Brighton Mainline 27 December

[JB_B]

Southern seem to be really under pressure following the numerous floods/landslips on top of the engineering blocks.

Now that Ockley is out the only viable route from Brighton to London seems to be via bus Three Bridges->East Grinstead but I can't get consistent info on the onwards service to London.

1. @SouthernRailUK think they're sending (all) four an hour to Victoria
2. @NetworkRailVIC reckon they are getting only two an hour from East Grinstead
3. Live Departure Boards (LDB) is showing (all) four an hour going to London Bridge (and not Victoria)

Does anyone know which of these is correct?

I've heard there are now big queues at Three Bridges / East Grinstead. One odd thing I don't understand: I hear that staff at Three Bridges are encouraging London bound passengers onto the numerous but very slow (according to LDB) buses to Coulsdon - I can't see any evidence of an onward service from there - how does it work?

 

[ushawk]

East Grinstead services are packed. Fast buses are running from Three Bridges to Coulsdon Town which connects with 4tph to London Bridge.

Extra buses are being utilised at Gatwick Airport too.

It is 2 trains from East Grinstead to Victoria and 2 to London Bridge as well.

 

[yorksrob]

I know the naysayers will probably shout me down, but it looks as though we could sure use the Uckfield - Lewes link right now. Will the Government ever realise the resillience benefits of reopening this route and actually get on with it.

 

[ushawk]

I know the naysayers will probably shout me down, but it looks as though we could sure use the Uckfield - Lewes link right now. Will the Government ever realise the resillience benefits of reopening this route and actually get on with it.

For this 1 week, it would be useful - but for the rest of the time - it would be a waste of money - but that's another topic completely.

 

[Bald Rick]

I know the naysayers will probably shout me down, but it looks as though we could sure use the Uckfield - Lewes link right now. Will the Government ever realise the resillience benefits of reopening this route and actually get on with it.

I agree entirely. For today and 2 days next week.

Unfortunately it would probably be closed due to flooding at Barcombe Mills

 

[JB_B]

East Grinstead services are packed. Fast buses are running from Three Bridges to Coulsdon Town which connects with 4tph to London Bridge.

Extra buses are being utilised at Gatwick Airport too.

It is 2 trains from East Grinstead to Victoria and 2 to London Bridge as well.

Ah OK - thanks! I see LDB has finally caught up and now reflects this.

 

[yorksrob]

For this 1 week, it would be useful - but for the rest of the time - it would be a waste of money - but that's another topic completely.

One week this year, one week last year, one week the year before that.

The nature of climate change means that these sort of severe weather events are only going to become more frequent.

As for it being a waste of money the rest of the year - I stand by all my arguments on previous threads on the subject
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree entirely. For today and 2 days next week.

Unfortunately it would probably be closed due to flooding at Barcombe Mills

Maybe. But that‘s still three potential routes instead of two.

 

[ushawk]

One week this year, one week last year, one week the year before that.



The nature of climate change means that these sort of severe weather events are only going to become more frequent.



As for it being a waste of money the rest of the year - I stand by all my arguments on previous threads on the subject
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




Maybe. But that‘s still three potential routes instead of two.

1 week - so for 51 weeks of the year, it would be unused to a certain extent - barring some diversions of course.

The line isn't closed due to severe weather, but engineering works. The timing of the Ockley landslide is bad, but you can't use a rare incident to justify spending millions.

Can the fantasy BML2 plans be kept to another thread ?

 

[yorksrob]

1 week - so for 51 weeks of the year, it would be unused to a certain extent - barring some diversions of course.

The line isn't closed due to severe weather, but engineering works. The timing of the Ockley landslide is bad, but you can't use a rare incident to justify spending millions.

Well, as I mentioned, this isn't the first time in the last few years that the Sussex Coast has been severely inconvenienced by bad weather and it's unlikely to be the last. The fact that one of the routes is closed due to planned engineering works has no bearing on the argument whatsoever - unless you've come up with some way of operating the Brighton mainline without engineering works at all in future.

