Booming usage on Cambrian lines

[cymro inside]

the one is was thinking of only ran for one summer sometime around 1986-1990
but i cant remember which year

 

[merlodlliw]

Hers a January letter from the Minister about Cambrian Hourly.

As to the 2 extra units thing ;

• If the service is Shrewsbury to Aber only it won't work due to marginal turnaround times.
• If it combines/detaches with existing Holyhead to BHM INTL service it would work.
• If it combined with existing Crewe to Shrewsbury shuttle it would work.

His letter to fellow A.Ms does not fill me with total enthusiasm, the cost,the cost etc. After almost 6 weeks after the letter, not a mention, now If Ieuan Wyn Jones was an A.M on the line(unlikely Plaid in Montgomery) he may be more upbeat, I hope the local A.Ms are pushing him,but the sitting member for Montgomery does not enthuse me.

I don't in my opinion now see any money on the table from WAG before the elections , and ATW have stated they wont run an hourly service unless some one pays for it.
So no hourly service this year. Hope I am wrong but I have seen too many Ministerial letters like this.

Bob

 

[TDK]

His letter to fellow A.Ms does not fill me with total enthusiasm, the cost,the cost etc. After almost 6 weeks after the letter, not a mention, now If Ieuan Wyn Jones was an A.M on the line(unlikely Plaid in Montgomery) he may be more upbeat, I hope the local A.Ms are pushing him,but the sitting member for Montgomery does not enthuse me.

I don't in my opinion now see any money on the table from WAG before the elections , and ATW have stated they wont run an hourly service unless some one pays for it.
So no hourly service this year. Hope I am wrong but I have seen too many Ministerial letters like this.

Bob

If there was a good business plan for the hourly service with profit ATW would run it, obviously ATW have done their sums and obviously there isn't any profit in it so they won't run it without funding, I don't blame them to be honest and I can't see it being run unless ATW are told they have to do it, if an hourly service is not in their Franchise agreement they will decline obviously.

 

[merlodlliw]

If there was a good business plan for the hourly service with profit ATW would run it, obviously ATW have done their sums and obviously there isn't any profit in it so they won't run it without funding, I don't blame them to be honest and I can't see it being run unless ATW are told they have to do it, if an hourly service is not in their Franchise agreement they will decline obviously.

Correct,ATW have done the sums.
Extra Staff,line access,diesel,stock etc , ATW took on the franchise with no growth, If the Statutory bodies wont pay,ATW as a private Company certainly wont. The only pro for the extra service is, no travelling fitter is required this time to sit in the trains. Bad news this Ministers letter,

Bob

 

[tbtc]

In fairness to ATW, its not like there's a lot of spare stock siting round suitable for the Cambrian line (especially given the ERTMS issue). If there were spare 158s then there are other places in the country (Liverpool - Nottingham, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Manchester - Chester etc) where they would be in demand too.

Hopefully the next franchise will sort this out and the winning bidder will start the ordering process before they start running the franchise, to ensure a decent timetable for running additional/new stock.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hopefully the next franchise will sort this out and the winning bidder will start the ordering process before they start running the franchise, to ensure a decent timetable for running additional/new stock.[/QUOTE]

Theirs lots of talk about getting the next franchise right but that's 7 years and 10 months off yet for us! In the meantime....

Also bare in mind that WAG have paid to have the Welshpool Dynamic Loop and Dyfi Junction loop work done. So if there's no extra trains what was the point of spending all that public money?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hopefully the next franchise will sort this out and the winning bidder will start the ordering process before they start running the franchise, to ensure a decent timetable for running additional/new stock.

Theirs lots of talk about getting the next franchise right but that's 7 years and 10 months off yet for us! In the meantime....

Also bare in mind that WAG have paid to have the Welshpool Dynamic Loop and Dyfi Junction loop work done. So if there's no extra trains what was the point of spending all that public money?[/QUOTE]


re- resourcing it- it can come from within franchise because theirs less need for 158's to substitute for 175 diagrams now compared to a few years back and ATW will get its sub leased 150/2 's back from FGW when the 172 cascade kicks in meaning it can pull the 158's off Maesteg to Chletenham turns. Though theirs a strong belief that ATW quoted "additional leasing costs" to WAG.

