Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?

[tbtc]

Significant practical benefits for people in Bradford of having one central station:

1. Knowing which station to go to for the next service to Leeds

Erm...

 

[AndyLandy]

Significant practical benefits for people in Bradford of having one central station:

1. Knowing which station to go to for the next service to Leeds

Erm...

That reminds me of Yorkshire Airlines. http://youtu.be/6VLYpKGVBUg

"Because if it's outside of Yorkshire it's not worth b***dy visiting!"

 

[quantinghome]

Significant practical benefits for people in Bradford of having one central station:

1. Knowing which station to go to for the next service to Leeds

Erm...

Nail on the head there, I think.

I heard it was once so rich there were Pullman trains in the summer from Bradford to Morecambe (a.k.a. Bradford-on-Sea). There were also far more direct trains to London. None of these needed a link between the stations. If it didn't happen when Bradford was in all its pomp it ain't going to happen now.

Off-topic - Bradford could do with looking to the experience of certain areas of East London for regeneration approaches:

Depressed area > low rents > attract artists > bo-ho area > attracts start-ups etc.

Saltaire is also a good example of this.

 

[Bevan Price]

Likewise at Halifax.

When the old goods yard and sidings were removed, there was an ideal opportunity to build a new bus station on the site.

With a ramped access from Church St, the new site could have been at the same level as the platforms, thus allowing the present road bridge to the station[which must add to the maintenance costs] to be removed.

If the island platforms 3 & 4 had been adapted for the new station instead of the original island 1 & 2, and the original frontage cleaned, as now, you could have had an impressive transport interchange at ground level.

Instead, Halifax then had Crossfield Bus Station, subsequently too small and a mile or so away from the railway station, and later the Eureka! Childrens' Museum on the site.

Ah, well.

The problem at Halifax is that the railway is near the foot of a hill, but the main shopping & business areas are near the top of that hill, and the latter are the main destination of most bus passengers. I don't think that many bus companies would extend routes from the town centre to the railway station for what would probably be a fairly small increase in fares revenue, balanced against higher operating costs.

 

[Welshman]

The problem at Halifax is that the railway is near the foot of a hill, but the main shopping & business areas are near the top of that hill, and the latter are the main destination of most bus passengers. I don't think that many bus companies would extend routes from the town centre to the railway station for what would probably be a fairly small increase in fares revenue, balanced against higher operating costs.

I take your point.

On the other hand, the present bus station in the old Woolshops/Winding Road area is sufficiently far away from some of the shops that some outgoing services pick-up at Commercial St and George St, and incoming ones drop-off at Bull Green and Market St.

Similarly, most services [except perhaps to Siddal] could have picked-up and dropped-off in the same areas on their way to and from a bus station/railway station interchange, without substantially increasing the mileage presently incurred.

Still, it's all academic now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Remembering this is all fairly much notional, it would be possible to produce a tram-train scheme which still allowed trains to reach Forster Square and Interchange but only tram-trains to run between one and the other. This wouldn't be a downgrade, rather an upgrade although a more limited one that providing a railway between the two stations.

So a 'Tramway' then? My objections were to the conflict between the lightweight tram-trains you proposed and the heavy rail services that you proposed they'd run alongside. I'd be in full support of a pure tramway solution to Bradford's 'predicament', perhaps running from a P+R site near Odsal, down the busway to Interchange then across the city centre to Forster Square and on to say Greengates, or Lister Park/Shipley via Valley Parade.

If only it had been possible/desirable/affordable enough to convert the railway goods warehouse into a magnificent bus station to make a truly integrated transport hub in Huddersfield.

Likewise at Halifax.

When the old goods yard and sidings were removed, there was an ideal opportunity to build a new bus station on the site.

With a ramped access from Church St, the new site could have been at the same level as the platforms, thus allowing the present road bridge to the station[which must add to the maintenance costs] to be removed.

If the island platforms 3 & 4 had been adapted for the new station instead of the original island 1 & 2, and the original frontage cleaned, as now, you could have had an impressive transport interchange at ground level.

Instead, Halifax then had Crossfield Bus Station, subsequently too small and a mile or so away from the railway station, and later the Eureka! Childrens' Museum on the site.

