Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?

[Darren R]

Here we disagree. Bradford has now reached such a point of decline, and has lost so much of what were once its prosperous northern suburbs to the Leeds conurbation that it'd best hope now is to be a secondary centre for the 'Greater Leeds' area, in much the same way that Stockport is for Manchester. It's neither far enough away from Leeds or big enough to be able to command its own competitively-sized city centre.

No - I totally agree with you on this point. (In fact, I think I'm about to perform a volte face on the whole thing!) Bradford has passed the point of no return: it needs some really radical thinking to stand any hope of reviving the fortunes of its once proud centre. I think that even if the planned shopping centre was to be built now it would become a white elephant. Before taking shop premises businesses look at the town beyond the new building. What is there in Bradford to attract them there at present?

Knottingley would (obviously) retain its direct service to Leeds via Pontefract. However, passengers for Ilkley or Skipton would be able to take a direct train and avoid Leeds.

I still don't think there is much latent demand for through travel opportunities between Ilkley and Knottingley though!

Bradford-Leeds via Shipley comes in at 18 minutes without a stop at Frizinghall. The fastest services via Pudsey are 21. So there's no delay to running north out of Bradford, plus you increase capacity for a section of line which is best suited to solely stopping trains (entirely urban, steep gradients and low speed limits).

Yes - don't know where I got the idea that journey times would be significantly longer via Shipley! I was so sure I didn't even bother to check! Additionally, entering Leeds from the Airedale Line would give greater operational flexibility at Leeds, with access to the through platforms via the Up Shipley Fast from Armley Junction or the low-numbered platforms via the Up Harrogate without any conflicts.

This isn't about redeveloping Bradford city centre, it's just a project that happens to be relocated there. It's a very beneficial project for the wider regional network, which while it would present opportunities for redevelopment in Bradford isn't solely designed for them.

I think you'll probably have to come up with a better selling-point in Bradford though - echoes of the HS2 argument there ('the greater good' and all that!)

 

[IanD]

I think that even if the planned shopping centre was to be built now it would become a white elephant.

Why? Before the scheme was put on hold lots of big names had signed up for units:

Woolworths, Zavvi, Habitat, Borders, MFI, Threshers, Allders, Modelzone...

 

[edwin_m]

Why? Before the scheme was put on hold lots of big names had signed up for units:

Woolworths, Zavvi, Habitat, Borders, MFI, Threshers, Allders, Modelzone...

That nearly took me in. Where's the sarcasm smiley?

 

[tbtc]

There are a few practical things that could be done - electrification of the Calder Valley line from Leeds to Manchester should mean an increase in train length/ longer services/ no more Pacers.

There's not spare capacity at the approach to Leeds station for any huge increase in services, so Bradford is probably stuck with the current 4/ hour via Pudsey and 2/ hour via Shipley.

Whilst the city needs some investment, I don't see how solving the lack of a direct service from Ilkley to Knottingley is going to make much difference.

Why? Before the scheme was put on hold lots of big names had signed up for units:

Woolworths, Zavvi, Habitat, Borders, MFI, Threshers, Allders, Modelzone...

Bradford is famous for its curries - any truth in the rumour it was going to have a huge branch of Currys in its shopping centre alongside Jessops and KwikSave? They might have had Yorkshire's only branch of Tower Records too, I'd heard.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are a few practical things that could be done - electrification of the Calder Valley line from Leeds to Manchester should mean an increase in train length/ longer services/ no more Pacers.

A matter worthy of an annual thread on RailUK until actual project fruition.

Did you add "no more Pacers" as the bait you knew that I could not resist...

 

[tbtc]

A matter worthy of an annual thread on RailUK until actual project fruition.

Did you add "no more Pacers" as the bait you knew that I could not resist...

Can't recall you having expressed an opinion one way or the other before Paul...

Seriously though, the Calder Valley line is a fairly busy DMU route, with four trains an hour from Leeds to Halifax, four trains an hour through Hebden Bridge and four trains an hour from Rochdale to Manchester - if the clearances in Penine cuttings/ tunnels are okay to electrify then it would make fairly rich pickings for electrification early in CP6 (along with the branch through Brighouse).