 

[merlodlliw]

Quote
Theirs lots of talk about getting the next franchise right but that's 7 years and 10 months off yet for us! In the meantime....

Also bare in mind that WAG have paid to have the Welshpool Dynamic Loop and Dyfi Junction loop work done. So if there's no extra trains what was the point of spending all that public money?[/QUOTE] ends
.................................................................................
I agree what is the use of spending all this Public Money at Welshpool and the Junction, if nothing occurs for another 8 years, but its typical Statutory thinking of spending on capitol projects without the resources to run the project.

As for the next franchise, at least it wont be headless wonders at the DFT or whatever it will be called in 2019 that make the decision behind closed doors
without any consultation or come back, WAG was sold a pup when it took over the Wales & Borders franchise, too keen to get it in Cardiff without reading the smallprint, Any PLC taking on a contract for 15 years like Arriva with no growth is questionable, DFT inventing the franchise with no growth is obscene, in the real world of business no growth for 15 years usually ends with the Company going bust.

The only possible other funders besides WAG are the County Councils where the line operates,Salop/Powys & Ceredigion, they have seen Anglesey get two express trains and a aircraft link to Cardiff without spending a penny, so why should they pay out,not that they have cash to subsidise an hourly service.



My opinion of course.

Bob

 

[steamybrian]

From my calculations I have found it impossible to compile an hourly timetable between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth with the infrastructure that I understand has provided considering the following-
The existing tight turnround of Cambrian Trains at Aberystwyth of 5 mins or less which is rather ambitious for long distance trains coming from Birmingham.
Long single line section between Dovey Junction and Aberystwyth (single platform) of approx 30mins. As I see it a down train after leaving Dovey Jn would have to travel to Aberystwyth and return to Dovey Jn (a journey time of over one hour ) before another train could be allowed to depart. ERTMS or no ERTMS it cant be done.!
There will be still a long section between Talerddig and Machynlleth of around 25 mins each way which is extremely tight for one up and one down train to occupy to maintain an hourly service.

Perhaps someone can explain how this hourly service been planned with the track layout proposed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

From my calculations I have found it impossible to compile an hourly timetable between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth with the infrastructure that I understand has provided considering the following-
The existing tight turnround of Cambrian Trains at Aberystwyth of 5 mins or less which is rather ambitious for long distance trains coming from Birmingham.
Long single line section between Dovey Junction and Aberystwyth (single platform) of approx 30mins. As I see it a down train after leaving Dovey Jn would have to travel to Aberystwyth and return to Dovey Jn (a journey time of over one hour ) before another train could be allowed to depart. ERTMS or no ERTMS it cant be done.!
There will be still a long section between Talerddig and Machynlleth of around 25 mins each way which is extremely tight for one up and one down train to occupy to maintain an hourly service.

Perhaps someone can explain how this hourly service been planned with the track layout proposed.

In Answer to those points:

Current total journey time including turn around at Aber from Dovey Jnc to Aber and back is 59 minutes. The public 5 minute turn around is in reality far more as theirs a great dollop of charter minutes for trains arriving into Aber (all hail record ppm).

You've overestimated the Talerddig to Mach section time by some margin. Its 18 minutes.

All the new points being put in are designed for 60 mph turnouts not the 15 mph dawdle over the airbags at present this knocks a few minutes off journey times.
Also bear in mind when BR finished the linespeed upgrade in 94 they were scheduling 105 minutes from Shrewsbury to Aber. The current 118 has been padded out to since privatisation.

 

[The Planner]

From my calculations I have found it impossible to compile an hourly timetable between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth with the infrastructure that I understand has provided considering the following-
The existing tight turnround of Cambrian Trains at Aberystwyth of 5 mins or less which is rather ambitious for long distance trains coming from Birmingham.

That's a public timetable fiddle, WTT gets them in 5-6 minutes earlier than that leaving a 10 minute turnaround, it works. Next time anyone travels down there, see how many minutes early you arrive... Its the same with most terminus stations so dont be suprised by it.

Long single line section between Dovey Junction and Aberystwyth (single platform) of approx 30mins. As I see it a down train after leaving Dovey Jn would have to travel to Aberystwyth and return to Dovey Jn (a journey time of over one hour ) before another train could be allowed to depart. ERTMS or no ERTMS it cant be done.!