Ah, well.

The problem with doing this in Halifax would be that rather than a long walk between the two modes you'd have the main transport interchange some distance from the main commercial area of the town.

There's a fair few towns that could do with better integration between different modes though. Taunton, as mentioned by HowardGWR, is one I'm quite familiar with. It's also an example of a town that should've kept it's tramway, though in Taunton's case the trams only lasted 20 years anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

So a 'Tramway' then? My objections were to the conflict between the lightweight tram-trains you proposed and the heavy rail services that you proposed they'd run alongside.

I think you may misunderstand the concept of a tram-train. Tram-trains can share the same track as trains (not "alongside"), with extra train protection (TPWS or ERTMS) to guard against collisions. A tram-train can also run onto an existing or new street tramway.

This has been running for 20 years in Germany and will be piloted in Rotherham in a few years time. A notional Bradford-Airport tram-train may need extra signalling to allow the tram-trains to run between the trains out of Forster Square in particular, and would also require doubling of the section through Baildon to provide capacity.

 

[Muzer]

I was replying to the post from Muzer. Now I look at it, he didn't state which way he was referring. Anyway, the point is that we have a long way to go before we achieve the standards on the mainland.

Yeah, I was referring to places where the station is next to the bus station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think you may misunderstand the concept of a tram-train. Tram-trains can share the same track as trains (not "alongside"), with extra train protection (TPWS or ERTMS) to guard against collisions. A tram-train can also run onto an existing or new street tramway.

This has been running for 20 years in Germany and will be piloted in Rotherham in a few years time. A notional Bradford-Airport tram-train may need extra signalling to allow the tram-trains to run between the trains out of Forster Square in particular, and would also require doubling of the section through Baildon to provide capacity.

No, I think YOU misunderstand ME. You originally suggested tram-trains running from LBA and onto the Ilkley-Bradford line as far as Forster Square then onto a tramway across the city to Interchange, where it joins the Calder Valley tracks through to Huddersfield via Halifax. My objection at this point was that the intensive heavy-rail use of the stretch between Bradley Junction and Huddersfield would be a major issue for tram-trains. You then revised your proposal to remove the interworking with heavy-rail services- in which case the 'train' aspect of tram-trains is no longer required.

The Rotherham tram-train may well work because as you say it's a concept that's proven in Europe, but crucially the heavy-rail infrastructure it will share is relatively low-speed and lightly-used, whereas Bradley Junction to Huddersfield has speeds of around 80-90mph with 4(soon 5) fast trains per hour along with 3 local tph and a reasonable amount of heavy freight.

 

[al green]

I agree that a rail link between the stations would be beneficial for Bradford and for the wider W Yorks area. The link would enable better local
and regional rail services not just for Bradford but also for other
towns in W Yorks such as Shipley and Halifax.

For example Leeds-Mcr/Blackpool services could run via Shipley and Bradford
providing a direct service between Shipley and Mcr and services from
Leeds to Morecambe and Carlisle could run via Bradford and Shipley.

With all trains using just one station there could be a metro-frequency (every 10 mins or better) service between Bradford and Leeds, some via Shipley and some via Pudsey. And some Ilkley/Skipton-Bradford Forster Square
services could be extended to Halifax and Huddersfield providing
cross-Bradford services .

 

[edwin_m]

No, I think YOU misunderstand ME. You originally suggested tram-trains running from LBA and onto the Ilkley-Bradford line as far as Forster Square then onto a tramway across the city to Interchange, where it joins the Calder Valley tracks through to Huddersfield via Halifax. My objection at this point was that the intensive heavy-rail use of the stretch between Bradley Junction and Huddersfield would be a major issue for tram-trains. You then revised your proposal to remove the interworking with heavy-rail services- in which case the 'train' aspect of tram-trains is no longer required.

The Rotherham tram-train may well work because as you say it's a concept that's proven in Europe, but crucially the heavy-rail infrastructure it will share is relatively low-speed and lightly-used, whereas Bradley Junction to Huddersfield has speeds of around 80-90mph with 4(soon 5) fast trains per hour along with 3 local tph and a reasonable amount of heavy freight.