Not quite as "blue sky thinking" as some of the ideas on this thread, admittedly.

 

[IanD]

Can't recall you having expressed an opinion one way or the other before Paul...

Seriously though, the Calder Valley line is a fairly busy DMU route, with four trains an hour from Leeds to Halifax, four trains an hour through Hebden Bridge and four trains an hour from Rochdale to Manchester - if the clearances in Penine cuttings/ tunnels are okay to electrify then it would make fairly rich pickings for electrification early in CP6 (along with the branch through Brighouse).

Not quite as "blue sky thinking" as some of the ideas on this thread, admittedly.

"Blue sky" in Calderdale and Bradford. You're thinking of 23rd July 2011

 

[Waverley125]

to be fair, the plans for Westfield aren't actually geared towards competing with Leeds, but to getting the kind of identikit highstreet brands into Bradford that it lacks, but are present in the likes of Wakefield, Halifax and Huddersfield. Westfield's far more about making Bradford a usable city centre for workaday shopping needs rather than making it a Leeds-esque high-end retail destination.

The best (for Leeds) capacity-busting project would be either to a) run some trains through east of the city. Personally I think the wiring of TP will give good opportunities for Huddersfield-Selby and Huddersfield-York stopping services.

The other option would be to expand the number of West-facing bays on the site of the current MSCP, relay additional lines out towards Armley and re-quadruple the A&W. Personally I'm in favour as it would allow the opening and re-opening of a large number of what would now be well-patronised stations at Armley Canal Road, Kirkstall Brewery, Kirkstall Forge, Calverley & Rodley, Apperley Bridge & Idle.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

to be fair, the plans for Westfield aren't actually geared towards competing with Leeds, but to getting the kind of identikit highstreet brands into Bradford that it lacks, but are present in the likes of Wakefield, Halifax and Huddersfield. Westfield's far more about making Bradford a usable city centre for workaday shopping needs rather than making it a Leeds-esque high-end retail destination.

The best (for Leeds) capacity-busting project would be either to a) run some trains through east of the city. Personally I think the wiring of TP will give good opportunities for Huddersfield-Selby and Huddersfield-York stopping services.

With regard to your first paragraph, I imagine those factors played some role in Westfield's decision to cancel/postpone the Bradford development.

As for services running through Leeds, the development of 'East Leeds Parkway' at Micklefield has gone quiet in the last couple of years. Is this considered no longer needed as it predated the Transpennine electrification plan?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The other option would be to expand the number of West-facing bays on the site of the current MSCP, relay additional lines out towards Armley and re-quadruple the A&W. Personally I'm in favour as it would allow the opening and re-opening of a large number of what would now be well-patronised stations at Armley Canal Road, Kirkstall Brewery, Kirkstall Forge, Calverley & Rodley, Apperley Bridge & Idle.

I note that you have omitted the following closed stations:-

Newlay and Horsforth
Rawdon

Would these not be viable ?

 

[IanD]

Apperley Bridge & Idle.

Presume you mean Apperley Bridge and Rawdon. Idle was a station on the Windhill branch (which could have provided a useful Bradford Metro type service had it been retained).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Idle was a station on the Windhill branch (which could have provided a useful Bradford Metro type service had it been retained).

There was a very short lived Idle station on the Leeds and Bradford Railway that was opened in 1847 and closed in 1848.

 

[IanD]

There was a very short lived Idle station on the Leeds and Bradford Railway that was opened in 1847 and closed in 1848.

Well, you live and learn. I lived in and around that area for years and never knew that (my brother even used to live in one of the houses that almost backs on to the site!). Still, given it's location, not much of a candidate for re-opening.

 

[Grumpy]

There are a few practical things that could be done -
SNIP
There's not spare capacity at the approach to Leeds station for any huge increase in services, so Bradford is probably stuck with the current 4/ hour via Pudsey and 2/ hour via Shipley.
SNIP

.

I think one of the points made up thread was that with the cross Bradford link you wouldn't need to run 6 trains/hour to Leeds-giving savings in train service costs and easing capacity constraints in Leeds.

