Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?

[61653 HTAFC]

Getting across Halifax by rail is not a problem as it is a through station, linking destinations such as Leeds & Bradford with Huddersfield and stations to Manchester.

It is a through-station, but not in the directions these supposed Huddersfield-Ilkley/Skipton travellers would want! I remember years ago the main Huddersfield to Halifax bus route had hourly extensions to Keighley via Denholme and to Bradford via Thornton, this was in Yorkshire Rider days though. Nowadays there little if any buses from Halifax to Keighley despite the two town having stong historical links. The only real option today is to change at Bradford (train or bus) or in the summer there's the Hebden Bridge bus to Keighley. Though as the main advantages of Bradford Crossrail offered by it's advocates seem to be yet more trains into Leeds, I doubt links between any other places affected would improve all that much.

 

[IanD]

Couldn't put it better myself.

For the cost of demolishing chunks of central Bradford to squeeze a new line in (which wouldn't provide any significant new links of use to large numbers of people) we could electrify the Calder Valley line and probably have a few quid spare.

At this moment, the vast majority of the centre of Bradford which would need to be demolished has already been cleared.

 

[bluenoxid]

Instead of trying to link them together, what about extending the Forster Square line to near the Interchange and terminating on the Court building. Use the remains of P1/2 at Forster Square as an island and turn Interchange into the railway station it should be. I assume that a subway could connect the two.

 

[edwin_m]

There is a proposal to build a tram-train from Leeds to Leeds-Bradford Airport. It might be possible, though very costly, to extend this to join the Ilkley line to Forster Square, then on street to rejoin the railway at Interchange and continue to Halifax or Huddersfield.

 

[Grumpy]

Instead of trying to link them together, what about extending the Forster Square line to near the Interchange and terminating on the Court building. Use the remains of P1/2 at Forster Square as an island and turn Interchange into the railway station it should be. I assume that a subway could connect the two.

I don't think you need to use the Court building. My reading of IanD's scheme is the tracks currently serving platforms3/4 would be extended under Bridge St then take a slither of the car parking alongside Vicar Lane and then a slither of the Court car park (which could be re-provided at the other side of the building), before crossing Hall Ings and then through the wastelands to the Forster Square area.

The key point which some fail to grasp is that the area between the two stations is currently undeveloped and you don't have to knock anything down (that's already been done) until you get to Forster Square-and the RM building might be being demolished anyway and thus provide a route through.

It could be you are suggesting much of the above and providing platforms north of Bridge St with a subway connection through-but would you really want to spend most of the money and miss out the last few yards that would give a through link?

 

[tbtc]

At this moment, the vast majority of the centre of Bradford which would need to be demolished has already been cleared.

You'd still have to turn even more of the centre into a building site, for something that gives the people of Bradford little real benefit (especially when compared to what else the money could be spent on).

Would be nice if it happened, and interesting to speculate on potential service patterns (much like one central station in Glasgow for the same reasons), but there are a lot of more deserving projects.

 

[HowardGWR]

You'd still have to turn even more of the centre into a building site, for something that gives the people of Bradford little real benefit (especially when compared to what else the money could be spent on).

Would be nice if it happened, and interesting to speculate on potential service patterns (much like one central station in Glasgow for the same reasons), but there are a lot of more deserving projects.

You may be right, but if the development proposal comes back, would it not be a very attractive idea to make the new central station the hub (literally) of that development. It would then attract comparison shoppers from all those other towns and also give an impetus to other clerical-based development.

Surely this offers a future for Bradford -even tourism would be encouraged. Bradford has a history doesn't it?

 

[tbtc]

You may be right, but if the development proposal comes back, would it not be a very attractive idea to make the new central station the hub (literally) of that development. It would then attract comparison shoppers from all those other towns and also give an impetus to other clerical-based development.

Surely this offers a future for Bradford -even tourism would be encouraged. Bradford has a history doesn't it?

One of the attractions of the station on the Calder Valley line is that its an interchange with other public transport (hence its name) - closing the current "Interchange" station to move to a central station would benefit some people but inconvenience a lot of others.

 

[34D]

At this moment, the vast majority of the centre of Bradford which would need to be demolished has already been cleared.