Yes it can. The up train leaves Aber, arrives into the up end of Dovey Jn, the down train passes on the loop and into the down end of the platform. Remember the fiddle above, 23-24 there, 10 turnaround, 23-24 back, it fits.

There will be still a long section between Talerddig and Machynlleth of around 25 mins each way which is extremely tight for one up and one down train to occupy to maintain an hourly service.

It still works, the down train flies through Talerddig at speed, the up train sits in the loop. It's not 25 minutes between the two, more like 20. No token exchange nonsense remember and 50 minute occupation of a single line isn't horrendous, you worry when it hits 55-56.

Perhaps someone can explain how this hourly service been planned with the track layout proposed.

You are falling into the PTT/WTT trap. The timetable has never been finalised and I still dont believe it would be hourly all day either.

 

[merlodlliw]

The timetable is subjective, I don't see an hourly service all day & evening, my opinion

Like the Borderlands line, after the peak evening run, it reverts to a two hourly slot, I would presume & it as to be presumption now the hourly service would also revert to a two hourly saye after 1800, perhaps with a two hourly between 1300 & 1500 from say Shrewsbury.

I agree with the Planner, I don't see it being two hours all day/evening.

Sunday services are another thing of course on the Cambrian Current on Summer Sundays 2 extra services run ,I am sure these are paid for by some statutory Council.

Gareth as his ears to the ground, but everyone needs to step up the pace in Cambrian land to assist SARPA get extra services, in my opinion the local politicians and dare I say it residents are too quiet, This Minister only reacts when people become a nuisance to him.

Bob

 

[steamybrian]

Thanks for all your comments and I forgot the variation between public and working timetable times which as you mention include hidden recovery time.

 

[merlodlliw]

Announced today £10millions to be spent on road widening between Aberyswyth and Machynlleth this WAG money announced by the Road/Rail Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones from the budget today, seems this the end of the hourly rail aspiration. More political gain in roads.Story on BBC Wales text

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Announced today £10millions to be spent on road widening between Aberyswyth and Machynlleth this WAG money announced by the Road/Rail Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones from the budget today, seems this the end of the hourly rail aspiration. More political gain in roads.Story on BBC Wales text

Bob

I was called by BBC online today the journo seemed to think that an announcement was imminent on the hourly service. He said he had spoken with WAG Transport people earlier. I think he hoped I or SARPA had some more info on the impending announcement. Had to disappoint him and expressed SARPA members concern over lack of progress etc.

Re Dyfi Bends- the money comes out the Capitol budget pot the money for Cambrian Hourly would come from the Revenue budget. The 2 are not mutually dependent as you know Bob you've had nothing from capitol to redouble Wrexham to Chester yet but the revenue budget has coughed up for WAG1 & 2 before they can run via Wrexham. We've had the capitol cough up for our re instated capacity but the revenue lags behind to run the trains.
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I was called by BBC online today the journo seemed to think that an announcement was imminent on the hourly service. He said he had spoken with WAG Transport people earlier. I think he hoped I or SARPA had some more info on the impending announcement. Had to disappoint him and expressed SARPA members concern over lack of progress etc.

Re Dyfi Bends- the money comes out the Capitol budget pot the money for Cambrian Hourly would come from the Revenue budget. The 2 are not mutually dependent as you know Bob you've had nothing from capitol to redouble Wrexham to Chester yet but the revenue budget has coughed up for WAG1 & 2 before they can run via Wrexham. We've had the capitol cough up for our re instated capacity but the revenue lags behind to run the trains.

If anything its potentially bad news for Wrexham to Chester redoubling as "capitol" pot has taken a big cuts hit and that another £10 million out of it. In fact anything stuck in NR's costly and lengthy GRIP process is in trouble as the budgets will get far tighter by the time NR decides how big its quote will be for these schemes. I'm hearing worried noises from down south about Maesteg and Rhymney lines there worried the euro money will go elsewhere as NR is taking for ever to push these schemes through the GRIP process.

 

[fairlie]

Fair play, that road is horrid at Glandyfi and work is needed. Hourly service on the railway is also needed and I hope receives the same attention!

 

[merlodlliw]

I was called by BBC online today the journo seemed to think that an announcement was imminent on the hourly service. He said he had spoken with WAG Transport people earlier. I think he hoped I or SARPA had some more info on the impending announcement. Had to disappoint him and expressed SARPA members concern over lack of progress etc.

