Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?

[Clip]

I wonder how those who work on the railways in Europe (which have a 365 day service) would view some of the comments made by rail staff?

If staff were offered, say triple time or more on Boxing Day I suspect the TOCs who would be overrun with staff wanting to work and sacrificing time with their families.

A bit like drivers who said that for safety reasons they needed an assistant driver to drive a train over 110 mph a few years ago. Drivers then were offered a pay rise and suddenly it was safe for them to drive on their own!!! Everyone has their price.
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Quite of few of those who work just M-F have had a pay freeze for the past 3 years. Imagine that happening in the rail industry?!

What you mean like the pay freeze I had in me last role for 2 years on the trot back in 2007/8 before the economic crisis then again in 2009? And do you know what I done about it? Well I went and got another job that paid me more. Maybe people should try doing that instead.

And no I wouldn't work if they offered me triple time, I done that a few years ago having to man kings x on christmas day and boxing day and the money did not make up for not being with my family.

Plenty of rail staff work over christmas and boxing day and good for them but not me. Well till next year when I'm on call which will be fun won't it.

 

[Monty]

As ANorthernGuard and Flamingo have said it's about our family life and as someone who is going to be a father this time next year I don't see why I should give up seeing my child on what is a very special day to me for the benefit of others.

All this "I pay our wages", "you get paid too much" and" "you should be working xmas day etc" reeks of jealousy of the working conditions that rail staff enjoy. I share GB's sentiments that their attitude would be completely different if the roles were reversed.

 

[455driver]

I wonder how many of the complainers here only work Monday to Friday (weekends optional) and so can spend 104 days a year with their family if they wish but begrudge us rail-staff having 2 days with our families?
Having my days off on Tuesday and Wednesday doesnt give me much time with my family when the kids are at school and the missus is at work but I dont moan about it because I knew what the shifts were when I signed up.

 

[Aictos]

Another thing is though that rail staff and particularly train crews, when the service is severely disrupted like a few weeks back with the fatality that never was, crews stayed on way past their booking off time to make sure ppl got home. They didn't have to, and no doubt if they hadn't passengers would have cursed them till they were blue in the face, this because all ppl were focused on was the fact THEY wanted to get home. I bet none of them spared a thought for the staff that had to work extra like me. I booked off 3 hrs after I was supposed to.

Exactly I booked off 4 hours after I was supposed to recently just to help out to make sure people got home, didn't need to as I could have just gone home.

 

[Oswyntail]

Because it's not allowed. Workers terms and conditions must remain the same (or be improved). New starters can be given a different contract, and this can be offered to existing employees, but they are under no obligation to accept it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUPE

Of course, if the "undertaking" is significantly changed so that it ceases to be the same one, TUPE might not apply (legal minefield!)

Exactly I booked off 4 hours after I was supposed to recently just to help out to make sure people got home, didn't need to as I could have just gone home.

Very laudible, and that is the sort of professionalism that I would expect from anyone I worked with. I have seen the same in bankers, civil servants, NHS staff, sports coaches, teachers, vicars, you name it. Not limited to railway workers. (Though I agree it is an attitude that is dying out)

 

[nedchester]

Very laudible, and that is the sort of professionalism that I would expect from anyone I worked with. I have seen the same in bankers, civil servants, NHS staff, sports coaches, teachers, vicars, you name it. Not limited to railway workers. (Though I agree it is an attitude that is dying out)

Yep been there done that. I would imagine you claimed the overtime though and didn't do it for free though?

 

[A-driver]

Yep been there done that. I would imagine you claimed the overtime though and didn't do it for free though?

And why should anyone do it for free exactly? So that the shareholders can benefit for the extra work the staff are doing?


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[nedchester]

And why should anyone do it for free exactly? So that the shareholders can benefit for the extra work the staff are doing?


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Don't disagree, they should but there's plenty of jobs where staff do extra for free.......not saying it's right but it happens..........