My suggestion has not changed all the way through - interworking north of FS and south of Interchange and tramway between the two. Huddersfield was a bit of an afterthought on my part, but it there was a capacity issue there it could terminate at Halifax instead. Again I don't think it is likely to happen - I was suggesting it as the only way I could think of that might create a passenger flow to justify a link across Bradford.

 

[Grumpy]

I take your point.

On the other hand, the present bus station in the old Woolshops/Winding Road area is sufficiently far away from some of the shops that some outgoing services pick-up at Commercial St and George St, and incoming ones drop-off at Bull Green and Market St.

Similarly, most services [except perhaps to Siddal] could have picked-up and dropped-off in the same areas on their way to and from a bus station/railway station interchange, without substantially increasing the mileage presently incurred.

Still, it's all academic now.

Why-your proposal was spot on?

The bus station could be relocated to the land currently used for parking next to the station. Put in a passenger escalator to the concourse and a bus ramp to a point near the Horton St/Square Rd junction and we have the essence of your scheme.
You could re-provide some parking on the semi derelict area south of Eureka. By having the bus station close to Eureka it should be a win for them too.
Sell the current bus station site to pay for it.

I accept that the station is "downhill" from the centre but that seems to me to be a further benefit. I also accept that buses from the north would incur more time and mileage. However it's only half a mile or so and should involve routing through parts passengers might wish to use. Buses from the South would involve less mileage of course.

West Yorkshire has had a PTE of sorts for approx. 40 years. One of the principal reasons for a PTE was to integrate public transport. Yet it is ironic that the only integrated bus/rail facility in West Yorks is Bradford Interchange which was committed by the old Bradford Council. Keighley is another where the bus station could have been relocated onto what is now the Sainsbury's car park, with a passage through to the railway station.

 

[tbtc]

West Yorkshire has had a PTE of sorts for approx. 40 years. One of the principal reasons for a PTE was to integrate public transport. Yet it is ironic that the only integrated bus/rail facility in West Yorks is Bradford Interchange which was committed by the old Bradford Council. Keighley is another where the bus station could have been relocated onto what is now the Sainsbury's car park, with a passage through to the railway station.

The bus stances outside Leeds station may not be the main bus station in the city, but they are probably bigger/ busier than many bus stations elsewhere in the UK.

The problem in other places is that the train station is some distance from the actual town/ city centre - so the bus station is often closer to the actual centre (with little incentive to move, and inconvenience many passengers as a result).

 

[Waverley125]

The thing is, connecting Forster Square & Interchange needs to be seen not just as a standalone project, but as part of a much wider upgrading of West Yorkshire's suburban rail network.

First, the scheme would need to replace Interchange & Forster Square with a new station in 'The Hole', with integrated access to the new shopping centre being proposed on that site. A walkway of some kind would need to be constructed to connect the Bus Interchange to the new railway station. This shouldn't be that difficult, a Skybridge with travellators (similar to the one at Dublin Airport) could curve round the buildings following the new track alignment. The station would remain 'Interchange' (although I'd really prefer to bring the 'Bradford Exchange' name back), and Forster Square would be replaced with a station at Manningham to serve Valley Parade (probably at Queens Road).

The re-alignment away from the present Forster Square terminus would give sufficient space to get up the necessary height for crossing Lower Kirkgate. This would require the demolition of one of the end units of the Kirkgate retail park. Small price to pay.

All of this should also be allied with the re-opening of the Bowling Curve, and new stations at Wakefield Road, Laisterdyke and Low Moor. This would allow Leeds-Halifax / Caldervale and Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey services to be made distinct from one another.

Additionally, the re-opening of Bradford-Ravensthorpe via Cleckheaton would give Bradford a direct route to both Wakefield and Sheffield (via Horbury west curve). Couple this with electrification of the Caldervale and you get what might be referred to as a 'Bradford Crossrail'.

Skipton & Ilkley stoppers to Bradford no longer terminate, but instead continue on to either Knottingley via Wakefield Kirkgate & Cleckheaton or to Huddersfield via Halifax. This takes strain off of Leeds city, as it reduces the number of interchange passengers there by opening up a far more convenient route via Bradford.