Re Dyfi Bends- the money comes out the Capitol budget pot the money for Cambrian Hourly would come from the Revenue budget. The 2 are not mutually dependent as you know Bob you've had nothing from capitol to redouble Wrexham to Chester yet but the revenue budget has coughed up for WAG1 & 2 before they can run via Wrexham. We've had the capitol cough up for our re instated capacity but the revenue lags behind to run the trains.
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If anything its potentially bad news for Wrexham to Chester redoubling as "capitol" pot has taken a big cuts hit and that another £10 million out of it. In fact anything stuck in NR's costly and lengthy GRIP process is in trouble as the budgets will get far tighter by the time NR decides how big its quote will be for these schemes. I'm hearing worried noises from down south about Maesteg and Rhymney lines there worried the euro money will go elsewhere as NR is taking for ever to push these schemes through the GRIP process.

1.The BBC, that's where I picked it up, text on TV.
2.The capitol budget is low now, The Minister announced the money would be carried over for Wrexham & Maesteg, but with all due respect to Planner, the grip processes by National Rail are a shambles, Wrexham/Chester is a year overdue now, its not on, Euro funding is not ring fenced.
3.The revenue budget, paid for Wag 1&2 plus Wagair, the full report should be in the press tomorrow.

It does not look good for the Cambrian hourly, with the Minister raiding £millions for his pet projects out of the revenue budget.Its all unbelievable,
The Cambrian will have the infastructure, but no extra trains.
The Chester Wrexham dont have the infastructure, but could have the trains.

We live in hope and die in Caergwrle, as the local saying goes.




Bob

 

[tbtc]

I'm hearing worried noises from down south about Maesteg and Rhymney lines there worried the euro money will go elsewhere as NR is taking for ever to push these schemes through the GRIP process.

What is proposed for Maesteg and Rhymney?

 

[The Planner]

Maesteg is ½ hourly frequency, can't remember about Rhymney but Id presume a service increase.

 

[tbtc]

Maesteg is ½ hourly frequency, can't remember about Rhymney but Id presume a service increase.

Cheers

 

[Rhydgaled]

From a letter from Ieuan Wyn Jones dated 7th Feb 2011:

my officials are currently discussing timetable and rolling stock options with Arriva Trains Wales. We have funded a project to increase the capacity of the railway infrastructure in order to facilitate an hourly service, and this work has been largely completed. The next step is for Network Rail to complete its ERTMS resignalling project which will allow the new infrastructure that we funded to be commissioned and brought into live operation. As you will be aware, Network Rail has experienced delays in delivering the ERTMS project and now expect to complete by the end of February. I will then consider the case for introducing an hourly daytime service.

Sounds like he is using the non-completion of ERTMS as an excuse for not introducing the hourly service "by 2011" as the National Transport Plan claims. I read on this fourm that ERTMS is supposed to go live tommorow (well, today now, just gone midnight!). Is that still the plan? If so, we might get an anouncment within the next 3-6 weeks (wild guess on my part).

I would hope the hourly service runs throughout the day, from about 07:30 to 19:30 with the present services continuing outside these hours.

Also, from the same letter:

Further additional services west of Swansea are a Priority 1 objective for the regional transport consortia SWWITCH within its Regional Transport Plan. With the exception of Fishguard, any additional services are dependant upon the redoubling of the single track between Gowerton and Loughor which is a current capacity restraint. This is due to be completed by the end of 2012.

Sounds like (A.) capital spending still seems available and (B.) the original date for re-doubeling of 2010, which had slipped to 2013, has now been brought forward slightly again.

The suggested method of using the Holyhead - Birmingham path to allow an hourly Cambrian main line service is the one I expected to be used.

