a)The railways are not already full b)TOCs are trying hard to fill the off-peak seats and c) I cannot think of any business with a philosophy of "we are making enough money so let's stop trying"
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?
- Thread starter Dave1987
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Airports are a completely different argument as they are dealing with transport from other areas of the world with different cultures and calendars which won't all see Xmas as a big festival. Railways are entirely internal and so recognise major uk holidays.
Could you at least explain why it is not realistic - loss leading is standard in most businesses, and the statistics gained could be a real help to the business.
I think you are mis understanding the point. The railway isn't like any other business which needs to attract customers. In fact the railways couldn't do much more at the moment to put customers off but the trains are still very well used. Do you think that most rail users do it out of choice? Choose to spend 1/3 of their salary on a service which is very often late, overcrowded etc, the thing is that they don't have any choice. TOCs don't need to listen to the customer as they know they will always be there as, on commuter lines anyway, there is no alternative.
Put simply, the railways eat Government subsidy as it is. Why throw yet more money, just to prove a point?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
It seems to work with Virgin. The Advance tickets for Manchester-London that are cheaper than the standard Manchester-Liverpool single must be a loss leader with the expensive peak time fares that some business users are forced in to paying subsiding them.
For a start, relatively few lines (outside the SE) are purely commuter lines. And, if you start down that route, you end up with Serpell.
And if Government subsidy is cut back (probably because the TOCs are not listening to customers:roll
?IMHO, a big issue with the industry, not just on the matter of Boxing Day, but in the whole question of service provision is that there is too much thinking along the lines of "It has always been like that, therefore there is no need to change". Sadly, the real world does change, and leaves dinosaurs stuck in their bitumen pits.
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
Either the railway is like other businesses or not. If it is, then it would not run half the trains it does, as they are probably not near the break-even point. Also, a huge number of businesses do NOT operate on Boxing Day.
There are alternatives for travel on Boxing Day - we have already established that. If TOC's chose not to operate, well, that is their prerogative as private companies. If the Government wants trains to run on Boxing Day, well, they can increase the subsidy accordingly, or the TOC's can charge an appropriate fare. That's what happens in business.
The bottom line is that TOC's are not looking to operate on Boxing Day. It's not staff are refusing to, they are not being asked to. What is so difficult about that, that some people can't grasp the concept?
There are alternatives for travel on Boxing Day - we have already established that. If TOC's chose not to operate, well, that is their prerogative as private companies. If the Government wants trains to run on Boxing Day, well, they can increase the subsidy accordingly, or the TOC's can charge an appropriate fare. That's what happens in business.
The bottom line is that TOC's are not looking to operate on Boxing Day. It's not staff are refusing to, they are not being asked to. What is so difficult about that, that some people can't grasp the concept?
People love a good chance to have a go at rail staff-after all we are all over paid, greedy, lazy and uncaring unionists who would be better off replaced by machines apparently.
We can explain as many times as we like that this has nothing to do with staffing but as it dosnt fit in with several posters agendas they choose not to listen!
Give it 10-11 months and this exact same argument will start up again.
We can explain as many times as we like that this has nothing to do with staffing but as it dosnt fit in with several posters agendas they choose not to listen!
Give it 10-11 months and this exact same argument will start up again.
Flamingo
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 6,806
Well, if you really want TOC's to look for a new business model, they could copy the one that has resulted in a small regional airline becoming the largest and most profitable in Europe, increasing revenue and passenger numbers year-on-year despite there being a recession.
Say what you like about Ryanair, their model works from a shareholder point of view, and people keep using them so they must be good.
So be careful what you wish for...
I totally agree with this. If you leave 1 min late passengers moan because you are late, yet a person who turns up on the platform just after you have closed the doors to leave on time then complains why didnt you let them on. Just like when you make loads of announcements about why you are delayed or that the train will be dividing please travel in the front 4 coaches etc etc, then the person who had their earphones in or were asleep then complains that they didnt hear any announcements so you couldn't possibly have made any. Like when people complain how grubby the seats are yet they are perfectly happy to put their feet on them to make them grubby. ARGGHH!!
Anyway rant over
When you work on the railway you realise that all people really want to do is moan about something. If something isn't how they want it to be as a convenience to them i.e trains running on Boxing Day, intercity trains not stopping at their station, trains not running late enough etc they will complain. TOC's do their best to facilitate the travel needs of the majority within a reasonable budget.
Has anyone tried it? What would the equivalent be on rail? Ryanair are competing against other airlines as well as other modes, something not generally happening on rail, so what market would be the target? Has anyone in the industry thought that radically, even if only to dismiss the thought?
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Perhaps not quite along the right lines, but have you seen the amount of moaning people do about London Midland 350s on Crewe-Euston services? No frills service at no fills prices and people still love a good moan.
Exactly people expect the low advanced fare from Birmingham to London, but also expect the comfy seats, free wifi, and power sockets. Its a something for nothing culture nowadays in everything!!
In all honesty you probably could run some services as people would work them but the costs would be extortionate. Not only for the crews to run them but also the delay in engineering works.