As for the Uckfield - Lewes route being "unused to a certain extent" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for the rest of the year, this is no more likely to be the case for that route than it is for any of the other inter-urban routes in Sussex. All of the routes in Sussex run through rural areas linking medium sized towns with London and the coastal resorts, just as the through route via Uckfield would, so unless the economy in this part of the Weald is vastly different from the rest of Sussex (which I doubt) then there is no reason to believe that this line would be underused any more than the existing lines.

Can the fantasy BML2 plans be kept to another thread ?

Sorry, but both of the viable routes between London and the Sussex Coast are currently blocked. That makes the Uckfield - Lewes reopening highly topical, however much that might not fit with your world view.

As it happens, I prefer a more measured approach of filling in missing links rather than full blown projects such as BML2. However, the only reason such projects have to be exaggerated in this way is because of the discredited cost-benefit analysis, which even the Secretary of State for Transport has admitted is not fit for purpose.

 

[Antman]

For this 1 week, it would be useful - but for the rest of the time - it would be a waste of money - but that's another topic completely.

A waste of money? I couldn't disagree more but as you say that's another topic.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I agree entirely. For today and 2 days next week.

Unfortunately it would probably be closed due to flooding at Barcombe Mills

Or Uckfield or even Crowborough Tunnel....

However, it doesn't help passengers from Gatwick, going to London.

 

[ushawk]

Well, as I mentioned, this isn't the first time in the last few years that the Sussex Coast has been severely inconvenienced by bad weather and it's unlikely to be the last. The fact that one of the routes is closed due to planned engineering works has no bearing on the argument whatsoever - unless you've come up with some way of operating the Brighton mainline without engineering works at all in future.

Of course not, but is it worth spending millions on a line which you hope might get used in the future should the mainline gets closed ? It may as well be better to upgrade the Horsham - Dorking line and build the Arundel curve, would be much cheaper and most of the infrastructure is already there.

As the line is 4 tracked North of Balcombe Tunnel Jct, it is possible for engineering works to happen whilst a normal service is maintained on the other lines. It is very rare for an entire block to be taken on all lines for engineering works.

As for the Uckfield - Lewes route being "unused to a certain extent" (whatever that's supposed to mean) for the rest of the year, this is no more likely to be the case for that route than it is for any of the other inter-urban routes in Sussex. All of the routes in Sussex run through rural areas linking medium sized towns with London and the coastal resorts, just as the through route via Uckfield would, so unless the economy in this part of the Weald is vastly different from the rest of Sussex (which I doubt) then there is no reason to believe that this line would be underused any more than the existing lines.

The line would be unused except a 1tph service extended from Uckfield to Lewes, where the service would have to terminate unless you substantially remodel Lewes. The Weald area's economy is massively different to other parts of Sussex too, I highly doubt that it is as big as Brighton, Crawley, Eastbourne or Hastings.

Sorry, but both of the viable routes between London and the Sussex Coast are currently blocked. That makes the Uckfield - Lewes reopening highly topical, however much that might not fit with your world view.

Theres plenty of other subjects linked to this thread, why dont we bring all those up too ? You are attempting to hijack this thread about the plans for travel today due to the closure and use it for your own campaign to justify spending millions on a fantasy line that probably wont ever happen, even if it did - it wouldnt for an incredibly long time due to their being other cost-effective solutions (IE Arundel Chord).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or Uckfield or even Crowborough Tunnel....

However, it doesn't help passengers from Gatwick, going to London.

Exactly, the main flow ultimately is from Gatwick up to London, unfortunately today you have pax from the Arun Valley line trying to use buses from Three Bridges due to the Horsham-Dorking line being shut.

 

[JB_B]

The line isn't closed due to severe weather

Redhill and Quarry Routes were both blocked by weather on Tuesday 24th

(Were they reopened before the Engineering blockage?)

