Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?

[A-driver]

Perhaps the fact they don't have seperate weekend timetables proves they don't have a service as intensive as us? We don't need all the additional peak services on a sat and sun - they would be wasted. That's why we have the weekend time tables.

I can't see how other European countries can have a network as busy as the uk being that London alone is a far bigger city than many European countries have and therefore has far more rail commuters travelling in and out mon- fri.

 

[radamfi]

Perhaps the fact they don't have seperate weekend timetables proves they don't have a service as intensive as us? We don't need all the additional peak services on a sat and sun - they would be wasted. That's why we have the weekend time tables.

I can't see how other European countries can have a network as busy as the uk being that London alone is a far bigger city than many European countries have and therefore has far more rail commuters travelling in and out mon- fri.

You misunderstand. There are extra rush hour trains outside the UK. Just have a look at the timetables. The extra trains are denoted by an A in a circle (M-F only) or with a cross (not Sunday). However, these trains really are 'extra' as the trains that run on weekends also run on weekdays. The trains that do run 7 days a week are often much longer in length on weekdays. You really need to see a rush hour in places like Rotterdam or Zurich!

Obviously the London commuter area is rather unusual and has no real parallel in Europe. So it is best to compare the rest of the country to what happens outside the UK. But even in the South East, Sunday services are heavily depleted compared to Saturday ones in most areas. No one is complaining about Saturday services. It is Sunday ones that we want improved.

 

[northwichcat]

And the uk does have a 7 day railway.

A 7 day railway doesn't mean trains operating every day of the week. It means the timetable you have on Wednesdays should be exactly the same as Sundays apart from possibly a few services marked as Sundays Excluded. Network Rail have mentioned long term planning for moving towards a 7 day railway in some of their RUS'.

Having Southport - Manchester Piccadilly services go to the Airport Monday-Saturday and to Hazel Grove or Chester via Stockport on Sundays is certainly not a 7 day railway.
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No one is complaining about Saturday services. It is Sunday ones that we want improved.

Maybe not in this thread but passengers being unable to board Northern services on Saturdays because they are too full does need improvements being made.

Example mentioned here: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2012/12/02/trains-swamped-passengers-unable-to-board/ (Just as a note the picture there is after the train has started to empty out before someone says it's not full.)

I think peak time extras could be run on a Saturday outside Greater London but to different timings e.g. the morning peak being 09:30-12:30 on Saturday instead of 06:30-09:30 like Mon-Fri.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to throw into the mix, Christmas Day and Boxing Day are the only two Bank Holidays that the railway recognises, or that we receive as days off. All other Bank Holidays are ordinary working days for the railways, no extra time of in lieu or extra pay for working them (unlike most other industries, including all those mentioned where staff have to work Christmas and Boxing Day).

But, we all knew that as well when we signed up.

Lets see how many threads there are over Easter saying "Why are trains running on the Bank Holidays, and everybody is at work on the railways?"

 

[Dave1987]

A 7 day railway doesn't mean trains operating every day of the week. It means the timetable you have on Wednesdays should be exactly the same as Sundays apart from possibly a few services marked as Sundays Excluded. Network Rail have mentioned long term planning for moving towards a 7 day railway in some of their RUS'.

Having Southport - Manchester Piccadilly services go to the Airport Monday-Saturday and to Hazel Grove or Chester via Stockport on Sundays is certainly not a 7 day railway.
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Maybe not in this thread but passengers being unable to board Northern services on Saturdays because they are too full does need improvements being made.

Example mentioned here: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/2012/12/02/trains-swamped-passengers-unable-to-board/ (Just as a note the picture there is after the train has started to empty out before someone says it's not full.)

I think peak time extras could be run on a Saturday outside Greater London but to different timings e.g. the morning peak being 09:30-12:30 on Saturday instead of 06:30-09:30 like Mon-Fri.