From the timetables, I think 5 sets of 4-car 158 are needed at the moment for the 2-hourly Holyhead - Birmingham service. Therefore I suggested to WAG that the London Midland Birmigham - Shrewsbury could then be extended through to Holyhead instead using:

• A London Midland Turbostar
• 3 sets of Mrk2 Coaches (inc. a DBSO) hauled by a 57 or 47
• and 1 pair of ATW 158s

This would have released 6 to 8 158s, three of which I suggested should be used to provide a 2-hourly Fishguard - Cardiff express (via the Swansea District Line). It is interesting that he accepted that Fishguard services were techniclly possible before the re-doubling, as back when the petition was launched he gave waiting for the re-doubling as his reason for not acting. However my suggestion for how to get the 158s didn't seem to go down well, as this quote (again from the same letter) shows:

There are no current plans, however, for use of locomotive hauled trains apart from the Holyhead – Cardiff express train services

It certainly seems from this that the only passengers he really cares about giving an improved service frequency are those from his constituency, and even then only those wanting to head for Cardiff in the morning, not those wanting to head south in the afternoon/evening (why make the 2nd WAG express in the same direction as the first?!? I liked the idea of a 2nd one until I heard it'd not be going Cardiff -> Holyhead in the morning and back in the afternoon/evening). Without using LHCS, I see no way of obtaining the 3 158s needed for the Fishguard service.

Just how much has the transport capital budget been cut? And why haven't I seen a list of what schemes in the National Transport Plan have had to go because of this cut?

 

[merlodlliw]

From a letter from Ieuan Wyn Jones dated 7th Feb 2011:

Sounds like he is using the non-completion of ERTMS as an excuse for not introducing the hourly service "by 2011" as the National Transport Plan claims. I read on this fourm that ERTMS is supposed to go live tommorow (well, today now, just gone midnight!). Is that still the plan? If so, we might get an anouncment within the next 3-6 weeks (wild guess on my part).

I would hope the hourly service runs throughout the day, from about 07:30 to 19:30 with the present services continuing outside these hours.

Also, from the same letter:
Sounds like (A.) capital spending still seems available and (B.) the original date for re-doubeling of 2010, which had slipped to 2013, has now been brought forward slightly again.

The suggested method of using the Holyhead - Birmingham path to allow an hourly Cambrian main line service is the one I expected to be used.

From the timetables, I think 5 sets of 4-car 158 are needed at the moment for the 2-hourly Holyhead - Birmingham service. Therefore I suggested to WAG that the London Midland Birmigham - Shrewsbury could then be extended through to Holyhead instead using:

• A London Midland Turbostar
• 3 sets of Mrk2 Coaches (inc. a DBSO) hauled by a 57 or 47
• and 1 pair of ATW 158s

This would have released 6 to 8 158s, three of which I suggested should be used to provide a 2-hourly Fishguard - Cardiff express (via the Swansea District Line). It is interesting that he accepted that Fishguard services were techniclly possible before the re-doubling, as back when the petition was launched he gave waiting for the re-doubling as his reason for not acting. However my suggestion for how to get the 158s didn't seem to go down well, as this quote (again from the same letter) shows:
It certainly seems from this that the only passengers he really cares about giving an improved service frequency are those from his constituency, and even then only those wanting to head for Cardiff in the morning, not those wanting to head south in the afternoon/evening (why make the 2nd WAG express in the same direction as the first?!? I liked the idea of a 2nd one until I heard it'd not be going Cardiff -> Holyhead in the morning and back in the afternoon/evening). Without using LHCS, I see no way of obtaining the 3 158s needed for the Fishguard service.

Just how much has the transport capital budget been cut? And why haven't I seen a list of what schemes in the National Transport Plan have had to go because of this cut?

You raise excellent points, but there is no chance of LM stock running into Wales, as it would be out of franchise, ATW would have nothing of this unless WAG paid for hire of stock.

Ieuan Wyn Jones letter dated 11th live in this forum to his A.Ms is less optimistic, agreed late ertms is a good excuse, it was only after massive canvassing we got the Wrexham Double track left on the funding agenda thus carried forward, but that's no guarantee, as hopefully we will have a new Minister from May, but again its all politics.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

Maesteg is ½ hourly frequency, can't remember about Rhymney but Id presume a service increase.

IIRC there is emant to be an increase from hourly to half hourly servicesto/from Rhymney. This is dependent on a new loop at Tir Phil I think.

It certainly seems from this that the only passengers he really cares about giving an improved service frequency are those from his constituency, and even then only those wanting to head for Cardiff in the morning, not those wanting to head south in the afternoon/evening (why make the 2nd WAG express in the same direction as the first?!? I liked the idea of a 2nd one until I heard it'd not be going Cardiff -> Holyhead in the morning and back in the afternoon/evening). Without using LHCS, I see no way of obtaining the 3 158s needed for the Fishguard service.