 

[Chrisgr31]

Opening the Lewes-Uckfield line might help with the current closures and indeed a few other occasions over the last couple of years when the Brighton Mainline has been shut for a number of reasons.

However it won't solve the pinchpoint at East Croydon which has caused total chaos when it has been blocked recently. Cracking East Croydon would seem to be a better bet!

Mind you it does raise the question of why Southern aren't running buses from Lewes or Brighton to Uckfield and then the diesels into London Bridge?

Incidentially it might be a better option for those trying to get from Brighton to London? 29 bus Brighton to Uckfield, then train to London, however connections might be crap as its an hourly service.

 

[OxtedL]

Redhill and Quarry Routes were both blocked by weather on Tuesday 24th

(Were they reopened before the Engineering blockage?)

And at the same time the Uckfield line closed due to problems in Crowborough, whilst the East Grinstead line apparently had a fuzzy moment when a tree came down at Lingfield.

In case anyone on this thread was trying to put this forward - ahem - the Uckfield line is stunningly weak backup plan in times of flooding. The Uck valley is one of the more vulnerable ones locally (although the Medway seems to have taken the brunt this time round).

 

[Stats]

Getting this thread back on topic Southern are going to need to find a solution if the Dorking line remains closed into next week. 2tph from East Grinstead is not going to cope when more commuters return to work on Monday. I don't know what that solution could be. With a need for a stopping service from both Uckfield and East Grinstead I don't suppose there is any more capacity for more express services through Oxted.


Returning to today, I note Southern are now running a Gatwick to Three Bridges shuttle using the paths of the cancelled Victoria via Horsham service but why not extend the Arun Valley service that is terminating at 3 bridges?

 

[ushawk]

Redhill and Quarry Routes were both blocked by weather on Tuesday 24th

(Were they reopened before the Engineering blockage?)

No, both routes remained closed on Xmas Eve - as did the Uckfield line for most of the day.

Getting this thread back on topic Southern are going to need to find a solution if the Dorking line remains closed into next week. 2tph from East Grinstead is not going to cope when more commuters return to work on Monday. I don't know what that solution could be. With a need for a stopping service from both Uckfield and East Grinstead I don't suppose there is any more capacity for more express services through Oxted.

Returning to today, I note Southern are now running a Gatwick to Three Bridges shuttle using the paths of the cancelled Victoria via Horsham service but why not extend the Arun Valley service that is terminating at 3 bridges?

4tph are running from East Grinstead into London and buses will also continue to run to Coulsdon Town to connect with 4tph into London Bridge. The London Bridge - Uckfield service will run alongside the additional services.

The Arun Valley services cannot run into Gatwick due to timetabling. Only 2 lines are open between Three Bridges and Gatwick, 1 SLW for Southern and 1 SLW for FCC, think there may well only be 1 free platform at Gatwick too. Also , there is a 13 minute turnaround for the service at Three Bridges, extending it to Gatwick would require a fast turnaround which wouldnt be possible.

Running a self-contained shuttle is the best option as then you wont be delaying anything else.

 

[Bishopstone]

What formations are the East Grinstead trains today? Please tell me something more than 4-car....

On Monday and Tuesday I need to commute from Seaford to the City. I think I'll set-off really early (maybe the 5am train from Seaford) and try and head back mid-afternoon to avoid the worst of the chaos, particularly if the Dorking route is still down.

 

[OxtedL]

Getting this thread back on topic Southern are going to need to find a solution if the Dorking line remains closed into next week. 2tph from East Grinstead is not going to cope when more commuters return to work on Monday. I don't know what that solution could be. With a need for a stopping service from both Uckfield and East Grinstead I don't suppose there is any more capacity for more express services through Oxted.

The Dorking line might well be open on Monday, we'll have to see.