Yes. Now or never.

I don't even see how it would have a phenomenal cost.

The idea of a station on the curve (call it Bradford South?) is interesting though

 

[HowardGWR]

One of the attractions of the station on the Calder Valley line is that its an interchange with other public transport (hence its name) - closing the current "Interchange" station to move to a central station would benefit some people but inconvenience a lot of others.

Well don't close it then. It could remain open for certain purposes but you don't need to have bus stations where buses call. It seems to me that Bradford needs a clever planner with some gumption and a lead councillor to match. A bit like when London had Ken Livingstone and P Hendy working together.

 

[CalderRail]

Yes. Now or never.

I don't even see how it would have a phenomenal cost.

The idea of a station on the curve (call it Bradford South?) is interesting though

The curve was why I earlier suggested putting it on the old Bowling Curve alignment. It's straight in parts, and the entire thing would be off the live lines while you built it.

It's also further south, so the gradient becomes less of an issue if you link Forster Square to it.

 

[Darren R]

Bradford has bigger fish to fry than joining the two railway stations. As for council support - I thought the council were fully behind the cockamany scheme. Have they changed their collective minds recently?

The only people that the scheme would benefit are those who interchange between the two (of which I am one.) Sure it would benefit us, but it does nothing for Bradford and its residents. It would certainly make the journey across town more attractive, since the depressing and dismal state of what was once a proud and independent city would be avoided. But I don't see as how Huddersfield to Ilkley through trains would improve things for the average Bradfordian.

Nor do I see sufficient demand to justify it, either. I have never seen any evidence of a great dash across town to forward connections at the other station. Yes people do it, but even during the peaks I've never found myself amidst a great throng dashing across town. If money is available Bradford has far more pressing needs.

Originally Posted by Welshman
Despite my forum-name, I was born in Halifax[of Welsh ancestry], and then worked across the Valley with the Golcar Lillies from 1970-1977!

As a Tyke there is no excuse for this then:

Why should folks from Huddersfield want to go to Ilkley , with, or bar t'hat?

I think you'll find it is actually "On Ilkla Moor baht 'at"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well don't close it then. It could remain open for certain purposes but you don't need to have bus stations where buses call. It seems to me that Bradford needs a clever planner with some gumption and a lead councillor to match. A bit like when London had Ken Livingstone and P Hendy working together.

Halifax is a current West Yorkshire example of a sizeable settlement where the railway station and the bus station are said to be far enough apart to be an inconvenience to travellers wishing to avail themselves of the facilities of both of these to make journeys.

 

[IanD]

I don't think you need to use the Court building. My reading of IanD's scheme is the tracks currently serving platforms3/4 would be extended under Bridge St then take a slither of the car parking alongside Vicar Lane and then a slither of the Court car park (which could be re-provided at the other side of the building), before crossing Hall Ings and then through the wastelands to the Forster Square area.

The key point which some fail to grasp is that the area between the two stations is currently undeveloped and you don't have to knock anything down (that's already been done) until you get to Forster Square-and the RM building might be being demolished anyway and thus provide a route through.

That's it in a nutshell. At the time of my original post, the RM building was scheduled for demolition as RM were supposed to be relocating to Leeds.

I know it's unlikely to happen but it could be achieved without Bradford losing rail services for 2 years as 61653 HTAFC suggested. The link could be built initially unconnected in the current hole keeping both stations open only necessitating closure when the connections were put in place closing each station in turn to carry out the work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One of the attractions of the station on the Calder Valley line is that its an interchange with other public transport (hence its name) - closing the current "Interchange" station to move to a central station would benefit some people but inconvenience a lot of others.

You move the whole "Interchange", buses and all. When I visit my parents in Bradford, the majority of buses I need don't even serve the interchange (and never have) so I have to walk to either Hall Ings or Market Street depending on which station I arrive at.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for council support - I thought the council were fully behind the cockamany scheme. Have they changed their collective minds recently?

I think only recently they changed their mind from being against it to not being against it but not exactly giving it their unqualified support.

 

[billio]

Halifax is a current West Yorkshire example of a sizeable settlement where the railway station and the bus station are said to be far enough apart to be an inconvenience to travellers wishing to avail themselves of the facilities of both of these to make journeys.