I know a few lads who do p-way work and over the christmas period they get paid very well for it. Take that away to provide a rail service and you take away their money too. Which isn't fair to them either.
I know a few lads who do p-way work and over the christmas period they get paid very well for it. Take that away to provide a rail service and you take away their money too. Which isn't fair to them either.
Neither do most doctors!
Ours is covered by a locum because when our doctor signed his new contract he stated he would not do out of hours or house calls, not bad when he takes home a (high) six figure salary.
Last edited:
And if Government subsidy is cut back (probably because the TOCs are not listening to customers:roll
IMHO, a big issue with the industry, not just on the matter of Boxing Day, but in the whole question of service provision is that there is too much thinking along the lines of "It has always been like that, therefore there is no need to change". Sadly, the real world does change, and leaves dinosaurs stuck in their bitumen pits.
Government subsidy will be cut back because of the profligacy of the last Government, the party that likes to talk about Keynesian fiscal policy, but weren't so keen on the bit about what you do when your economy is growing. We live in times where we cannot afford certain niceties, so if it's not financially viable to operate on Boxing Day, then the railways don't.
Also, to the person who says Advance fares are loss leaders - well, that's not as such true! Owing to the ridiculous ORCATS system of distrubuting revenue, companies like XC will do far better financially out of an Advance fare than they will with an interavailable SOR.
Anyway, I digress. I'd like to put Oswyntail on the spot again! I want to know whether you and everyone else is confident that there is actually demand for a Boxing Day service. Has anyone done any actual research on this that we know of? Or is it that it's a vocal minority, boosted by bored newspaper editors who (let's face it), delight in giving the railways a good shoeing?!
Since all of the other bank holidays, with the exception of Christmas (which doesn't have a train service anyway, so we can't know in that case), have enough demand to justify a train service, perhaps it should be up to those who claim that there wouldn't be any demand on boxing day, to justify why they think that would be the case !
I'd agree, were it not for the fact that we have a status quo that won't change unless somebody puts together a business case showing that it would at least be an enterprise that broke even!
I suspect that might be difficult as strictly speaking I'm not sure the railway could be described as breaking even on any day !
My suspicion is that it's more down to a lack of a requirement for Boxing day services in franchise agreements rather than lack of demand, or lack of staff willing to volunteer.
Ultimately railways are a business. If there was money to be made and it was possible, they'd do it...
Indeed - if the customer was willing to pay for it (that's customer as in the Government specifying the service BTW not the passenger
)
Harlesden
Member
The problem with providing even a limited service on Boxing Day is connections - whether with other trains or with road transport. People will not travel unless they are sure of actually being able to reach their final destination.
One cannot expect minor lines with a normal frequency of one train per hour or less to be operating on Boxing Day (example from my own experience is EMT's Newark-Grimsby service). Many provincial towns have no bus or coach service on Boxing Day.
You cannot really run even an hourly or two-hourly stopping service on the ECML, for example, because people will not travel if there is no way of continuing their journey from the nearest ECML station.
There could well be a demand for LOCAL services in and around major cities, but I don't really expect to see Boxing Day mainline services during my lifetime. The staff involved in such a service would be entitled to a premium rate of pay for the day and no TOC can afford to take that kind of financial hit simply to be seen to be providing a service which would be little used solely due to the absence of connections.
One cannot expect minor lines with a normal frequency of one train per hour or less to be operating on Boxing Day (example from my own experience is EMT's Newark-Grimsby service). Many provincial towns have no bus or coach service on Boxing Day.
You cannot really run even an hourly or two-hourly stopping service on the ECML, for example, because people will not travel if there is no way of continuing their journey from the nearest ECML station.
There could well be a demand for LOCAL services in and around major cities, but I don't really expect to see Boxing Day mainline services during my lifetime. The staff involved in such a service would be entitled to a premium rate of pay for the day and no TOC can afford to take that kind of financial hit simply to be seen to be providing a service which would be little used solely due to the absence of connections.
Dont confuse good with cheap, people use Ryanair because they are very cheap and boy do you get what you pay for!
I did hear a rumour from a bloke down the pub that Ryanair are going to put a coin operated meter on the emergency air supply, well somebody has got to pay to replenish the system after it has been used!
I believe there would be demand, you believe there wouldn't, but we are both relying on soothsaying, to be honest. My basic point is that we don't really know because the railway industry is hidebound by the status quo, and will not even do the research to show whether demand is there or not (I do not imagine that, if the research had been done and showed no demand, the industry would be slow to quote it). Engineering, costs and staff Ts&Cs are problems, but relatively small and addressable with a modicum of will.
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
You really think because it's Christmas there is no surgical or specialist cover? As an aside to the senior doctors who will, undoubtably, still be working Christmas, there will also be others on call.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
A-driver seems to acknowledge that there would be some specialist/surgical cover
Of course there will be emergancy cover as I pointed to in my post.
But the vast majority will be off-try making an appointment with your gp or getting a routine operation or specialist appointment for the 26th December. It won't happen as is the case for any bank holiday or weekend.
But the vast majority will be off-try making an appointment with your gp or getting a routine operation or specialist appointment for the 26th December. It won't happen as is the case for any bank holiday or weekend.
- Status