Looking at the timings, I agree that there doesn't look to be much room for more express trains from East Grinstead. This diagram I shoved together shows the situation northbound from East Grinstead to South Croydon through Hurst Green, with current expresses in red, stoppers in green and Uckfields in blue. Signalling headways south of Hurst Green are probably a limiting factor here - I think they are something like 8 minutes?

If it came to it there would be room for something on the offside of the hour to Uckfield services, but then of course there are issues with finding additional crew who sign East Grinstead.

 

[ushawk]

What formations are the East Grinstead trains today? Please tell me something more than 4-car....

On Monday and Tuesday I need to commute from Seaford to the City. I think I'll set-off really early (maybe the 5am train from Seaford) and try and head back mid-afternoon to avoid the worst of the chaos, particularly if the Dorking route is still down.

8-car certainly have been running, would have thought some 10 or 12 cars have popped up though.

Southern have posted on their website that the line via Ockley will remain closed tomorrow, but from tomorrow a service will operate from Victoria - Dorking with a bus between Dorking and Three Bridges to connect with the Gatwick shuttles - adding an extra route to get to Gatwick.

 

[Bishopstone]

8-car certainly have been running, would have thought some 10 or 12 cars have popped up though.

Southern have posted on their website that the line via Ockley will remain closed tomorrow, but from tomorrow a service will operate from Victoria - Dorking with a bus between Dorking and Three Bridges to connect with the Gatwick shuttles - adding an extra route to get to Gatwick.

Good stuff. Hopefully all 10 and 12 car formations next week, given more folk will return to work.

This bit (from the website) is rather ominous, though:

'The improvements works are going well, however the recent bad weather has caused some delay. Every effort is being made to catch up and Network Rail is monitoring the situation on a daily basis. We will keep you informed as work progresses.'

Decoded: Don't expect the BML to re-open until January 3rd or beyond.

 

[radamfi]

What formations are the East Grinstead trains today? Please tell me something more than 4-car....

On Monday and Tuesday I need to commute from Seaford to the City. I think I'll set-off really early (maybe the 5am train from Seaford) and try and head back mid-afternoon to avoid the worst of the chaos, particularly if the Dorking route is still down.

The East Grinstead trains seems to be either 10 or 12 coach 377s. I tested both the East Grinstead and Coulsdon Town routes today and I think I would recommend the Coulsdon route on balance. Whilst East Grinstead is reasonably well organised, there are simply too many people there. BTP in attendance is never a good sign. I can understand that Southern wouldn't want to publicly recommend the Coulsdon route as there is less capacity for replacement buses.

I notice the Southern site is now talking about replacement buses between Dorking and Three Bridges for Saturday. That's quite a long bus ride.

 

[ushawk]

Good stuff. Hopefully all 10 and 12 car formations next week, given more folk will return to work.

This bit (from the website) is rather ominous, though:

'The improvements works are going well, however the recent bad weather has caused some delay. Every effort is being made to catch up and Network Rail is monitoring the situation on a daily basis. We will keep you informed as work progresses.'

Decoded: Don't expect the BML to re-open until January 3rd or beyond.

Of course !!

The East Grinstead trains seems to be either 10 or 12 coach 377s. I tested both the East Grinstead and Coulsdon Town routes today and I think I would recommend the Coulsdon route on balance. Whilst East Grinstead is reasonably well organised, there are simply too many people there. BTP in attendance is never a good sign. I can understand that Southern wouldn't want to publicly recommend the Coulsdon route as there is less capacity for replacement buses.

I notice the Southern site is now talking about replacement buses between Dorking and Three Bridges for Saturday. That's quite a long bus ride.

Routes will be busier as the diverted services are of course not running.

Dorking - Three Bridges should take around 45 minutes, a bit longer than other routes, but might be less busy.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course not, but is it worth spending millions on a line which you hope might get used in the future should the mainline gets closed ? It may as well be better to upgrade the Horsham - Dorking line and build the Arundel curve, would be much cheaper and most of the infrastructure is already there.

