BR Class 180 - Adelantes

[Energy]

Except that 180s and 222s have the same engines - Cummins QSK19s

Ok... but the rest of the train is completely different? 222s are diesel electric, 180s are diesel hydraulic. And you'd still need to train staff.

 

[skyhigh]

Except that 180s and 222s have the same engines - Cummins QSK19s

What's that got to do with it? Engines are only a small part of the overall vehicle that needs maintenance (and is completely different).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

According to a post in UK Railway Discussion, Beacon Rail have announced the refresh, rebranding and then transfer of ten Class 221s to Grand Central when eight more finish at Avanti West Coast. This would dispel the ideas that EMR's 180s are going to Grand Central, at least permanently. They could end up their in the interim - and for selfish reasons, I rather hope they do (I still need 180110!)

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is for discussion on the 180s themselves only. There is an existing thread here for discussion of the news that 221s are going to Grand Central and what that means for both GC and XC.

 

[D365]

This thread is for discussion on the 180s themselves only. There is an existing thread here for discussion of the news that 221s are going to Grand Central and what that means for both GC and XC.

Thanks ainsworth74. I was wondering why I couldn't find a T&RS thread, looks like you've fixed that.

 

[Snow1964]

At the moment long term future is still uncertain. Grand Central might replace with 221s ex Avanti, and look to be trialling couple that were spare and stored. East Midlands won't really need their token quantity when 810s in service (so about 2025 when trains nearer 24 years old)

The general problem of the hydraulic drives exists (but 180 engines are basically same as those in a 221). You either persist hoping a depot could specialise in them, learn their foibles and improve reliability. I assume a 22 year old train would not normally be a starting point for retractioning (and that doesn't have a good track record)

Of course the other possible solution is to de-power them and convert them to trailer sets. But would need to buy some new locos. Possibly an electric loco with diesel backup, rather than something noisy like a 68

 

[RobShipway]

At the moment long term future is still uncertain. Grand Central might replace with 221s ex Avanti, and look to be trialling couple that were spare and stored. East Midlands won't really need their token quantity when 810s in service (so about 2025 when trains nearer 24 years old)

The general problem of the hydraulic drives exists (but 180 engines are basically same as those in a 221). You either persist hoping a depot could specialise in them, learn their foibles and improve reliability. I assume a 22 year old train would not normally be a starting point for retractioning (and that doesn't have a good track record)

Of course the other possible solution is to de-power them and convert them to trailer sets. But would need to buy some new locos. Possibly an electric loco with diesel backup, rather than something noisy like a 68

Could the class 93 not be used?

 

[DoubleO]

Surely they'd need two locos per set, otherwise one of the driving cabs would need converting to the extent that it would either be impossible or ridiculously expensive.

 

[Snow1964]

Surely they'd need two locos per set, otherwise one of the driving cabs would need converting to the extent that it would either be impossible or ridiculously expensive.

Not sure how expensive it would be to convert, already have drivers desk, so more a control system to replace existing that is needed. I don't know if it would be compatible with modern locos, but might even be able to recover equipment from something like mk3 DVT (if any are still available)

It's not a totally bonkers idea converting 180s to push/pull trailer sets, and of course they don't even have to stay as 5car, would be possible to split some sets to lengthen others. Might even be possible to bodge middle car from a 175 into them too.

Something like a class 93, or even the underused 67s might be available.

Wouldn't be any use for high speed workings, but currently have lots of longer 90-100mph regional trains where the current rolling stock is less than ideal. Either because using a suburban DMU for 3+ hour journeys, or is seeing wasteful overkill eg IETs on Cardiff-Penzance where never get anywhere near their design speed. The real benefit is for just bit of conversion cost and some training, can unlock other rolling stock which is lot cheaper than buying new trains instead.

 

[skyhigh]

At the moment long term future is still uncertain. Grand Central might replace with 221s ex Avanti, and look to be trialling couple that were spare and stored. East Midlands won't really need their token quantity when 810s in service (so about 2025 when trains nearer 24 years old)

EMR has already off-leased their 180s as far as I'm aware. The GC units are the only ones currently in service.