Just how much has the transport capital budget been cut? And why haven't I seen a list of what schemes in the National Transport Plan have had to go because of this cut?

The last point is a very good question which i would also like to know the answer to!

Ieuan Wyn Jones has done very well for Anglesey, but seems to have forgotten that as Deputy First Minister and leader of Plaid he has more responsibilities than merely acting as a local councillor with a bigger range of powers!

 

[tbtc]

I suggested to WAG that the London Midland Birmigham - Shrewsbury could then be extended through to Holyhead instead

Logical thing would be to give ATW the current Birmingham - Shrewsbury "stopper", allowing just one company on the line from Wolves to Shrewsbury, allowing better integration between services (and potentially allowing the slow service to feed the Holyhead trips if the Cambrian becomes hourly to Birmingham).

The route is out of LM's "core" area (nothing else west of Wolverhampton), and ATW already run over all these lines. Plus there's potential for better integration with local services at Shrewsbury too.

One headache would be the stock to run it. LM run with 170s, ATW have none. Only way to get more 158s would be to send a handful of LM 170s to ScotRail to release an equivalent number of 158s to ATW. Which is a bit more complicated. But not worth giving ATW just a handful of 170s (Maintenance/ driver training/ diagrams/ corridor connections/ spares/ interworking etc).

At the moment the two trains an hour from Birmingham to Shrewsbury aren't spaced that well - the two services arrive in Shrewsbury within four minutes of each other. Giving it all to ATW would make sense (they serve the local stations on Sundays, after all, why not the rest of the week?)

 

[TDK]

Also bare in mind that WAG have paid to have the Welshpool Dynamic Loop and Dyfi Junction loop work done. So if there's no extra trains what was the point of spending all that public money?

WAG have also paid for Gerald and that isn't in the public interest, it seems to me that they really are in a complete mess on what they are spending their money on for the rail industry and they really need to be shaken up a bit
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Logical thing would be to give ATW the current Birmingham - Shrewsbury "stopper", allowing just one company on the line from Wolves to Shrewsbury, allowing better integration between services (and potentially allowing the slow service to feed the Holyhead trips if the Cambrian becomes hourly to Birmingham).

And in turn this would make train crews bases at Shrewsbury who work for LM without jobs unless they switch to ATW, The route from International to Shrewsbury I feel should be run by LM and not ATW as they have the stock, the resourses and this route is not in Wales with ATW being the Welsh franchise and London Midland being the main stay mislands franchise this would certainly free up 158's for the hourly Aber run and more for elsewhere, however ATW would not give this route up without a huge fight as they would loose a large chunk of money, however if WAG are funding ATW it should be for Wales of course.

 

[Greenback]

And in turn this would make train crews bases at Shrewsbury who work for LM without jobs unless they switch to ATW, The route from International to Shrewsbury I feel should be run by LM and not ATW as they have the stock, the resourses and this route is not in Wales with ATW being the Welsh franchise and London Midland being the main stay mislands franchise this would certainly free up 158's for the hourly Aber run and more for elsewhere, however ATW would not give this route up without a huge fight as they would loose a large chunk of money, however if WAG are funding ATW it should be for Wales of course.

I agree TDK. I still can't udnerstand why ATW have to run the Sunday trains that call at stations that should by served by LM, being as the latter as geographically the operator for that area. I mean, I can udnerstand long distance service going through to Birmingham, as that is a major market for Mid Wales customers, but the locla services should be provided by the local TOC.

 

[tbtc]

And in turn this would make train crews bases at Shrewsbury who work for LM without jobs unless they switch to ATW, The route from International to Shrewsbury I feel should be run by LM and not ATW as they have the stock, the resourses and this route is not in Wales with ATW being the Welsh franchise and London Midland being the main stay mislands franchise this would certainly free up 158's for the hourly Aber run and more for elsewhere, however ATW would not give this route up without a huge fight as they would loose a large chunk of money, however if WAG are funding ATW it should be for Wales of course.

I'd transfer the staff/ base/ resources etc, of course.