Leeds is the same, especially annoying as the railway passes within a hundred yards of the bus station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is a proposal to build a tram-train from Leeds to Leeds-Bradford Airport. It might be possible, though very costly, to extend this to join the Ilkley line to Forster Square, then on street to rejoin the railway at Interchange and continue to Halifax or Huddersfield.

The idea of using tram-trains in an area where there isn't an existing tramway is ridiculous. Even if money was no object, expecting an intensively(by Northern standards)-served railway to share it's infrastructure with slow light-rail vehicles would create many problems and solve none. If a fixed link between the Interchange and Forster Square is wanted, just build that- there's no need to screw up the rest of the county's railway to provide it!

 

[AndyLandy]

I suspect there's a common answer to every city with multiple rail stations:

Yes, having only one mainline station would be far more useful to allow better connections and more journey opportunities. However, in practice, if it hasn't been done already, there's probably a good reason for it, and that's likely to be because the BCR isn't high enough.

Personally, I'd like it if Hartford had an interchange station between the WCML and the Mid-Cheshire Railway, but somehow I can't see that ever being an actual viable possibility.

 

[edwin_m]

The idea of using tram-trains in an area where there isn't an existing tramway is ridiculous. Even if money was no object, expecting an intensively(by Northern standards)-served railway to share it's infrastructure with slow light-rail vehicles would create many problems and solve none. If a fixed link between the Interchange and Forster Square is wanted, just build that- there's no need to screw up the rest of the county's railway to provide it!

Do trains between Huddersfield and Bradford or Bradford and Ilkley get much above 60mph anyway (the top speed of the tram-trains)?

If the airport link was built it would almost certainly need tram-trains due to the gradients. The airport link also creates a need for journeys across Bradford, which from earlier posts may not exist with the present network . If tram-trains are running anyway then making the link across Bradford as tramway instead of railway would impact much less on the city centre as steeper gradients and street running would be possible. It would also cost less.

I agree all this is all fairly improbable, mainly because the airport link itself is probably difficult to justify, but I don't think it's worthy of being dismissed as ridiculous.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do trains between Huddersfield and Bradford or Bradford and Ilkley get much above 60mph anyway (the top speed of the tram-trains)?

If the airport link was built it would almost certainly need tram-trains due to the gradients. The airport link also creates a need for journeys across Bradford, which from earlier posts may not exist with the present network . If tram-trains are running anyway then making the link across Bradford as tramway instead of railway would impact much less on the city centre as steeper gradients and street running would be possible. It would also cost less.

I agree all this is all fairly improbable, mainly because the airport link itself is probably difficult to justify, but I don't think it's worthy of being dismissed as ridiculous.

I agree with you about the airport link being a non-starter. Of course if Leeds had got it's trams an airport line would be great, but that's another story. The part I think is ridiculous is the idea of using tram-trains in a place where the tramway infrastructure isn't already in place. Essentially you'd get all the disadvantages of downgrading to light-rail and very few of the benefits as far as passenger journey options are concerned. As I stated earlier, most of the supposed problems of Bradford having 2 unconnected stations could be solved for the cost of 5 Optare Solos and maybe a slight tweak of bus lanes and one-way streets!

Bradford-Huddersfield trains don't get much above 60mph as far as I know, but they do however share the final 2-3miles of track into Huddersfield with the Transpennine expresses that will, by 2020, be running at 6tph. I imagine there'd be some issues with what are essentially light-rail vehicles sharing tracks with 90mph expresses and heavy freight either in terms of crashworthiness requirements for the Tram-Trains or in lost capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The idea of providing a unified railway station in Northern England serving two routes with termini on either side of a city centre came to fruition as long ago as 1844 in Manchester with the full agreement of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway (Liverpool Road Station) and the Manchester and Leeds Railway (Oldham Road station).

 

[JohnB57]

Halifax is a current West Yorkshire example of a sizeable settlement where the railway station and the bus station are said to be far enough apart to be an inconvenience to travellers wishing to avail themselves of the facilities of both of these to make journeys.

Leeds is the same, especially annoying as the railway passes within a hundred yards of the bus station.