Additionally, services from Leeds to Caldervale can now run much quicker (and potentially terminate at Todmorden) while through services to Manchester Victoria can be terminated at Bradford. This allows increased frequency to all of those destinations for services into both Leeds & Bradford, as well as shaving at least 10 minutes off Caldervale-Leeds journey times by avoiding the need for reversal. It'd also be a good idea to look at bringing in a 3rd platform at Halifax (in the best way, by bringing the old station building back into railway use) for terminating trains at Halifax, so as to increase the Halifax-Leeds service.

Lastly, Leeds-East Lancs via Halifax services can now run via the A&W to Shipley, increasing connections for those in Airedale at Shipley, as well as speeding up the journey time through Bradford by eliminating the need for a reversal.

I imagine the endgame would see a service pattern something like this:

1tph Ilkley-Knottingley
1tph Ilkley-Huddersfield
1tph Skipton-Knottingley
1tph Skipton-Huddersfield
2tph Leeds-Bradford
2tph Leeds-Todmorden
2tph Bradford-Manchester Victoria

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The thing is, connecting Forster Square & Interchange needs to be seen not just as a standalone project, but as part of a much wider upgrading of West Yorkshire's suburban rail network.

First, the scheme would need to replace Interchange & Forster Square with a new station in 'The Hole', with integrated access to the new shopping centre being proposed on that site. A walkway of some kind would need to be constructed to connect the Bus Interchange to the new railway station. This shouldn't be that difficult, a Skybridge with travellators (similar to the one at Dublin Airport) could curve round the buildings following the new track alignment. The station would remain 'Interchange' (although I'd really prefer to bring the 'Bradford Exchange' name back), and Forster Square would be replaced with a station at Manningham to serve Valley Parade (probably at Queens Road).

The re-alignment away from the present Forster Square terminus would give sufficient space to get up the necessary height for crossing Lower Kirkgate. This would require the demolition of one of the end units of the Kirkgate retail park. Small price to pay.

All of this should also be allied with the re-opening of the Bowling Curve, and new stations at Wakefield Road, Laisterdyke and Low Moor. This would allow Leeds-Halifax / Caldervale and Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey services to be made distinct from one another.

Additionally, the re-opening of Bradford-Ravensthorpe via Cleckheaton would give Bradford a direct route to both Wakefield and Sheffield (via Horbury west curve). Couple this with electrification of the Caldervale and you get what might be referred to as a 'Bradford Crossrail'.

Skipton & Ilkley stoppers to Bradford no longer terminate, but instead continue on to either Knottingley via Wakefield Kirkgate & Cleckheaton or to Huddersfield via Halifax. This takes strain off of Leeds city, as it reduces the number of interchange passengers there by opening up a far more convenient route via Bradford.

Additionally, services from Leeds to Caldervale can now run much quicker (and potentially terminate at Todmorden) while through services to Manchester Victoria can be terminated at Bradford. This allows increased frequency to all of those destinations for services into both Leeds & Bradford, as well as shaving at least 10 minutes off Caldervale-Leeds journey times by avoiding the need for reversal. It'd also be a good idea to look at bringing in a 3rd platform at Halifax (in the best way, by bringing the old station building back into railway use) for terminating trains at Halifax, so as to increase the Halifax-Leeds service.

Lastly, Leeds-East Lancs via Halifax services can now run via the A&W to Shipley, increasing connections for those in Airedale at Shipley, as well as speeding up the journey time through Bradford by eliminating the need for a reversal.

I imagine the endgame would see a service pattern something like this:

1tph Ilkley-Knottingley
1tph Ilkley-Huddersfield
1tph Skipton-Knottingley
1tph Skipton-Huddersfield
2tph Leeds-Bradford
2tph Leeds-Todmorden
2tph Bradford-Manchester Victoria

If ever the money were available, this does seem on the face of it a sensible plan. I'm particularly impressed with the idea of reinstating the Horbury curve as this would allow a faster Huddersfield-Sheffield service. I'm not sure about the Bowling curve, as I'd be surprised if avoiding Bradford made sense economically. My only other caveat would be the idea of evicting Eureka from the old station building at Halifax, as this would remove a significant draw for off-peak travel to Halifax. The number of school parties that use the train for trips there is quite astonishing- often they have come from as far afield as Penistone and Rochdale.