 

[A-driver]

Don't disagree, they should but there's plenty of jobs where staff do extra for free.......not saying it's right but it happens..........

There are-and often to help the business out and the staff will get rewarded for it in the future normally with more flexible time off/working a half day later on if needed, Xmas bonus to say thanks etc. Very few jobs will expect free overtime with nothing at all in it for the employee.

On the railway we don't get any of those things, and if we do overtime it will normally be to avoid cancelling train services left uncovered by managements decision to save money on recruiting enough staff. So it's either pay the fines for cancelling a service or pay staff extra overtime (and paying staff overtime is a fraction of the cost of the fine, normally even if paying the staff double/triple time. )

 

[northwichcat]

As ANorthernGuard and Flamingo have said it's about our family life and as someone who is going to be a father this time next year I don't see why I should give up seeing my child on what is a very special day to me for the benefit of others.

All this "I pay our wages", "you get paid too much" and" "you should be working xmas day etc" reeks of jealousy of the working conditions that rail staff enjoy. I share GB's sentiments that their attitude would be completely different if the roles were reversed.

Christmas Day on the whole doesn't seem to be a day that people are bothered about their being no trains. It's coming up in this thread as a day staff like yourself are saying they don't want to work, opposed to non-staff saying their should be trains operating on that day.

Boxing Day is different though.

The reason Sunday is seen as a day of rest and Christmas Day, Boxing Day, Good Friday and Easter Monday are bank holidays is because traditionally we're a Christian country and people would have seen it as against their religion to work on those days unless they are providing an essential role e.g. the fire service. How many of the people who don't want to work Sundays or religious bank holidays now do it because of their religion? (I'm not just including rail staff in that question.)

In the off-season certain tourist attractions are open Saturday and Sunday and closed some days during the week. Presumably one reason for this is school children can go at the weekend but not during the week. However, if you shut down the rail and bus network at the weekend so that all transport staff have the option of spending time with their families you'd probably reduce patronage at such attractions and increase the number of children with unauthorised school absences.

 

[GB]

Who is talking about shutting the network down at weekends? We are talking about 1 or 2 days a year.

 

[Ferret]

Oswyntail, can you tell me how running trains on Boxing Day is a business opportunity? I'd be fascinated to see you put together a legitimate business case for running a service. I keep an open mind about running local services on Boxing Day, but for it to happen, it has to be financially justifiable.

 

[Oswyntail]

Oswyntail, can you tell me how running trains on Boxing Day is a business opportunity? I'd be fascinated to see you put together a legitimate business case for running a service. I keep an open mind about running local services on Boxing Day, but for it to happen, it has to be financially justifiable.

There are thousands of people travelling for leisure pursuits on Boxing Day, so a proportion of those would use trains naturally. But the opportunity really lies in imaginative use of the day. Make it a loss-leader with, eg, any journey for a quid each way pre-booked (half price on the day?) - get people on to the railway for once to see what is on offer, how the reality is better than the reputation. If it made sense for Chris Green to do this sort of things for NSE, it still makes sense now. Boxing Day would be ideal because the extra traffic would not interfere with regular users.

 

[Dave1987]

There are thousands of people travelling for leisure pursuits on Boxing Day, so a proportion of those would use trains naturally. But the opportunity really lies in imaginative use of the day. Make it a loss-leader with, eg, any journey for a quid each way pre-booked (half price on the day?) - get people on to the railway for once to see what is on offer, how the reality is better than the reputation. If it made sense for Chris Green to do this sort of things for NSE, it still makes sense now. Boxing Day would be ideal because the extra traffic would not interfere with regular users.

Ok so when are NR supposed to carry out major engineering projects then???

 

[Ferret]

It's not realistic to expect trains to operate on Boxing Day as a loss leader. Without a buisness case to show that at the very least, costs will be covered, Boxing Day services will not happen.

