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Bombardier £188m Order from Southern

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Schnellzug

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Hardly suprising lol. Would have been rather stupid to give the contract for units similar to 377s to a company that doesn't make them :P

I don't know, that was done with the Networkers (which did seem to work satisfactorily enough with 465.0s, 465.2s and so on from different manufacturers, unless there were problems and it was hushed up). Not to mention 1st generation DMUs and Blue Star MW equipped locos; and every US diesel loco that's ever been made.
 
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Electrostar

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If this order is a result of the delays in returning the 23 units on loan to First Capital Connect (Thameslink) what will happen to those once the new Thameslink trains come online?
 

DXMachina

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assuming they're dual-voltage like everything 3rd-rail is nowadays they'll find work easily and immediately. Plenty new electrification coming online in the next decade...
 

anthony263

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If this order is a result of the delays in returning the 23 units on loan to First Capital Connect (Thameslink) what will happen to those once the new Thameslink trains come online?

Some could be used to release some 4 carriage class 377's which southern will use to form 8 carriage trains on the Milton Keynes - East Croydon service.

providing the platforms on the west london line are extended to accomodate 8 carriage trains.
 

Fincra5

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If this order is a result of the delays in returning the 23 units on loan to First Capital Connect (Thameslink) what will happen to those once the new Thameslink trains come online?

Could just provide more units or replace some of the older units on the network... like 313s :D
 

Minstral25

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Some could be used to release some 4 carriage class 377's which southern will use to form 8 carriage trains on the Milton Keynes - East Croydon service.

providing the platforms on the west london line are extended to accomodate 8 carriage trains.

They can't - there are not enough dual voltage units

I understood these are to extend more services to 10 car and 12 car accross the network as required in their franchise agreement.
 

northwichcat

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I understood these are to extend more services to 10 car and 12 car accross the network as required in their franchise agreement.

The franchise requirement is for them to have the FCC 377s in operation on Southern routes for the December 2013 timetable change. They've ordered 38 extra carriages over what's required within their franchise requirement so the FCC 377s will, on paper, no longer be needed by the Southern franchise unless Southern release stock.
 

jopsuk

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It has been commented on twitter that today was the "1000th day"
 

HSTEd

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Course if we still had a facility for designing and building trains that was run by the railway itself we wouldn't have this problem.
Bombardier don't seem to do that much new design work, with the Turbostar/Electrostar basically derived from Networkers and Sprinters and the 22x family being mostly lifted from the "LRC" coaches built in the 70s.

And Siemens has its own issues, especially with its insanely overweight DMU designs.
 

HSTEd

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What would you rather be on in a colision though?

A lard butt desiro or a paper bag Mk1 based EMU or DMU?

Either way you aren't very likely to die.
It doesn't really make that much difference.
 

EM2

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According to Railnews these will be class 377/6 but look externally like class 379's. They will be otherwise compatible with the other class 377's.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/12/28-boost-for-derby-as-bombardier.html?
From that link:
Production of the 26 five-car sets will begin during the second half of 2012, and all must be delivered in time for the December 2013 timetable changes.
Is it me, or does eighteen months seems ridiculously quick to build and test 130 coaches?
 

jopsuk

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That's about how quick the 120 class 379 vehicles were built, tested and delivered wasn't it?
 

jon0844

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That's about how quick the 120 class 379 vehicles were built, tested and delivered wasn't it?

Aren't the 379s still being tested? In fact, aren't the 377/5s still being tested on an almost daily basis (especially since operating in 12-car formation)?!
 

jopsuk

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I stand corrected- though the 379s were additionally a "new" design, whilst this in theory is an "old" design
 

jon0844

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I thought even the 379s were of an old design (even though they have a newer look)? I presume these new trains will be based on a new post-379 build, as well as the new look that the 379s got, but built to be compatible with the old trains?

I can't possibly imagine any problems with that at all. :)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The BBC, on a slow news day, is repeating this news ad nauseam with very little real information.
It's following the sickening line that deserving "British" Bombardier lost the Thameslink deal unfairly to undeserving "German" Siemens, and this is the government redressing the balance.
What Justine Greening has just said is that the £80m government funding is subsidy to Southern to enable them to lease the vehicles, ie not a subsidy to Bombardier. Nevertheless it oils the wheels to secure the order.