So people want a full weekday service on a sunday? I thought sunday was supposed to be a day of rest lol. A full sunday service would mean most rail staff would never get to see their families. We run with about a 1/3 of staff compared to weekdays. Also maintenance costs would increase as the mileage of all the extra trains would be more. Plus Im not convinced the demand is there for a full service on a sunday. Plus I dont think ASLEF would allow it thank god.

With regards to those who have to work sundays, I bet that condition was sold to your TOC for a pay increase at some point. We still have quite good conditions

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Just to throw into the mix, Christmas Day and Boxing Day are the only two Bank Holidays that the railway recognises, or that we receive as days off. All other Bank Holidays are ordinary working days for the railways, no extra time of in lieu or extra pay for working them (unlike most other industries, including all those mentioned where staff have to work Christmas and Boxing Day).

But, we all knew that as well when we signed up.

Exactly, certain things we accept, like no bank holidays etc

and certain things we don't, Xmas & Boxing Day

That's what caused the 2010 dispute

But we are all selfish blah blah so and so's

no matter what job we sign up for we all know what we get and what we don't

on the railway we don't get Bank Holidays but we do get Xmas days and Bank Holidays

according to a few people here we shouldn't get anything


well thats tough

you pay me a decent enough payday to give up my Xmas day and Boxing day I will think about it


Until then, deal with it and move on

we are subject to the terms and conditions of our contracts


you want to tear those contracts up you will see the railway system shut down for at least a year (recruitment, training etc etc)

as has already been shown getting on the railway in safety critical roles is not easy to say the least as a few members have found out (successfully and not)

it takes a minimum of 3 months to train a guard

a minimum of 6-9 to train a driver

we all know what contracts we sign

complaining and whining will not change that

If the TOC's wanted to run trains on those 2 days there would have been discussion many moons ago

In the majority of TOC's do NOT WANT to run trains those 2 days (not cost effective)

Lets move on as the way things are going shopping wise more and more sales are being done online and the trend for shoppers going out on Boxing day will soon reach a plateau (IMHO) of course

and lets face it, is a 24/7 365 days per year society really that advantageous to the many or just a very small minority?

I know the opposing viewpoints will never see eye to eye but this is my opinion and I stand by it.

 

[radamfi]

So people want a full weekday service on a sunday?

Again, a misunderstanding. No one is expecting a full weekday service on Sunday. For long distance services and fast services, I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for at a similar frequency 7 days a week. That can usually be accommodated in most of Europe by running fewer coaches on Sunday if demand is lower. But demand on long distance trains is actually quite robust on any day of the week. Obviously in the UK outside the SE we are already running short trains on weekdays!

Local trains do tend to run at roughly half frequency in mainland Europe on Sunday, say half hourly instead of every 15 minutes, or hourly instead of every 30 minutes. But the trains that do run tend to connect into the fast services in a similar way that they do during the week. Trains that do run hourly in the week tend to keep the hourly frequency on Sunday.
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Lets move on as the way things are going shopping wise more and more sales are being done online and the trend for shoppers going out on Boxing day will soon reach a plateau (IMHO) of course

How many times does it need to be explained that shopping is nothing to do with it?

 

[EM2]

How many times does it need to be explained that shopping is nothing to do with it?

Surely shopping is almost everything to do with it? There haven't been regular Boxing Day services in England & Wales since 1964. The biggest thing that has changed in that time is an increase in the number of shops opening, so it follows that the main driver for the introduction of a service is shopping.
And while we're at it, why not have the buses running everywhere too?

 

[radamfi]

Surely shopping is almost everything to do with it? There haven't been regular Boxing Day services in England & Wales since 1964. The biggest thing that has changed in that time is an increase in the number of shops opening, so it follows that the main driver for the introduction of a service is shopping.
And while we're at it, why not have the buses running everywhere too?

But most people who are travelling, not only on Boxing Day, but also on Christmas Day and Sundays, are doing so for other reasons than shopping. Most people are visiting friends and family.