 

[455driver]

There are thousands of people travelling for leisure pursuits on Boxing Day, so a proportion of those would use trains naturally. But the opportunity really lies in imaginative use of the day. Make it a loss-leader with, eg, any journey for a quid each way pre-booked (half price on the day?) - get people on to the railway for once to see what is on offer, how the reality is better than the reputation. If it made sense for Chris Green to do this sort of things for NSE, it still makes sense now. Boxing Day would be ideal because the extra traffic would not interfere with regular users.

The railways are already full so why do we want to encourage more people to use them.

I remember when SWT did an "anywhere for a tenner" promotion and I would guess that it put more people off using the trains than it encouraged because all the trains to the coast (it was in summer) were absolutely rammed full and leaving people on the platforms even though they were formed of 10 or 12 coaches.

The railway "businesses" are making enough money without having to bother with any silly promotions on a wheels free engineering day.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ok so when are NR supposed to carry out major engineering projects then???

Do they close every route on the network for engineering? Colton Junction (south of York) was closed this Christmas but what about the rest of the ECML? If it was open then there's no reason why services could have run on that route with a bus shuttle between Doncaster - York.

I agree that any such services should be secondary to the engineering work but I don't accept that a) the whole network is shut down and b) that those shut downs couldn't be avoided with the standard measures.

 

[Harbon 1]

Do they close every route on the network for engineering? Colton Junction (south of York) was closed this Christmas but what about the rest of the ECML? If it was open then there's no reason why services could have run on that route with a bus shuttle between Doncaster - York.

I agree that any such services should be secondary to the engineering work but I don't accept that a) the whole network is shut down and b) that those shut downs couldn't be avoided with the standard measures.

The route my garden backs onto was closed from late Christmas eve, until late boxing day because they were knocking a bridge down over the railway on Christmas day, and cleared it up boxing day.

As for the thread, no there shouldn't be any. It's the day after Christmas, family time. Drivers and railway staff of all positions will have families that want to see them. No one should really want to travel over Christmas anyway. I have to every year and I hate it.

 

[Clip]

Can I just ask some people on this thread if they do not think we railstaff can have 2 days off guaranteed a year?

If not then why not?

 

[northwichcat]

It's not realistic to expect trains to operate on Boxing Day as a loss leader. Without a buisness case to show that at the very least, costs will be covered, Boxing Day services will not happen.

As very few services are required on Boxing Day as a franchise commitment, a Boxing Day service could be run where operators pick and choose the routes that aren't affected by engineering works and would be likely to attract the most passengers. No need to run a poorly timed Helsby-Ellesmere Port train, for instance.

 

[nedchester]

As for the thread, no there shouldn't be any. It's the day after Christmas, family time. Drivers and railway staff of all positions will have families that want to see them. No one should really want to travel over Christmas anyway. I have to every year and I hate it.

There's a certain amount of irony in those last two sentences!

You make it sound as if for 363 days a year rail staff are locked away from their families!!!

How do those who work at airports, hospitals, fire stations, ambulance stations, power stations etc manage to see their families? Maybe doctors should just stop working because it's Christmas?

If as a country we are supposed to be offering a public transport network then it needs to be run when there is demand and I believe there is demand for a limited service on Boxing Day on most major routes.

I don't think it should be treated as a 'normal' day for staff and staff should be rewarded for working the day but there should be a service of some kind.

Incidentally, I am not sure about the viability of services on Christmas Day but Boxing Day should at least be tried by the TOCs.

 

[northwichcat]

Can I just ask some people on this thread if they do not think we railstaff can have 2 days off guaranteed a year?

If not then why not?

I've suggested already on this thread that staff could be offered a better paid contract to include Boxing Day working but they have the option of keeping their existing contract to exclude Boxing Day if they wish. Then with new employees there would need to be a quota of people employed on the new contracts to make sure there are enough staff in work on Boxing Day but some new staff can still be employed on the old contracts.

Every full time employee in every sector is guaranteed at least 28 days off a year. In a lot of cases the minimum is given and it's 20 days you can choose and 8 fixed bank holidays. Why would 27 days you can choose and 1 fixed bank holiday (Christmas Day) be worse? I think some people would prefer the latter.