I wonder if they will make quite such a song and dance when they announce the LM/TPE order for Siemens.
What I can't fathom is why Southern need 130 new vehicles at all.
I can't believe "Thameslink's running late" is a sufficient business case.
 

tbtc

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It has been commented on twitter that today was the "1000th day"

This is perhaps the most significant comment on the thread - which will only be appreciated in hindsight

Is it me, or does eighteen months seems ridiculously quick to build and test 130 coaches?

There was claim recently that it'd take eighteen months between the 317/8s leaving the East Anglian franchise and potentially being in service in "Lancashire" (not confirmed as happening, of course). In that light, eighteen months to build units sounds much faster
 

jopsuk

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as said, it's the 10-car south London metro program- thus why these are (probably) going to be five car units. it is somewhat related to the program with the 458s and mooted plan involving SWT getting the 456s to supplement their 455s- Southeastern of course already have their five car 376s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is perhaps the most significant comment on the thread - which will only be appreciated in hindsight
it has been confirmed by Captain Deltic himself. 999 days between confirmed orders- on the 1000th day, the minister delivered. This means the order drought is slightly shorter that the 94-97 pre-privatisation one- the figure that comes to mind is 1067
 
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tbtc

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it has been confirmed by Captain Deltic himself. 999 days between confirmed orders- on the 1000th day, the minister delivered. This means the order drought is slightly shorter that the 94-97 pre-privatisation one- the figure that comes to mind is 1067

Its a cynical world...

To be fair to our political masters (not that I'm normally a fan), the timing of this announcement is quite clever, not just to avoid people realising how long its been since the last order*, but also because there is very little in the news at the moment (Prince Phillip out of hospital, a shooting in Salford, a stabbing in London, nothing that would be *huge* news in a "normal" week), so the coalition get a "good news story" into the press, its been repeated in several bulletins I've heard today (radio/telly).

Maybe later someone will do the maths, realise its been a thousand days, maybe question why it costs well over £1,000,000 per coach, wonder why the busy London routes these EMUs will be used on require such huge subsidies, start to question why our fragmented railways are so expensive that they need such money throwing at them... but for now, Greening can bask in the positive headlines (no Labour MP is going to question why this is costing so much, because it'd be unpatriotic to question throwing all this money at Bombardier...)

(* - strange, considering how many electrification announcements we've had in the last couple of years - as it we don't need new EMUs to run on these newly electrified lines!)
 

Class377/5

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And buried in the DfT page is the first official news that Thameslink and Southern will now merge in July 2015 as the current Southern franchise will end on the 25th July 2015.
 

Peter Sarf

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iirc I think Bombardier wanted Southern to buy the newer 379s but Southern wanted 377s. So that is why Southern are getting an out of date design - they wanted it. It is only 11 years old and is STANDARD.

Windws 95. Who cares, it works and these trains are not going to be running online and/or multimedia software with loads of graphics intensive requirements. They dont need a top of the range operating system. I am a software developer and I cannot see any use for a newer operating system. Indeed using a newer version of Windows would introduce the very compatibility problems people are complaining about. I dont mind though - I make my living out of people who *think* they have to have the latest !.

iirc These new units are to be 5-car. I dont know if they might just be 378s as these are designed to work up to 5-car length (and it looks like LOROL are heading for that option). They are to make suburban services 10-car. They will cascade 4-car 377s onto longer distance work and free up 3-car 377s to work in pairs with other 4-car 377s to make more 10-car services. If they are 378s then I suspect they will cascade 455s onto outer suburan work which then cascades 4-car 377s etc etc.

These 130 coaches are needed because Southern have a franchise commitment to expand services by about Dec 2013. the 377/5s were intended to be returned to Southern by then but Siemens wont be delivering for the Thameslink services in time for that.

I call it Thameslink because that is what the punters who pay to use the service still call it so you can poke the mouthful glitsy thrusting marketing re-positioning thingy watsit stuff. Besides I am not a professional painter so I would prefer them to upgrade to Windows Vista :oops: rather than change the bloody name agan.

The delayed return of the 23 4-car 377/5s from Thameslink services will allow for further expansion of Southern services iirc. I think that might be the alterative time when the 3-car 377/3s start making 10-car services (3+3+4) if my memory was cheating me. But it will also free up the 456s to go to SWT where they will work with 455s to make 10-car services, presumably on the Wimbledon lines. I seem to remember that there are almost exactly the right number of 456s (i.e. twice as many SWT 455s). Oh and the 456s were supposed to be delivered new to the Waterloo lines circa 1992 anyway so thats only logical then ! (ignore the twenty years gap).