Sunday bus services in the UK outside London were much better in the 1980s than they are now, despite shops not opening on Sundays until 1994. Sunday shopping is far less common in places like Germany and the Netherlands than it is here, yet they run a proper train and bus service on Sunday.

 

[EM2]

But most people who are travelling, not only on Boxing Day, but also on Christmas Day and Sundays, are doing so for other reasons than shopping. Most people are visiting friends and family.

Which they have been doing quite easily without trains. So why do we need them to run?

Sunday bus services in the UK outside London were much better in the 1980s than they are now, despite shops not opening on Sundays until 1994. Sunday shopping is far less common in places like Germany and the Netherlands than it is here, yet they run a proper train and bus service on Sunday.

The lower frequency of Sunday buses is almost certainly linked to the increase in car ownership.

 

[neilmc]

Stagecoach Manchester were running a 20-minute frequency on many routes, and a 10 minute frequency on the very busiest, on Boxing Day so clearly there were plenty of people wishing to travel.

 

[Flamingo]

Do intercity coaches and taxi's operate on Boxing Day?

I run a car, it costs me a few hundred pounds a month all told to do so. I pay that expense so as I have the flexibility to make journies when public transport is not suitable.

If people chose not to pay that expense (or for whatever reason do not drive), well, taxi's are available. These are the only two days of the year that they will have to factor that extra expense into their spending, which is not unreasonable IMHO. I have to factor car costs into every day's expenditure.

 

[radamfi]

Which they have been doing quite easily without trains. So why do we need them to run?

Obviously a lot of people are driving because there are no trains and a lot of people without access to a car would like to visit friends or family but are unable to do so. You might as well say there is no point running trains on any day as most people get around without them.

The lower frequency of Sunday buses is almost certainly linked to the increase in car ownership.

The point is, what was the point in running Sunday buses in the 1980s when there were no shops open?
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Do intercity coaches and taxi's operate on Boxing Day?

National Express and Megabus run a near normal service on Boxing Day. I have regularly used them on Boxing Day over the years.

 

[Flamingo]

National Express and Megabus run a near normal service on Boxing Day. I have regularly used them on Boxing Day over the years.

So people do have an option for long journeys that are essential even if they don't drive, then? Well, that's a lot of the arguments on this thread cut to ribbons! (Thanks for the info, BTW )
Sorry, my ever so small pool of sympathy is shrinking rapidly!

 

[radamfi]

So people do have an option for long journeys that are essential even if they don't drive, then? Well, that's a lot of the arguments on this thread cut to ribbons! (Thanks for the info, BTW )
Sorry, my ever so small pool of sympathy is shrinking rapidly!

Obviously the coach network is far more limited than the train network. I have been lucky in the past that National Express happen to run where I wanted to go.

Surely we are all in the business of wanting to get cars off the road? That is the main reason why trains exist. It is not just a social service for those without cars.

 

[Flamingo]

Obviously the coach network is far more limited than the train network. I have been lucky in the past that National Express happen to run where I wanted to go.

Surely we are all in the business of wanting to get cars off the road? That is the main reason why trains exist. It is not just a social service for those without cars.

I don't think that the railways are in the business of getting cars off the road any more than any other mode of transport is (and what is inherently wrong about cars being on roads anyway?). My understanding is that the railways are there as an alternative form of transport for people to chose given their needs and options, and they are in the business of turning a profit for their shareholders.

Trains existed a long time before cars.

 

[radamfi]

I don't think that the railways are in the business of getting cars off the road any more than any other mode of transport is. My understanding is that the railways are there as an alternative form of transport for people to chose given their needs and options, and they are in the business of turning a profit for their shareholders.

Trains existed a long time before cars.

But now we have a very serious problem with congestion and the environment. That is why we need to cut down on car usage and trains are an important means to do that. Surely this has been widely known for a long time?

 

[Flamingo]

If it was a major policy for any government, I think there would be larger subsidy of rail travel to decrease fares further, much more rolling stock, and far greater investment in the railway as a whole, paid for by punitive taxation on all aspects of car ownership.