If you're spending millions, you may as well serve new traffic flows. What's the point of spending millions on something that would only be a diversionary route. For this reason, it is the Arundel curve which, whilst it may have some merit, is in fantasy land. No one will spend millions on a curve purely for diversions.

As the line is 4 tracked North of Balcombe Tunnel Jct, it is possible for engineering works to happen whilst a normal service is maintained on the other lines. It is very rare for an entire block to be taken on all lines for engineering works.

Some of the time - yes. But as we know from past experience, it does happen, although you are correct that it is possibly not enough times to justify the Arundel Curve - for reasons outlined above.

The line would be unused except a 1tph service extended from Uckfield to Lewes, where the service would have to terminate unless you substantially remodel Lewes. The Weald area's economy is massively different to other parts of Sussex too, I highly doubt that it is as big as Brighton, Crawley, Eastbourne or Hastings.

No, it's not massively different from the rest of West Sussex. Brighton and Eastbourne are on the coast, so from the point of view of discussing the interior of Sussex, they are not relevant, except as terminus points (which they are for the existing routes).

Settlements such as Dorking, Balcombe, Haywards Heath etc are more relevant to this discussion (although I will give you Crawley). There is no reason why Oxted, Crowborough and Uckfield (and even Tunbridge Wells) could not support traffic to the coast in the same way as these other settlements.

Theres plenty of other subjects linked to this thread, why dont we bring all those up too ? You are attempting to hijack this thread about the plans for travel today due to the closure and use it for your own campaign to justify spending millions on a fantasy line that probably wont ever happen, even if it did - it wouldnt for an incredibly long time due to their being other cost-effective solutions (IE Arundel Chord).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why not. We already have a thread entitled "Weather related disruption - Christmas 2013" with a rather dry account of disruption taking place as it happens. Why not use this column to look a little more deeply into those particular problems facing Sussex. I don't see you refraining from entering into the wider discussion either.

As mentioned previously, the Arundel chord isn't going to happen because it doesn't provide any additional connectivity benefit.

Exactly, the main flow ultimately is from Gatwick up to London, unfortunately today you have pax from the Arun Valley line trying to use buses from Three Bridges due to the Horsham-Dorking line being shut.

[/QUOTE]

I think the BML is a little more than a Gatwick to London route with a few extra towns tacked on. I suspect the number of people using the line to travel to and from the Coast is rather more than those using it as an airport shuttle.

 

[Chrisgr31]

On Monday and Tuesday I need to commute from Seaford to the City. I think I'll set-off really early (maybe the 5am train from Seaford) and try and head back mid-afternoon to avoid the worst of the chaos, particularly if the Dorking route is still down.

If you have a car drive to Uckfield or Crowborough and train from there, less choice of trains admittedly but probably a better option than a bus in the middle.

 

[ushawk]

If you're spending millions, you may as well serve new traffic flows. What's the point of spending millions on something that would only be a diversionary route. For this reason, it is the Arundel curve which, whilst it may have some merit, is in fantasy land. No one will spend millions on a curve purely for diversions.

Its very much Pot Kettle Black there !! No one will spend millions on a line for diversions as that is really the only merit in Uckfield - Lewes. It wouldnt only be a diversion route, there could be a new Brighton - Horsham service - linking 2 of the major towns in West Sussex in which there is a large flow. There is also scope for an extra direct London service via Sutton avoiding the Croydon bottleneck, though it does of course avoid Gatwick which is a major station in the South.

Some of the time - yes. But as we know from past experience, it does happen, although you are correct that it is possibly not enough times to justify the Arundel Curve - for reasons outlined above.

But it also doesnt justify Uckfield - Lewes. The only real issue on the line is Copyhold Jct (North of Haywards Heath) - Balcombe Tunnel Jct, which the only way round is via Horsham. If Haywards Heath - Brighton is closed - a diversion via Lewes can happen.