I'm going slightly off-topic here but with the talk of the problems caused in Halifax by the distance between the bus station and the railway station (and indeed the main shopping area) it surprises me that Halifax doesn't have a 'Free Town Bus' considering it probably needs one far more than Huddersfield and certainly needs it more than Dewsbury.

 

[Grumpy]

The bus stances outside Leeds station may not be the main bus station in the city, but they are probably bigger/ busier than many bus stations elsewhere in the UK.

The problem in other places is that the train station is some distance from the actual town/ city centre - so the bus station is often closer to the actual centre (with little incentive to move, and inconvenience many passengers as a result).

Your comments re Leeds may have some merit, but I wonder if realistically these just replaced stands outside the station in City Square. I cant remember. Certainly there have been some extensions across the City such as former West Riding services which now give better access.

However the main bus station still remains half a mile or so away, tantalisingly close to the railway tracks. It is sometimes known as the Central Bus Station but that's misleading as it's really east of the Centre and separated from it by the Leeds markets. Arguably the commercial centre has moved towards the station e.g. the new Trinity shopping centre whilst the markets and surrounding area have been in steady decline for years.

Over the past 20 years or so much of the area around the railways station has been knocked down and redeveloped. Lots of opportunities to relocate the bus station to be close to the railway station have been lost as the PTE showed no initiative. No doubt having lots of meetings having fantasies about how to squander millions on trams or trolley buses.

There is still some undeveloped space off Sovereign street currently used for car parking. I wonder if this could be used to relocate the bus station. Some sort of short pedestrian access under the railway tracks through to Boar Lane and thus the commercial centre ought to be feasible. Similarly up to the station entrance area. You could still build above the bus station.

It would put the buses closer to the commercial area, railway station, and indeed proposed HS2 station.

With regards to other places in West Yorks I don't think relocating Halifax and Keighley bus stations as discussed earlier would have been to worse locations than they have now. Comment has already been made re Huddersfield-my own solution would have been to shut the bus station and relocate the buses to the open area in front of the railway station. No doubt there are some on here who would argue that this would spoil the view of the frontage and they would rather keep this and shut out the image of little old ladies dragging cases over the icy pavements
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

snip.

.

 

[HowardGWR]

How long has the Horbury west curve been taken up? Google Earth shews it still there.

 

[Ploughman]

Google Earth also shows my works van in its usual spot outside my house.

Trouble is I retired in July 2009.

 

[Darren R]

The thing is, connecting Forster Square & Interchange needs to be seen not just as a standalone project, but as part of a much wider upgrading of West Yorkshire's suburban rail network.

All of this should also be allied with the re-opening of the Bowling Curve, and new stations at Wakefield Road, Laisterdyke and Low Moor. This would allow Leeds-Halifax / Caldervale and Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey services to be made distinct from one another.

Additionally, the re-opening of Bradford-Ravensthorpe via Cleckheaton would give Bradford a direct route to both Wakefield and Sheffield (via Horbury west curve). Couple this with electrification of the Caldervale and you get what might be referred to as a 'Bradford Crossrail'.

Skipton & Ilkley stoppers to Bradford no longer terminate, but instead continue on to either Knottingley via Wakefield Kirkgate & Cleckheaton or to Huddersfield via Halifax. This takes strain off of Leeds city, as it reduces the number of interchange passengers there by opening up a far more convenient route via Bradford.

Additionally, services from Leeds to Caldervale can now run much quicker (and potentially terminate at Todmorden) while through services to Manchester Victoria can be terminated at Bradford. This allows increased frequency to all of those destinations for services into both Leeds & Bradford, as well as shaving at least 10 minutes off Caldervale-Leeds journey times by avoiding the need for reversal. It'd also be a good idea to look at bringing in a 3rd platform at Halifax (in the best way, by bringing the old station building back into railway use) for terminating trains at Halifax, so as to increase the Halifax-Leeds service.

Lastly, Leeds-East Lancs via Halifax services can now run via the A&W to Shipley, increasing connections for those in Airedale at Shipley, as well as speeding up the journey time through Bradford by eliminating the need for a reversal.