 

[DoubleO]

Not sure how expensive it would be to convert, already have drivers desk, so more a control system to replace existing that is needed. I don't know if it would be compatible with modern locos, but might even be able to recover equipment from something like mk3 DVT (if any are still available)

It's not a totally bonkers idea converting 180s to push/pull trailer sets, and of course they don't even have to stay as 5car, would be possible to split some sets to lengthen others. Might even be possible to bodge middle car from a 175 into them too.

Something like a class 93, or even the underused 67s might be available.

Wouldn't be any use for high speed workings, but currently have lots of longer 90-100mph regional trains where the current rolling stock is less than ideal. Either because using a suburban DMU for 3+ hour journeys, or is seeing wasteful overkill eg IETs on Cardiff-Penzance where never get anywhere near their design speed. The real benefit is for just bit of conversion cost and some training, can unlock other rolling stock which is lot cheaper than buying new trains instead.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. The cost would be totally unjustified especially for units that are aging and apparently showing signs of rot etc. Plus, DB are clearly unwilling to commit to any serious investment. The wise choice would be to get some 80x bimode units as Hull Trains have done, they would suit GC's routes perfectly.

 

[QSK19]

EMR has already off-leased their 180s as far as I'm aware.

Yes, they indeed went off-lease a few weeks ago.

 

[jh64]

I'm going to respectfully disagree. The cost would be totally unjustified especially for units that are aging and apparently showing signs of rot etc. Plus, DB are clearly unwilling to commit to any serious investment. The wise choice would be to get some 80x bimode units as Hull Trains have done, they would suit GC's routes perfectly.

Would look quite tidy coming out of Sunderland. Smarten the place up a bit!

 

[Trainguy34]

Would look quite tidy coming out of Sunderland. Smarten the place up a bit!

I second that, great photo shop (I assume!)

 

[D365]

Could the class 93 not be used?

No. The Class 180s are not capable of being loco-hauled in regular passenger service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==

Not sure how expensive it would be to convert, already have drivers desk, so more a control system to replace existing that is needed. I don't know if it would be compatible with modern locos, but might even be able to recover equipment from something like mk3 DVT (if any are still available)

Oh gracious. You don't want to go anywhere near TDM in this decade.

 

[Doomotron]

No. The Class 180s are not capable of being loco-hauled in regular passenger service.

The suggestion was to convert them to be (even if it's a silly suggestion anyway), not that they are directly compatible.

 

[Whistler40145]

If the 180s received a complete internal refurbishment and overhaul, where would be the most sensible TOC to receive them?

 

[skyhigh]

If the 180s received a complete internal refurbishment and overhaul, where would be the most sensible TOC to receive them?

Given there are currently only 4 units homeless, I can't imagine anyone would want them even if they were in perfect condition.

 

[lumitumey12345]

Given there are currently only 4 units homeless, I can't imagine anyone would want them even if they were in perfect condition.

Chiltern could possibly take them to replace their mk3 fleet?

 

[QSK19]

If the 180s received a complete internal refurbishment and overhaul, where would be the most sensible TOC to receive them?

Given there are currently only 4 units homeless, I can't imagine anyone would want them even if they were in perfect condition.

Correct. And in any case, the 180s are fundamentally flawed - you could chuck the whole NHS budget at them and do the best internal refurbishment possible, yet it won’t stop the mechanical unreliability of them.

 

[Whistler40145]

Correct. And in any case, the 180s are fundamentally flawed - you could chuck the whole NHS budget at them and do the best internal refurbishment possible, yet it won’t stop the mechanical unreliability of them.

Should they be off to the Scrapyard

 

[QSK19]

Should they be off to the Scrapyard

I’ve got written confirmation from the ROSCO stating that they’re being retained with a view to future lease opportunities. Probably explains why the 5th coach of 180110 was repaired and returned to service even though there were only months left on EMR’s lease.