No, it's not massively different from the rest of West Sussex. Brighton and Eastbourne are on the coast, so from the point of view of discussing the interior of Sussex, they are not relevant, except as terminus points (which they are for the existing routes).

Settlements such as Dorking, Balcombe, Haywards Heath etc are more relevant to this discussion (although I will give you Crawley). There is no reason why Oxted, Crowborough and Uckfield (and even Tunbridge Wells) could not support traffic to the coast in the same way as these other settlements.

The only economy Balcombe has is the Quadrilla site and its associated protesters !! Dorking and Haywards Heath are well-sized commuter towns. Im not sure there is much a flow from Oxted to Brighton - even then it may well be quicker via East Croydon - using a non-stop service to Brighton of course. Crowborough and Uckfield are currently served by the 29 bus to/from Brighton, but judging by the amount of people on the buses, they are only busy at certain times on Saturdays, school holidays and peak times - all other times they are under half full and only get busy at Lewes, this shows there isnt a big enough flow to justify or pay for Uckfield - Lewes. I regularly go to Uckfield for work and see the 29 bus.

Why not. We already have a thread entitled "Weather related disruption - Christmas 2013" with a rather dry account of disruption taking place as it happens. Why not use this column to look a little more deeply into those particular problems facing Sussex. I don't see you refraining from entering into the wider discussion either.

But this is a more detailed topic about the Brighton Mainline and the revised travel due to the works at Sloats Nest and briefly the Ockley landslide due to the direct London - Horsham - Gatwick services being cancelled.

As mentioned previously, the Arundel chord isn't going to happen because it doesn't provide any additional connectivity benefit.

It provides, if anything, a bigger business case than Uckfield - Lewes !! The scope to connect a few of the largest towns (Brighton, Hove, Worthing and Horsham) in Sussex is bigger than a service via small villages and towns in Sussex.

I think the BML is a little more than a Gatwick to London route with a few extra towns tacked on. I suspect the number of people using the line to travel to and from the Coast is rather more than those using it as an airport shuttle.

I wouldnt say Brighton is a small town tacked on to the London - Gatwick route !! Brighton is one of the biggest destinations in the South of England !! Gatwick is one of the major destinations on the line, without a doubt.

 

[Bishopstone]

If you have a car drive to Uckfield or Crowborough and train from there, less choice of trains admittedly but probably a better option than a bus in the middle.

That thought crossed my mind: so long as the Uckfield line is behaving itself, which it often doesn't.

 

[OxtedL]

Whilst Lewes-Uckfield would have been a nice to have, in any form we agree we'd likely see it (given as I think the people posting here aren't quite the sort to gargle BML2 to the anyone who will listen at the first sign of any disruption on the Gatwick line) it'd only be able to handle 2 trains an hour on the single track sections and more than possibly wouldn't be electrified, making it extremely difficult to provide enough capacity to support Brighton-London traffic.

No idea whether bussing everyone to East Grinstead is doing much better though, as even with double that number of trains you've suddenly got Gatwick, everything else north of Haywards Heath and west of Worthing trying to squeeze on too.

 

[sarahj]

The problem I found today is the more options there are from Three Bridges the more passengers seem to get confused, asking which is the best. If there is another link to Dorking from tomorrow!!!!!.

Bishopstone, a few regs from your line are palnning to drive to East Grinstead. However, I have been warning them that parking will be an issue, esp with all the buses floating around. TBH, hand on heart, I'm not going to recomend one over the other. All I can adivse is give lots of time, listen out, keep an eye on the websites, and just go with the flow.

Still fingers crossed it will open by the 2nd.

 

[OxtedL]

That thought crossed my mind: so long as the Uckfield line is behaving itself, which it often doesn't.

Uckfield wasn't behaving itself so well today but I think that might have had a lot to do with ongoing signalling problems north of Croydon.

It's been difficult to work out what's been causing delays as Southern haven't been communicating the different layers of disruption on disruption very clearly with the high workload they have at the moment.