None of these proposals do anything for the long-suffering residents of Bradford who've had the heart ripped out of their city centre. It's all very good looking at it from a railway 'wish-list' point of view, but the point of redeveloping Bradford city centre is other than to make it easier for people from Knottingley to get to Ilkley easier - and I can't believe that's much of a market in the first place!

Your plans seem to be (partly) to divert as many trains away from Leeds as possible. Trouble is - that's where most passengers want to go. Unless I'm misunderstanding your ideas, passengers from the Calder Valley Line would have to change to get to Leeds. Passengers from the Knottingley line wanting Leeds as their destination would have to go via Wakefield to Bradford and change there. Additionally the Knottingley - Skipton/Ilkely would either have to be DMUs or the wires going up to Knottingley - either way it's not gonna happen!

Trains from Yorkshire can't terminate at Todmorden - there isn't the facilities - but also, why would you want them to? As for the East Lancashire services, what time they gained by avoiding the reversal at Bradford they would lose on the longer route to Leeds via Shipley. And the Bradford - Sheffield direct route avoids all other major towns en route! There may well be a market for through trains to Sheffield - but not without it calling at other places like Halifax and Wakefield as well.

There is probably something to be said in favour of reopening the Low Moor -Thornhill line. Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmondwike are quite large towns and have expanded greatly since the line closed. A through train from Bradford Interchange to Wakefield via the Spen Valley would be useful and probably quite popular. But I don't really see any point in reopening the Bowling Junction to Laisterdyke line. I know it looks useful on paper and an obvious candidate for reopening, but there are as many passengers from Halifax (and west thereof) who get off at Bradford as do at Leeds. Either you have to halve the number of services to each seperate destination, or you'd have to run twice as many trains per hour. The former suits no-one and busy as these trains are I don't think there is suffiicient demand for a train every seven minutes from Halifax.

Sorry if I appear hyper-critical: I know this is basically a fantasy thread (since there is zero chance of it happening), but surely the whole point of redeveloping Bradford city centre is to improve things for Bradfordians themselves. All these plans do is make it possible for 'out-of-towners' to avoid the city altogether and save a couple of minutes on their journeys.

I think we're in danger of 'spending' billions of pounds solving a problem that's just not that big a an issue anyway! And it's really not that big a problem - ten minutes stretching your legs as you walk across town! (And for those of us who smoke - that's a very convenient break from railway premises! )

 

[CalderRail]

surely the whole point of redeveloping Bradford city centre is to improve things for Bradfordians themselves

We're making it easier for them to leave...

 

[Darren R]

We're making it easier for them to leave...

Well I didn't like to say that! But the state the city centre has been in for so long I couldn't really blame them! Ah well - now they've got Gorgeous George on their case perhaps something will get done! (It really is quite scandalous what has happened to Bradford city centre over the years - if I lived there I really would be ...)

 

[CalderRail]

I used to live there. It has actually improved - they knocked down the scabby national building in the square.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

How long has the Horbury west curve been taken up? Google Earth shews it still there.

Walked it (trespassed?) a couple of times last summer. No track left, barring a couple of lonely single length pieces.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

 

[MarkyT]

Here's my alternative solution for Bradford:

http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

Instead of linking the lines as previously suggested, this proposal replaces Forster Square with a new terminus under the future major retail development and remodels Interchange as a through station connected to a new rail link from its north end towards Leeds. Trans-pennine trains between Leeds and Manchester via Halifax would thus avoid reversal at Bradford, improving journey time. Retaining the existing route from Leeds into the station from the south end would provide a reversing loop facility to turn back terminating trains from the Leeds direction quickly. If this line was electrified, direct London to Bradford trains could run via the (electrified) Hambleton connection, via Leeds with no reversal, avoiding the longer route via Shipley with its power supply capacity restrictions. The two stations in Bradford would be linked via a high quality traffic free pedestrian connection through the current court complex car parks which would also plug the new developments effectively in to the bus station.

 

[Waverley125]

None of these proposals do anything for the long-suffering residents of Bradford who've had the heart ripped out of their city centre. It's all very good looking at it from a railway 'wish-list' point of view, but the point of redeveloping Bradford city centre is other than to make it easier for people from Knottingley to get to Ilkley easier - and I can't believe that's much of a market in the first place!