As it stands, none of this is happening (fuel multiplier notwithstanding, which is just there to encourage people to buy more fuel-efficient cars) which makes me believe that there is de facto, no such policy.

It might be an ambition of certain people, but that does not make it real.

 

[Oswyntail]

... My understanding is that the railways are there as an alternative form of transport for people to chose given their needs and options......

And, to be successful in that, they need to provide a service that is more desirable than the alternatives, like any service industry. That means competitive on comfort, frequency and price, as well as speed and predictability. So, is the industry providing comfort, frequency and price levels that at least make the combination with speed and predictability a winner over the alternatives? Occasionally yes, more often no

... they are in the business of turning a profit for their shareholders......

The chosen strategy appears to be, for some TOCs at least, to keep all other factors at a minimum and keep pricing just below the tipping point where sales fall and remove profits. This is unsustainable in the long-term, and, more dangerously, the position of the tipping point is variable and unpredictable. What this, and many other threads, is really about is what policies can be adopted to protect the profits by restructuring the balance of priorities.

 

[anthony263]

Megabus run 4 return trips between Cardiff & London on christmas day calling at Newport, Bristol city Centre and at least 1 trip in each direction calls additionally at Swindon.

I think they also run 2 return trips between Cheltenham & London on christmas day as well.

National express dont run between South wales and London on christmas day.

Megabus are supposed to be looking at running the Cardiff - Sunderland service on christmas day next year subject to there being enough drivers.

Stagecoach did run 3 return trips on service X4 Between Merthyr Tydfil and Abergavenny on christmas day and Boxing day this year I am told and the same person did tell me there were problems on boxing day as a simline Optare solo was used compared to the large Volvo's that normally work the route.

Cardiff Bus ran a few services on boxing day which were very well used in fact some overcrowding was reported and Newport bus were supposed to be operating a limited service on some routes.

Personally I can see more bus services running on boxing day and in fact with St Davids 2 being open now I wouldnt be surprised to see at least an hourly service on route X4 Between Merthyr Tydfil and Cardiff on boxing day.

 

[455driver]

Yeah I agree. Xmas and Boxing and perhaps New Years Day as well should carry the right to refuse work and if you want to work; be suitably paid for it, at least double and probably should be triple time.

I get Christmas day and Boxing day off because I am not required to work in my contract but will be working New Years Eve and New Years Day for flat money (which is what I get for any bank holidays I am rostered to work) as I am required to work in my contract.
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Luckily I Can

I cant!
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Lets see how many threads there are over Easter saying "Why are trains running on the Bank Holidays, and everybody is at work on the railways?"

Stop it, I just suffered a keyboard/ alcoholic drink interface problem!

 

[Flamingo]

And, to be successful in that, they need to provide a service that is more desirable than the alternatives, like any service industry.

Well, given the passenger numbers I see, I would hate to think the numbers we would have to cope with on a successful railway, if this is an unsuccessful one!

 

[radamfi]

Well, given the passenger numbers I see, I would hate to think the numbers we would have to cope with on a successful railway, if this is an unsuccessful one!

Apart from trains to London, the capacity is artificially restricted with short trains and outdated infrastructure. You need to compare the distance travelled by rail per capita for rail passengers outside the SE with those in say, Switzerland or Germany. That makes the UK rail network look very under-utilised.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Can you post such figures? Both nationally and for the Swiss and German regional equivalents of our south east.

 

[Oscar]

Swiss facts and figures:
Average occupancy of Swiss trains overall: c. 30%
Average occupancy of Swiss regional trains: c. 18%
Modal share passenger traffic: c. 17%
Modal share freight traffic: c. 39%
Railways have highest modal share in the world
Million passenger km / year: 14 560 (2007; SBB estimate), predicted 23 150 (2030)
Central government pays 2 bn CHF annual subsidy for services and infrastructure maintenance, cantons pay local railways 250 million annual subsidy
(Source: SBB)
Urban transport also heavily subsidised
Population of Switzerland: around 8 million

Switzerland also has a serious problem with capacity: long trains and frequent trains are required in the peak and not at other times. Peak pricing is being considered.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Surely shopping is almost everything to do with it? There haven't been regular Boxing Day services in England & Wales since 1964. The biggest thing that has changed in that time is an increase in the number of shops opening, so it follows that the main driver for the introduction of a service is shopping.
And while we're at it, why not have the buses running everywhere too?