 

[skyhigh]

Chiltern could possibly take them to replace their mk3 fleet?

As far as I know Chiltern have 5 Mk3 sets. Why they'd want to take on 4 notoriously unreliable units instead I'm unsure.

Should they be off to the Scrapyard

If the lease company decides it's not worth paying to store them, that's where they will go. Until that point 10 sets are still in use with no confirmed replacement so they won't be going anywhere. It's possible the remaining 4 will be broken up for parts/scrap but they're owned by a commercial entity who will do whatever they see fit with them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==

I’ve written confirmation from the ROSCO stating that they’re being retained with a view to future lease opportunities. Probably explains why the 5th coach of 180110 was repaired even though there were only months left on EMR’s lease.

Though there's nothing to say that won't change though. It's also possible that as you were asking for parts as an enthusiast they gave you a polite 'brush off' as their future wasn't decided and it's easier for them just to cart off whole units to Sims if they decide to scrap than try and sell bits and bobs off.

 

[QSK19]

Though there's nothing to say that won't change though. It's also possible that as you were asking for parts as an enthusiast they gave you a polite 'brush off' as their future wasn't decided and it's easier for them just to cart off whole units to Sims if they decide to scrap than try and sell bits and bobs off.

Good point - to be honest, I wasn’t fully convinced by the response for that reason. Oh well, let’s wait and see!

 

[Whistler40145]

Can a TOC refuse to take on the 180s if offered them?

 

[Energy]

Can a TOC refuse to take on the 180s if offered them?

If the TOC is open access they can do what they like.

If its a National Rail Contract TOC being offered by a ROSCO they can write up a business case to the DfT to take them on or say no.

If it was from the DfT to a NRC TOC then usually the DfT would tell a NRC TOC to investigate certain rolling stock, determine how it would fit in with operations and ultimately write up a business case for adding the rolling stock. The Intercity Express Programme forced rolling stock onto TOCs without too much consultation (particularly at FGW/GWR) but the DfT doesn't procure stock that way anymore. Southeastern, Northern and GWR new stock is being done by the TOC's themselves.

 

[warwickshire]

As far as I know Chiltern have 5 Mk3 sets. Why they'd want to take on 4 notoriously unreliable units instead I'm unsure.


If the lease company decides it's not worth paying to store them, that's where they will go. Until that point 10 sets are still in use with no confirmed replacement so they won't be going anywhere. It's possible the remaining 4 will be broken up for parts/scrap but they're owned by a commercial entity who will do whatever they see fit with them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==


Though there's nothing to say that won't change though. It's also possible that as you were asking for parts as an enthusiast they gave you a polite 'brush off' as their future wasn't decided and it's easier for them just to cart off whole units to Sims if they decide to scrap than try and sell bits and bobs off.

Actually Chiltern only has 4 mk3 sets only, ie plug doors. with one set spare, and only x3 in use at one time, mainly during the peak Tuesday to Thursday am only, ie notably the am peak queue buster ex Princess Risborough, the ex Anglia Slam door which should have replaced the original Adrian Shooters mk3 never did, even if it ever did, probably would have finished anyway due to its nature, however covid 19, put paid to it, However to finish the mk3s its possible , that 175 , 180 could go to Chiltern, also possible Chiltern refuse, and DFT even force it upon them to take either one of them . and then goodbye mk3s, to go and then join their Cross Country, counterparts ie ex Hst plug door Mk3s in plug door mk3 scrap heap land.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Southeastern, Northern and GWR new stock is being done by the TOC's themselves.

If they go through, of course we haven't heard anything about these yet, other than that they're drawing up a tender.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As far as I was given to understand, it's not strictly true that there is no confirmed replacement for the grand Central sets, I thought that the voyages were replacing those?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As far as I was given to understand, it's not strictly true that there is no confirmed replacement for the grand Central sets, I thought that the voyages were replacing those?

They're taking two Voyagers initially on a trial basis. If they're a success they'll take more and replace the 180s.