The vast majority of sizeable settlements fall into the same category. In West Yorkshire, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Dewsbury, Keighley, Brighouse, Batley and Mirfield, to name but a few, are all in the same position.

I'm normally deeply sceptical about these sorts of schemes, but in the case of Bradford, I can see that a retail/leisure development built alongside or integral to a true transport hub, including a through railway line, would transform the city.

Whether the cost could ever be justified is a different matter but Bradford certainly needs a massive shot in the arm.

 

[Muzer]

I don't know many places where this *isn't* the case

 

[edwin_m]

The part I think is ridiculous is the idea of using tram-trains in a place where the tramway infrastructure isn't already in place. Essentially you'd get all the disadvantages of downgrading to light-rail and very few of the benefits as far as passenger journey options are concerned.

Remembering this is all fairly much notional, it would be possible to produce a tram-train scheme which still allowed trains to reach Forster Square and Interchange but only tram-trains to run between one and the other. This wouldn't be a downgrade, rather an upgrade although a more limited one that providing a railway between the two stations.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

The vast majority of sizeable settlements fall into the same category. In West Yorkshire, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Dewsbury, Keighley, Brighouse, Batley and Mirfield, to name but a few, are all in the same position.

I'm normally deeply sceptical about these sorts of schemes, but in the case of Bradford, I can see that a retail/leisure development built alongside or integral to a true transport hub, including a through railway line, would transform the city.

Whether the cost could ever be justified is a different matter but Bradford certainly needs a massive shot in the arm.

If only it had been possible/desirable/affordable enough to convert the railway goods warehouse into a magnificent bus station to make a truly integrated transport hub in Huddersfield.

 

[IanD]

I don't know many places where this *isn't* the case

Places I've visited recently: Milton Keynes, Lewisham, Walthamstow.

 

[HowardGWR]

Places I've visited recently: Milton Keynes, Lewisham, Walthamstow.

I'll add Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Bristol, Reading.............

Bus stations well away from railway stations.

 

[AndyHudds]

Last I checked the old trackbed was an access road and a cycleway. You might have to build a new road for the industrial unit, but that's it.

Here's the aerial view, you can clearly see the track alignment as "Sustrans 66"

https://www.google.co.uk/maps?q=Sus...&hnear=Sustrans+Route+66,+United+Kingdom&z=15




As I said earlier, my opinion is that the Interchange's problem is its nature as a terminus. If it were built on the old bowling curve as a through station with routes south and south-west to access, it'd pick up a lot more traffic and drive the (projected) cross-pennine route through the city. As it is, it's more likely to get bypassed and left to further decay by any such route.

I've called for this many time and even mentioned it to Metro, who just seemed indifferent to its reopening. There is quite a large area of population in the form of Cleckheaton, Liversedge and Heckmondwike with no access to anything other than buses. As pointed out the trackbed is intact aside for the Low Moor area and a curve could be added in the Huddersfield direction in the Ravensthorpe area with a revamped Ravensthorpe Station with platforms in the Wakefield direction.

 

[IanD]

I'll add Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Bristol, Reading.............

Bus stations well away from railway stations.

I was listing places where the bus station is next to the rail station.

 

[HowardGWR]

I was listing places where the bus station is next to the rail station.

I was replying to the post from Muzer. Now I look at it, he didn't state which way he was referring. Anyway, the point is that we have a long way to go before we achieve the standards on the mainland.

 

[Welshman]

If only it had been possible/desirable/affordable enough to convert the railway goods warehouse into a magnificent bus station to make a truly integrated transport hub in Huddersfield.

Likewise at Halifax.

When the old goods yard and sidings were removed, there was an ideal opportunity to build a new bus station on the site.

With a ramped access from Church St, the new site could have been at the same level as the platforms, thus allowing the present road bridge to the station[which must add to the maintenance costs] to be removed.

If the island platforms 3 & 4 had been adapted for the new station instead of the original island 1 & 2, and the original frontage cleaned, as now, you could have had an impressive transport interchange at ground level.

Instead, Halifax then had Crossfield Bus Station, subsequently too small and a mile or so away from the railway station, and later the Eureka! Childrens' Museum on the site.

Ah, well.