Exactly, if the shops were mainly closed on boxing day then this debate would have been finished on page 2.
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But most people who are travelling, not only on Boxing Day, but also on Christmas Day and Sundays, are doing so for other reasons than shopping. Most people are visiting friends and family.

Sunday bus services in the UK outside London were much better in the 1980s than they are now, despite shops not opening on Sundays until 1994. Sunday shopping is far less common in places like Germany and the Netherlands than it is here, yet they run a proper train and bus service on Sunday.

In Manchester most bus services are superb and there is also the metro link and actually most people travelling are shopping, you only have to see the number of bags to see that.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly, if the shops were mainly closed on boxing day then this debate would have been finished on page 2.

Not exactly.

How many passengers do the Saturday Old Trafford match day shuttles usually carry? There's the potential to carry a similar number on Boxing Day.

Also as some people return to work on 27th December an evening service on the 26th to get them back to their home area is another area for consideration.

In Manchester most bus services are superb and there is also the metro link and actually most people travelling are shopping, you only have to see the number of bags to see that.

The problem is that doesn't cover every area. Knutsford is seen as being in the Manchester commuter belt and gets plenty of residents who out in Manchester or go shopping in Manchester. Yet if there's no train to Manchester or a Sunday or Bank Holiday then there's no alternative option for getting to Manchester involving only public transport.
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So people want a full weekday service on a sunday?

That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying having a service on Sunday is not the same as a 7 day railway.

From my local station the Mon-Fri departures towards Stockport are:
* Manchester Piccadilly via Stockport: 06:46, 07:41, 08:49 then hourly until 20:49, 22:15, 23:29
* Stockport only: 07:17, 08:17

Saturday is almost the same except the 07:17 and 08:17 trains for Stockport don't run and the last train is 1 minute later. So for practical purposes that's the same timetable with 3 services SX and 1 service SO.

However, on Sunday the departures are:
* Southport via Manchester Piccadilly: 09:41, 11:49 then every 2 hours until 19:49
* Wigan Wallgate via Manchester Piccadilly: 21:49

That's a completely different timetable.

So what we have is really a 6 day railway not a 7 day railway. If it was a 7 day railway the Sunday departures times and final destinations would be the same as on the other days.

 

[A-driver]

So make Sundays the same as weekdays and then in a few years time we can have a thread on here about how much money the railway is wasting in staffing and running costs by running a weekday service on a Sunday with a small fraction of the number of passengers paying for it. Then they can talk about cutting it back and anger passenger groups and unions.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that if we were starting from scratch, the most sensible solution would be to have a weekday service geared towards peak commuting travel, and a weekend service, the same for Saturday and Sunday aimed at leisure travel.

If I recall correctly, the McNulty report highlighted overcrowding on a lot of Sunday InterCity services, although rather than recognising this as being a natural state of affairs as people get home for the start of the working week, his solution was to price people off of these services

 

[northwichcat]

So make Sundays the same as weekdays and then in a few years time we can have a thread on here about how much money the railway is wasting in staffing and running costs by running a weekday service on a Sunday with a small fraction of the number of passengers paying for it. Then they can talk about cutting it back and anger passenger groups and unions.

A 7 day railway does not mean you can't have Sunday Excluded services.

One Northern Rail line which had a 3 hourly Sunday service and had the service improved to 2 hourly saw Sunday passenger figures become 400% of what they had been previously. If a 50% increase in frequency can result in 4 times more passengers then it sounds like the low Sunday frequency is the only reason for people not travelling by rail more on Sundays.