From what I have seen the 456s have never been used to lengthen 455 services on Southern. I have seen them working singly (London Bridge to Victoria shuttle) or as 4-car or 6-car on their own. Now, let me indulge myself. How about turning a 455 inside out and putting one 456 vehicle at each end. I better explain the 455s were built with inter-unit gangway connections but the 2-car 456s have none. This re-formation would form a 6 car unit with through gangway conections within. Southern cannot do that as they have blanked of the inter unit gangway connections on their 455s in an effort to steal the award for must ugly unit from the SWT 458s imho !.

The Windsor lines (platforms 3-6 at Clapham Junction) are going 10 car sooner courtesy of the disbanding / reforming of the similar class 460 units. Modern Railways always suggested that but it is now official. There are 8 8-car class 460s, 6 of the 460s will become 5-car thus donating 18 trailers (3 from each 460) to extend 18 of the 458s to 5-car. The remaining 12 458s will also get extended by using all 12 trailers from the last two 460s. The result will be 4 class 460 end coaches left over but undoubtedly a few accidents will make them useful eventually !.
 
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Fincra5

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And buried in the DfT page is the first official news that Thameslink and Southern will now merge in July 2015 as the current Southern franchise will end on the 25th July 2015.

Aye thats the rumours around the depot but it seems very likely. Going to be an odd few years.
 

swt_passenger

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I seem to remember that there are almost exactly the right number of 456s (i.e. twice as many SWT 455s).

Not quite, there are nearly four times as many SWT 455s (91) as there are 456s (24) so the 456s can only provide about half the requirement if all main line suburban services are to run as 10 car. This has always been the major weakness in the proposal, despite the regularity with which Modern Railways quotes it as the answer... :cry:

...The result will be 4 class 460 end coaches left over but undoubtedly a few accidents will make them useful eventually !

The four 'spare' end cars will have to donate all of their door mechanisms to replace the luggave van roller shutter doors in the other four ex-luggage cars - so they will be just about reduced to shells. Nevertheless it would be stupid to scrap the shells, but I suspect the bogies and traction electronics etc will be removed and go into the general spares pool. So they won't be instantly available in the event of an accident, but they'll allow for a rebuild.
 

Waddon

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I think it's a bit rich to say Bombardier has 'won' this contract as politically there's no way on earth that the government would have considered giving it to any other manufacturer after all the fuss over the Thameslink order... could you imagine the headlines if they had done so? The management at Bombardier must have been laughing, they could have bid any price they liked for this order. I wonder if any of the other manufacturers will kick up a fuss about an unfair tender arrangement? Not that I'm saying it was unfair, but they may well be able to suggest that if they knew they were never likely to win it?
 

Minstral25

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From what I have seen the 456s have never been used to lengthen 455 services on Southern. I have seen them working singly (London Bridge to Victoria shuttle) or as 4-car or 6-car on their own. Now, let me indulge myself. How about turning a 455 inside out and putting one 456 vehicle at each end. I better explain the 455s were built with inter-unit gangway connections but the 2-car 456s have none. This re-formation would form a 6 car unit with through gangway conections within. Southern cannot do that as they have blanked of the inter unit gangway connections on their 455s in an effort to steal the award for must ugly unit from the SWT 458s imho !.

The 456's often work in multiple with 455's to make 6 and 8 car trains. Often see them in that formation on Caterham/Tattenham trains

What I don't get is that the 455's will remain with Southern but can't be made up to 10 car units (which they can with the 456's). So what are they going to be used on after the 10 car metro railway commitment in 2013 without the 456's.

Strangely there is exactly enough 456's to make all the Southern 455's into 10 car units. Why are they not doing this?

Admittedly it works as well on SWT but you solve one problem (SWT's) you leave an alternative one on Southern and vice versa??
 

Peter Sarf

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Strangely there is exactly enough 456's to make all the Southern 455's into 10 car units. Why are they not doing this?

Admittedly it works as well on SWT but you solve one problem (SWT's) you leave an alternative one on Southern and vice versa??

I suppose that not all routes on Southern or SWT will go 10 car. Moving the 456s to SWT leaves both SWT and southern with some 455s to work the remaining 8-car (or less) services. Oh and the alternative would perhaps mean ordering more 450s - and that would not be fair would it ?<D.
 
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