 

[Darren R]

There was a very short lived Idle station on the Leeds and Bradford Railway that was opened in 1847 and closed in 1848.

The station may well have been idle for many years but it lasted a bit longer than that! It closed to passengers in 1931, although the line remained open for freight until 1964. The station building at Shipley still remains intact, beside the junction between the Leeds and Bradford lines at Shipley East Junction (as it's now called.) The line was connected to the MR routes slightly further east near Dockfield Junction, but the venture was very speculative. Such a circuitous route from Bradford to Shipley was never going to attract much passenger traffic.

 

[tbtc]

I think one of the points made up thread was that with the cross Bradford link you wouldn't need to run 6 trains/hour to Leeds-giving savings in train service costs and easing capacity constraints in Leeds.

Cutting the service from Bradford to Leeds (whilst introducing a link from Ikley to Knottingley) seems like the wrong priorities to me.

I think that six trains an hour is about right at the moment - would be nice if they all ran from the same station in Bradford but not worth the millions of pounds that it would cost.

 

[IanD]

The station may well have been idle for many years but it lasted a bit longer than that! It closed to passengers in 1931, although the line remained open for freight until 1964. The station building at Shipley still remains intact, beside the junction between the Leeds and Bradford lines at Shipley East Junction (as it's now called.) The line was connected to the MR routes slightly further east near Dockfield Junction, but the venture was very speculative. Such a circuitous route from Bradford to Shipley was never going to attract much passenger traffic.

That's the Idle I was thinking of. Paul was referring to this one quite a way from Idle - should have been called Thackley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idle_(L&BR)_railway_station It actually saw goods traffic until 1968.

My Grandfather worked in the station at Eccleshill (stop before/after Idle) until he died in 1950. By coincidence my parents later bought their first house overlooking the station in 1963. My mum didn't know her dad had worked 200 yards away until her mum came to visit their new house - my grandfather had 'commuted' from Thornton at the other side of Bradford and had died when my mum was 14. My parents still live there but the station's long gone. We used to play on the old platforms and in the station building as kids (and the dismantled track all the way from Idle to Thornbury was explored thoroughly! It was also a great source of old sleepers for the annual communal bonfire - it used to burn for days!). Think the station was demolished about 1976ish, maybe a bit later.

Not relevant to the topic (I know) but I thought I'd share where my love of railways probably originated

 

[Darren R]

That's the Idle I was thinking of. Paul was referring to this one quite a way from Idle - should have been called Thackley: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idle_(L&BR)_railway_station It actually saw goods traffic until 1968.

Oh yes - that's so obscure I'd completely forgotten there was an Idle station on the Airedale line!

(All these posts about Idle and still no-one's cracked any jokes about the Idle Working Men's Club! Seems the age of Music Hall really is over!)

 

[Waverley125]

No point re-opening Newlay & Horsforth, it'd be only a few hundred yards from the proposed station at Kirkstall Forge.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No point re-opening Newlay & Horsforth, it'd be only a few hundred yards from the proposed station at Kirkstall Forge.

Which of the two would be the better site ?

 

[JohnB57]

Which of the two would be the better site ?

The new Kirkstall Forge location is by far the better of the two Paul. Even without the commercial/leisure development that's planned for the same site, it has much easier access to the A65 for vehicles and pedestrians. This website is worth a look.

 

[Bevan Price]

There are a lot of interesting points & suggestions made here, some feasible, some less so, and many too expensive ever to occur. I agree that Bradford city centre needs improving but am unsure of the best way to achieve this - does it really need more of the shops you find in every other city, or should it try to create something original ?

As regards the railways - in retrospect there have been two unfortunate errors since 1970, both of which moved stations to locations less convenient for the city centre, namely replacing Exchange by Interchange, and the cutback at Forster Square. The bus interchange is now avoided by several local bus route.

I think the Calder Valley line should get high priority at the next phase of electrication, and that it would be a good idea to reinstate the direct line from Bowling to Laisterdyke. I think there needs to be some way of increasing the speed of Bradford - Huddersfield services - currently they are no faster than the bus (is it still the X6 ?) . Also a faster link to the south is desirable - maybe reinstate the Wortley curve and provide some fast, direct services to Wakefield, Doncaster & Kings Cross ? The other alternatives, reinstating the former GNR / LNER routes via either Morley Top or via Dewsbury Central are probably almost impossible, quite apart from the cost.