Despite the efforts of some politicians, national boundaries are an inefficient way of running railways, it seems futile to try to create artificial franchise maps based on them. For example, Scotrail don't serve Lockerbie in Scotland, there's no need for them to do so (Virgin and TPE provide the service). The railways should concentrate on meeting real passenger demand, trying to match resources to where people want to travel, not trying to limit things to political boundaries. The "only ATW should run trains in Wales and ATW shouldn't serve English routes" stuff reflects badly on local politicians.
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I agree TDK. I still can't udnerstand why ATW have to run the Sunday trains that call at stations that should by served by LM, being as the latter as geographically the operator for that area. I mean, I can udnerstand long distance service going through to Birmingham, as that is a major market for Mid Wales customers, but the locla services should be provided by the local TOC.

But why does Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury need two TOCs running trains at badly co-ordinated times (as I say, four minutes apart at Shrewsbury)?

Wouldn't it be better to have one TOC running things, co-ordinating trains, sharing resources, with more incentive to improve services (since they'd get 100% of the ORCATS money)?

ATW already run service wholly within England (Shrewsbury - Crewe stoppers, Crewe - Chester shuttle), after all.

 

[Greenback]

But why does Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury need two TOCs running trains at badly co-ordinated times (as I say, four minutes apart at Shrewsbury)?

Wouldn't it be better to have one TOC running things, co-ordinating trains, sharing resources, with more incentive to improve services (since they'd get 100% of the ORCATS money)?

ATW already run service wholly within England (Shrewsbury - Crewe stoppers, Crewe - Chester shuttle), after all.

I woulkd argue that better co-ordination of services doesn't necessarily require the same TOC! For instance Swansea to Llanelli has departures at xx00 and xx05 some hours, both run by ATW. The reason for this is pathing the slower service behind the faster one, or at least it used to be, until the klatest timetable change.

As TDK says, it's a question of resources. Shrewsbury - Crewe does link up two places that are already importnat parts of the ATW network, both are train crew depots unless I am mistaken. It's the same with Chester - Crewe. I'm approaching things from the perspective of TOC boundaries rather than national ones - there should be a LM stopping service speperate from the ATW one on Sundays, as there is the rest of the week!

 

[87015]

But why does Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury need two TOCs running trains at badly co-ordinated times (as I say, four minutes apart at Shrewsbury)?

Wouldn't it be better to have one TOC running things, co-ordinating trains, sharing resources, with more incentive to improve services (since they'd get 100% of the ORCATS money)?

ATW already run service wholly within England (Shrewsbury - Crewe stoppers, Crewe - Chester shuttle), after all.

Why would it be any better co-ordinated under just LM? LM have two trains an hour from Wolverton to Northampton and run them four minutes apart. Good improvement on the previous half hourly clockface that.

Can't really see the logic in resourcing yet another route over a hundred miles away with units from CF when TS is there and not as over burdened.

 

[merlodlliw]

I woulkd argue that better co-ordination of services doesn't necessarily require the same TOC! For instance Swansea to Llanelli has departures at xx00 and xx05 some hours, both run by ATW. The reason for this is pathing the slower service behind the faster one, or at least it used to be, until the klatest timetable change.

As TDK says, it's a question of resources. Shrewsbury - Crewe does link up two places that are already importnat parts of the ATW network, both are train crew depots unless I am mistaken. It's the same with Chester - Crewe. I'm approaching things from the perspective of TOC boundaries rather than national ones - there should be a LM stopping service speperate from the ATW one on Sundays, as there is the rest of the week!

The Wales & Borders franchise is what it says, some parts of it are strange indeed, I recall Central Trains running Sunday trains Chester to Birmingham,and new ones too, I agree Ieuan Wyn Jones the Minister wields huge power, but acts like the County Cllr he once was, trouble is his boss Carwen Jones lets him get away with it,so much for devolved coalitionist WAG. I have yet to meet one person who thinks the airlink Anglesey to Cardiff is money well spent, that includes plaid supporters.

Too much is spent on eliteness rail in Wales, when it should be on the bread & butter services, like Salop to Aber.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The current tt from Salop to Brum is the result of DfT cutting in 2006. Before that there were 2 semi fasts (1 ATW/ 1 CT) from Shrewsbury to Birmingham evenly spaced that called at Wellington, Telford and Wolves only. There was an hourly Wellington to Walsall service that called at the smaller stations west of Wolverhampton. Daft cut the Wellington to Walsall service "to save money" and made the CT semi fast an all stations affair. The reason the tt is unbalanced is the greater journey time needed by all the stations service. ATW still run "fast"