Here we disagree. Bradford has now reached such a point of decline, and has lost so much of what were once its prosperous northern suburbs to the Leeds conurbation that it'd best hope now is to be a secondary centre for the 'Greater Leeds' area, in much the same way that Stockport is for Manchester. It's neither far enough away from Leeds or big enough to be able to command its own competitively-sized city centre.

Your plans seem to be (partly) to divert as many trains away from Leeds as possible. Trouble is - that's where most passengers want to go. Unless I'm misunderstanding your ideas, passengers from the Calder Valley Line would have to change to get to Leeds. Passengers from the Knottingley line wanting Leeds as their destination would have to go via Wakefield to Bradford and change there. Additionally the Knottingley - Skipton/Ilkely would either have to be DMUs or the wires going up to Knottingley - either way it's not gonna happen!

Reducing congestion at Leeds City is something that needs to happen. However, my plan doesn't see that happening. There would be at least 4tph Bradford Exchange - Leeds, 2 via Shipley and 2 via Pudsey. Plus with currently separate paths becoming interconnected (one train would run Leeds-Shipley-Bradford-Pudsey-Leeds) you'd be able to fit more trains into the existing paths, raising the prospect of a higher Leeds-Bradford frequency.

Passengers from the Calder Valley would have quicker Leeds trains, no longer reversing at Bradford, as well as more frequent trains into Bradford as the same number of units can run more trains on a shorter service.

Knottingley would (obviously) retain its direct service to Leeds via Pontefract. However, passengers for Ilkley or Skipton would be able to take a direct train and avoid Leeds.

Yes, this would require wiring to Knottingley, something I'd support under this plan. Also given it's a spur off the Hallam lane, and wiring the HL already has a pretty high CBR IIRC, it'd be (relatively) cheap.

Trains from Yorkshire can't terminate at Todmorden - there isn't the facilities - but also, why would you want them to? As for the East Lancashire services, what time they gained by avoiding the reversal at Bradford they would lose on the longer route to Leeds via Shipley. And the Bradford - Sheffield direct route avoids all other major towns en route! There may well be a market for through trains to Sheffield - but not without it calling at other places like Halifax and Wakefield as well.

Installing a turnback at Todmorden wouldn't (I'd imagine) be too hard. Also it's convenient, given Todmorden will be receiving extra services to Manchester once the Todmorden curve opens. Terminating at Todmorden reduces the likelihood of delays in Leeds affecting Manchester-Burnley services, which is a good thing.

Bradford-Leeds via Shipley comes in at 18 minutes without a stop at Frizinghall. The fastest services via Pudsey are 21. So there's no delay to running north out of Bradford, plus you increase capacity for a section of line which is best suited to solely stopping trains (entirely urban, steep gradients and low speed limits).

Bradford-Sheffield would run via Barnsley and Meadowhall as well as the Spen towns. I reckon probably an hourly service would suffice, plus at least an hourly Huddersfield-Sheffield fast service.

With a calling pattern of: Low Moor, Cleckheaton, Liversedge, Heckmondwike, Dewsbury Moor, Thornhill Lees, Horbury, Darton, Barnsley, Meadowhall & Sheffield it should be fairly well patronised.

There is probably something to be said in favour of reopening the Low Moor -Thornhill line. Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmondwike are quite large towns and have expanded greatly since the line closed. A through train from Bradford Interchange to Wakefield via the Spen Valley would be useful and probably quite popular. But I don't really see any point in reopening the Bowling Junction to Laisterdyke line. I know it looks useful on paper and an obvious candidate for reopening, but there are as many passengers from Halifax (and west thereof) who get off at Bradford as do at Leeds. Either you have to halve the number of services to each seperate destination, or you'd have to run twice as many trains per hour. The former suits no-one and busy as these trains are I don't think there is suffiicient demand for a train every seven minutes from Halifax.

Yeah, and in both cases you increase frequency / reduce journey times.

2tph Leeds - Halifax / Caldervale with a now sub-30 minutes journey time.
4tph Bradford-Halifax (2 continuing to Huddersfield, 2 to Manchester)

Sorry if I appear hyper-critical: I know this is basically a fantasy thread (since there is zero chance of it happening), but surely the whole point of redeveloping Bradford city centre is to improve things for Bradfordians themselves. All these plans do is make it possible for 'out-of-towners' to avoid the city altogether and save a couple of minutes on their journeys.