I don't think there would be sufficient demand for a viable south - north connection across Bradford city centre. In an ideal situation, there would have been a single Bradford station built in the 19th century, but I don't see it ever happening now,

In an ideal, money unlimited situation, after electrification, my suggested services would be:
1. Cross Pennine, Liverpool - Manchester Vic. - Rochdale - Halifax - Leeds - York (1 tph)
2. Cross Pennine, Manchester Airport - Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - York (1 tph)
3. Cross Pennine, Blackpool - Preston - Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley Manchester Road - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - stations to York - semi fast to Newcastle. (1 tph)
4. Leeds - stations via Bradford to Rochdale & Manchester Vic (1 tph)
5. Leeds - stations via Bradford to Huddersfield (1 tph).
6. Leeds - Dewsbury - stations via Hebden Bridge to Manchester Vic (1 tph)
7. Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley Manchester Road - Todmorden - stations to Manchester Vic. (1 tph)
8a. Bradford (Int.) - Wakefield - Doncaster - Peterborough - London Kings Cross.
8b. Bradford (Int) - Wakefield - Sheffield - Derby - Birmingham.
Each initially about 4 per day, but maybe increasing to every 2 hours if traffic develops.

If the Cleckheaton route could be reinstated (very unlikely), I would hope for:
9. Bradford Int - Low Moor - Cleckheaton - Heckmondwike - (new curve) - Dewsbury - Leeds (1 tph)
10. Bradford Int. - Cleckheaton - Heckmondwike - Mirfield - Huddersfield (1 tph)

 

[JohnB57]

I think the Calder Valley line should get high priority at the next phase of electrication, and that it would be a good idea to reinstate the direct line from Bowling to Laisterdyke. I think there needs to be some way of increasing the speed of Bradford - Huddersfield services - currently they are no faster than the bus (is it still the X6 ?) . Also a faster link to the south is desirable - maybe reinstate the Wortley curve and provide some fast, direct services to Wakefield, Doncaster & Kings Cross ? The other alternatives, reinstating the former GNR / LNER routes via either Morley Top or via Dewsbury Central are probably almost impossible, quite apart from the cost.

All of those schemes are beyond impossible and will not happen.

The bus was always faster than the train between Huddersfield and Bradford and I'm not sure how the reinstatement of "Bowling to Laisterdyke", which has been built on, would have a positive effect on that anyway. The line was built to avoid Bradford city centre.

There will never be sufficient business case for direct fast London services avoiding Leeds that would justify reinstating Wortley curve.

The Morley line has been buried by successive road schemes and hardly any sign of the railway remains. It's ancient history.

 

[Bevan Price]

All of those schemes are beyond impossible and will not happen.

The bus was always faster than the train between Huddersfield and Bradford and I'm not sure how the reinstatement of "Bowling to Laisterdyke", which has been built on, would have a positive effect on that anyway. The line was built to avoid Bradford city centre.

There will never be sufficient business case for direct fast London services avoiding Leeds that would justify reinstating Wortley curve.

The Morley line has been buried by successive road schemes and hardly any sign of the railway remains. It's ancient history.

Well - I did say reinstatement via Morley or Dewsbury would be impossible.

However, I think you are wrong if you mean Calder Valley electrification will never occur. Some of us may not be around to see it, but in the long term I think there is a high probability that it will be electrified by 2030/2050.

 

[JohnB57]

Well - I did say reinstatement via Morley or Dewsbury would be impossible.

However, I think you are wrong if you mean Calder Valley electrification will never occur. Some of us may not be around to see it, but in the long term I think there is a high probability that it will be electrified by 2030/2050.

Apologies Bevan - I should have excluded Calder Valley wires from my comment, which I agree should and will eventually happen. I hope - and suspect - sooner rather than later.

 

[AndyHudds]

There are a lot of interesting points & suggestions made here, some feasible, some less so, and many too expensive ever to occur. I agree that Bradford city centre needs improving but am unsure of the best way to achieve this - does it really need more of the shops you find in every other city, or should it try to create something original ?

