GBR remember what a football special is.

Without large amounts of spare rolling stock and additional staff that won't be happening. And you have to remember that football specials usually worked because they were both direct and cheap, and railtours now prove that the second of those is unlikely to happen even if the barriers above were to be overcome.

 

[Donny85]

.They are funded by and work for the TOCs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2025 ==

That’s a bit of a stretch. BTP may coordinate with TOCs, but they’re an independent police force with a legal duty to protect public safety — not to serve any operator’s interests. Their funding comes from the rail industry as a whole, but that doesn’t mean they take orders from TOCs. When safety’s at risk, like with overcrowded trains and disorder, their input rightly carries weight — and TOCs usually act on it for good reason.

Always interesting how BTP’s role seems to strike a nerve with some, even when they’re just doing their job.

 

[357]

When safety’s at risk, like with overcrowded trains and disorder, their input rightly carries weight — and TOCs usually act on it for good reason.

Because of course the TOC staff on the ground aren't concerned about safety?

Their funding comes from the rail industry as a whole, but that doesn’t mean they take orders from TOCs

I've seen how while working in the same location, after my TOCs funding to BTP increased the average response time went from 2+ hours to 20 minutes. Before the funding change I literally used to tell them on the phone that if they aren't asking the Met to respond then don't bother. BTP would arrive hours later to take statements once the local police had dealt with the actual issue.

Always interesting how BTP’s role seems to strike a nerve with some, even when they’re just doing their job.

My issue is that in my experience they generally don't do it very well, and then have an attitude problem when called out on it.

 

[43066]

Because of course the TOC staff on the ground aren't concerned about safety?

Always interesting how BTP’s role seems to strike a nerve with some, even when they’re just doing their job.

The trouble is when you speak to staff they many have had negative experiences - I know @357 certainly has.

Mine was officers running onto an active line in the Thameslink core when I was on the phone to the signaller trying to arrange a line block and electrical switch off. A trespasser had run into the tracks, I had identified myself as a rail staff member and offered to call the signaller to make the situation safe - the cops simply ran into the tracks anyway when I was half way through the phone call.

That’s not to say there aren’t many excellent BTP offices, or that many of the issues (especially response times) aren’t down to lack of funding/resource, but there are rather too many bad experiences to discount.

 

[Falcon1200]

It might also be incredibly time-consuming - if not impossible - to shift drivers and resources around to try and strengthen units, especially at that time of day.

Indeed, and possibly with other consequences, such as a unit booked exam or fuelling finishing miles away from its depot resulting in an entire diagram being uncovered the next day.

That said a complete dismissal is probably not how to handle it.

True, if that was actually what was said!

 

[Travelmonkey]

In a highly volatile situation things can go pear shaped quickly i know we had 2 different BTP cops concerned about our wellbeing (me and my friend both wheelchair users) and was sat next to one of the officers as he was radioing through to control to explain that a 2 car would not work with the amount of passengers.

I too have annoyances with the BTP but it seems like they are struggling with the same pressures as the territorial forces, most officers I've delt with have been polite and courteous although ended in no further action (broken cameras & confused tourist),

Silly thing coming home last night empty 5 coach service. Although north staffs platform lengths don't help as many are short.

 

[DarloRich]

Do Port Vale have that many fans?!

This is Port Vale we’re talking about.

Just under 10000 at Rotherham on Saturday and with it being the first day of the season, PV just promoted, a short journey by train and a nice day for a few pre match refreshments ( even in Rotherham!) I bet they could have taken 2000 +

So for context trying to get home last night went for the EMR 1947 Crewe train absolutely rammed with Port Vale fans to the point a small squadron of BTP arrived, anyway between EMR & BTP and the rowdy behaviour of the traveling fans that train was cancelled due to disorder. EMR control wanted to send the next train 2047 as another 2 coach when it came in as a 4 (2x turbostars to split at Derby) to which the BTP officers were not happy basically forcing them (thankfully) to run it as a 4 car train instead. Does make me wonder how much sway they have on the TOCs.

I don't think think the Police get to make those kind of decisions. I am sure they offered some advice to the TOC staff but it is up to the people running the TOC to decide what goes where. it seems a sensible decision based on the circumstances on the ground.

 

[800001]

In a highly volatile situation things can go pear shaped quickly i know we had 2 different BTP cops concerned about our wellbeing (me and my friend both wheelchair users) and was sat next to one of the officers as he was radioing through to control to explain that a 2 car would not work with the amount of passengers.

I too have annoyances with the BTP but it seems like they are struggling with the same pressures as the territorial forces, most officers I've delt with have been polite and courteous although ended in no further action (broken cameras & confused tourist),

Silly thing coming home last night empty 5 coach service. Although north staffs platform lengths don't help as many are short.

Why was the 5 coach service a silly thing? How busy had the train been during the day. And how many service had it operated where 5 cars was justified?

This thread is about not enough capacity, yet a longer train has been running and now it gets called silky!

 

[08221]

4/5 car trains were running on the North Staffs line yesterday to provide extra capacity for the Rail 200 event at Derby.

The extra seats/space were well used on the services I viewed.

 

[Mikey C]

I once contacted Southeastern, as one of the trains back into London after Charlton home games was regularly a rammed 5 car unit, rather than the usual 8 or 10 car formation for post match trains, and to be fair to them they changed this for future games.

 

[Krokodil]

Of course, an efficient railway can't afford the level of spare stock that prevailed in, say, the 1970s

Back then it was easy and cheap to leave a few rakes of Mk1s in a yard. You could use freight locos (which had gainful employment on weekdays) to haul them. You can't do that with aircon stock in the summer because without ETS you will cook the passengers, and DMUs left in sidings for long periods will be unreliable.

However, it's clear that many TOCs barely have enough capacity for their day-to-day operations, so there is definitely justification for larger fleets which will enable better provision for events as a consequence. Just look at Greater Anglia where replacing 153s with FLIRTs, passenger numbers on those services now far exceed anything the 153s could have managed. CrossCountry is the most egregious example of under-provision, of course.

Last weekend one station up here had a visitor from head office - the special events coordinator. They got to witness first hand a train leaving wedged with passengers left behind - next departure an hour later. It was pointed out that the passengers weren't event passengers (it was before the event kicked out), this was just normal traffic for a weekend. They were rather shocked, frontline staff feeding complaints in doesn‘t have the same impact as senior management seeing things with their own eyes.

 

[realaledrinker]

Well let's hope lessons have been learned at Derby as the next Vale away match is at Burton a week on Saturday!

 

[Haywain]

Well let's hope lessons have been learned at Derby as the next Vale away match is at Burton a week on Saturday!

Well, the Great Gathering won't be on so that will make a difference.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It's Stoke City v Derby County this Saturday on the opening day of the Championship season. Let's hope BTP EMR are prepared!

 

[Travelmonkey]

Why was the 5 coach service a silly thing? How busy had the train been during the day. And how many service had it operated where 5 cars was justified?

This thread is about not enough capacity, yet a longer train has been running and now it gets called silky!

To be fair the North Staffs on a Sunday is just a bit of a mess starts later on although the issue is more short platforms rather than the traction. Although we already have a thread on that elsewhere.