I think we're in danger of 'spending' billions of pounds solving a problem that's just not that big a an issue anyway! And it's really not that big a problem - ten minutes stretching your legs as you walk across town! (And for those of us who smoke - that's a very convenient break from railway premises! )

This isn't about redeveloping Bradford city centre, it's just a project that happens to be relocated there. It's a very beneficial project for the wider regional network, which while it would present opportunities for redevelopment in Bradford isn't solely designed for them.

 

[HowardGWR]

Here's my alternative solution for Bradford:

http://www.townend.me/files/bradford.pdf

Instead of linking the lines as previously suggested, this proposal replaces Forster Square with a new terminus under the future major retail development and remodels Interchange as a through station connected to a new rail link from its north end towards Leeds. Trans-pennine trains between Leeds and Manchester via Halifax would thus avoid reversal at Bradford, improving journey time. Retaining the existing route from Leeds into the station from the south end would provide a reversing loop facility to turn back terminating trains from the Leeds direction quickly. If this line was electrified, direct London to Bradford trains could run via the (electrified) Hambleton connection, via Leeds with no reversal, avoiding the longer route via Shipley with its power supply capacity restrictions. The two stations in Bradford would be linked via a high quality traffic free pedestrian connection through the current court complex car parks which would also plug the new developments effectively in to the bus station.

As always, interesting Mark, but is this green loop feasible? I had a look around the area and could not divine any obvious gaps for it. Also the question of gradients seemed to be an issue.

My old map shews an Adolphus Street Goods on the trajectory but I could not find a street of that name. Perhaps it was all swept away for bowling alleys and multiplexes (judging by what's there now).

 

[IanD]

As always, interesting Mark, but is this green loop feasible? I had a look around the area and could not divine any obvious gaps for it. Also the question of gradients seemed to be an issue.

My old map shews an Adolphus Street Goods on the trajectory but I could not find a street of that name. Perhaps it was all swept away for bowling alleys and multiplexes (judging by what's there now).

I'd run that green track straight down Hammerton Street, that's not a particularly pleasant thoroughfare, but if you're going to do that you may as well continue across the hole and head to Forster Square.

I've attached my revised idea based on someone else's idea that Leeds to Halifax trains use a re-opened Bowling curve. (Although I've used a reopned St Dunstans curve instead in green). The pink lines are no longer used. The route marked in red needs a bit of tweaking to avoid wiping out half of Little Germany after the end of Hammerton Street!

 

[JohnB57]

My old map shews an Adolphus Street Goods on the trajectory but I could not find a street of that name. Perhaps it was all swept away for bowling alleys and multiplexes (judging by what's there now).

Surprisingly, no. Although Adolphus Street disappeared when Wakefield Road was remodeled, the location still preserves much of the original railway including the station approach road, at the junction with Dryden Street. Disused Stations' website has these images - http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bradford_adolphus_street/.

 

[HowardGWR]

Surprisingly, no. Although Adolphus Street disappeared when Wakefield Road was remodeled, the location still preserves much of the original railway including the station approach road, at the junction with Dryden Street. Disused Stations' website has these images - http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bradford_adolphus_street/.

Thanks to all for indulging my stranger's queries, most interesting. Bradford in this area reminds me of Bristol in the 1950s with all the centre hollowed out by the Luftwaffe. One could park all over the place in those days and it seems that is the chief use of this vast area now. Goodness knows where everyone is actually destined, who parks there.

I wrote sometime back that it needs a combination of planners and councillors to sit back and decide whether Bradford should just die or be resurrected. I suppose the nearness of Leeds is the issue. It's not just a transport issue is it, but transport has to be a component of the solution.

Just my take as an outsider.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's a little detail overlaid on a birdseye view around Interchange showing how surprisingly little property would be affected by the link keeping to a curve radius no less than 200 metres. Overall the gradient would average about 1 in 40, a change if around 30 metres in a total length of 1300 metres.

http://www.townend.me/files/bradford3.pdf