As regards the railways - in retrospect there have been two unfortunate errors since 1970, both of which moved stations to locations less convenient for the city centre, namely replacing Exchange by Interchange, and the cutback at Forster Square. The bus interchange is now avoided by several local bus route.

I think the Calder Valley line should get high priority at the next phase of electrication, and that it would be a good idea to reinstate the direct line from Bowling to Laisterdyke. I think there needs to be some way of increasing the speed of Bradford - Huddersfield services - currently they are no faster than the bus (is it still the X6 ?) . Also a faster link to the south is desirable - maybe reinstate the Wortley curve and provide some fast, direct services to Wakefield, Doncaster & Kings Cross ? The other alternatives, reinstating the former GNR / LNER routes via either Morley Top or via Dewsbury Central are probably almost impossible, quite apart from the cost.

I don't think there would be sufficient demand for a viable south - north connection across Bradford city centre. In an ideal situation, there would have been a single Bradford station built in the 19th century, but I don't see it ever happening now,

In an ideal, money unlimited situation, after electrification, my suggested services would be:
1. Cross Pennine, Liverpool - Manchester Vic. - Rochdale - Halifax - Leeds - York (1 tph)
2. Cross Pennine, Manchester Airport - Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - York (1 tph)
3. Cross Pennine, Blackpool - Preston - Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley Manchester Road - Hebden Bridge - Halifax - Bradford - Leeds - stations to York - semi fast to Newcastle. (1 tph)
4. Leeds - stations via Bradford to Rochdale & Manchester Vic (1 tph)
5. Leeds - stations via Bradford to Huddersfield (1 tph).
6. Leeds - Dewsbury - stations via Hebden Bridge to Manchester Vic (1 tph)
7. Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley Manchester Road - Todmorden - stations to Manchester Vic. (1 tph)
8a. Bradford (Int.) - Wakefield - Doncaster - Peterborough - London Kings Cross.
8b. Bradford (Int) - Wakefield - Sheffield - Derby - Birmingham.
Each initially about 4 per day, but maybe increasing to every 2 hours if traffic develops.

If the Cleckheaton route could be reinstated (very unlikely), I would hope for:
9. Bradford Int - Low Moor - Cleckheaton - Heckmondwike - (new curve) - Dewsbury - Leeds (1 tph)
10. Bradford Int. - Cleckheaton - Heckmondwike - Mirfield - Huddersfield (1 tph)

This route has big potential for reopening, but nothing seems to be happening in that respect. But what about a station at Liversedge too?

Not sure how you would get a curve in the Dewsbury direction, in the Huddersfield direction,yes, but practically impossible to get one in the Dewsbury direction. If the Horbury curve was reinstated too, Bradford could get services directly into South Yorkshire and the East Midlands.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

7. Blackburn - Accrington - Burnley Manchester Road - Todmorden - stations to Manchester Vic. (1 tph)

Will the path availability mean that 1 tph will be the maximum allowed for this service ?

 

[Welshman]

The bus was always faster than the train between Huddersfield and Bradford

Except, perhaps, for prior to 1948, when the Pickle Bridge Line was used


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickle_Bridge_Line

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Bradford to Huddersfield is indeed always quicker by bus (providing you're on an X6), as the train is held for the best part of 10mins at Halifax, presumably awaiting a path onto the 'true' Calder Valley route through Brighouse.

Going the other way, it's pot-luck in the peaks as buses often get snarled up in queues between Bailiff Bridge and Wyke before they reach the busway.

 

[AndyHudds]

Bradford to Huddersfield is indeed always quicker by bus (providing you're on an X6), as the train is held for the best part of 10mins at Halifax, presumably awaiting a path onto the 'true' Calder Valley route through Brighouse.

Going the other way, it's pot-luck in the peaks as buses often get snarled up in queues between Bailiff Bridge and Wyke before they reach the busway.

There is very little in it, the timetable train service takes 39 minutes, the X6 35 minutes and the X63/363 also takes 39 minutes. So, if they could get rid of the 10 minute lay over at Halifax, it would be quicker than the bus.