 

[A-driver]

Doctors do stop working because its Christmas. And on bank holidays and Sundays...but never mind.

Yes, there are a few on call and a few doctors in hospitals obviously but the majority of surgeons, gps and specialists have far more days off than rail staff.

 

[northwichcat]

Doctors do stop working because its Christmas. And on bank holidays and Sundays...but never mind.

Yes, there are a few on call and a few doctors in hospitals obviously but the majority of surgeons, gps and specialists have far more days off than rail staff.

Comparing doctors to train crews is a stupid comparison. Train crews don't go through years of training under their own expense before getting a job and don't have to provide emergency out-of-hours support in the same way.

 

[A-driver]

Comparing doctors to train crews is a stupid comparison. Train crews don't go through years of training under their own expense before getting a job and don't have to provide emergency out-of-hours support in the same way.

I know, and I wasn't comparing them, the poster 'nedchester' I was referring to was.

 

[Ferret]

As very few services are required on Boxing Day as a franchise commitment, a Boxing Day service could be run where operators pick and choose the routes that aren't affected by engineering works and would be likely to attract the most passengers. No need to run a poorly timed Helsby-Ellesmere Port train, for instance.

I totally agree. Local services like a half-hourly Cross City in Brum *might* be justifiable financially. I expect that in the years to come, transport consultants will be asked to examine this in detail to see whether there is sufficient demand to run a service. I remain open minded!

 

[anthony263]

I totally agree. Local services like a half-hourly Cross City in Brum *might* be justifiable financially. I expect that in the years to come, transport consultants will be asked to examine this in detail to see whether there is sufficient demand to run a service. I remain open minded!

I think you may be correct about the crosscity line in Birmingham.

Bristol/Oxford - London Paddington are two routes I think could justify a hourly service on boxing day if staff etc are available and there is no or limited engineering works.

I think a regular service along the West London line would do ok on boxing day considering the new shopping centre at Sheperds bush

 

[Flamingo]

Can I just ask some people on this thread if they do not think we railstaff can have 2 days off guaranteed a year?

If not then why not?

Because some people think we go back to the depot to be plugged into the Mothership until needed again (although to be fair, some managers think that as well )

 

[Dave1987]

The problem is this, at the moment TOC's operate a very limited sunday service. Some TOC's (like mine) you can make yourself unavailable for Sundays, others they have sold off that right to the TOC. I here people already calling for a more extensive service on a Sunday. If a limited Boxing day service was introduced how long before people would be calling for a more extensive service to be introduced?

I agree that any such services should be secondary to the engineering work but I don't accept that a) the whole network is shut down and b) that those shut downs couldn't be avoided with the standard measures.

On GEML, network rail took a posession all weekend for about 10 weekends on the trot on the main line to do extensive and very much needed over head line renewals so bus replacements were put on every weekend. Passengers moaned and moaned and moaned about the bus replacements even though the engineering works had to happen

 

[Harbon 1]

How do those who work at airports, hospitals, fire stations, ambulance stations, power stations etc manage to see their families? Maybe doctors should just stop working because it's Christmas?

They work every other Christmas, and they are vital to our lives (obviously not airports) so need to be open.

If as a country we are supposed to be offering a public transport network then it needs to be run when there is demand and I believe there is demand for a limited service on Boxing Day on most major routes.

I don't think it should be treated as a 'normal' day for staff and staff should be rewarded for working the day but there should be a service of some kind.

Incidentally, I am not sure about the viability of services on Christmas Day but Boxing Day should at least be tried by the TOCs.

I don't see the point of running a boxing day device though. It's not like a normal bank holiday where families will go out for the day. The only services that I would let run at an extreme of maybe 0.5tph on main routes, startin early afternoon, if the figures showed that there is a market for boxing day rail travel. And the staff on that day should be rewarded for it.